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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 13:46:32
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Er...As I have a kid who's starting up this process this is interesting.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/12/03/national/a094426S19.DTL
(multiple pages - just quoted page 1)
Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
By JESSE WASHINGTON, AP National Writer
Associated Press December 3, 2011 10:40 AM Lanya Olmstead was born in Florida to a mother who immigrated from Taiwan and an American father of Norwegian ancestry. Ethnically, she considers herself half Taiwanese and half Norwegian. But when applying to Harvard, Olmstead checked only one box for her race: white.
"I didn't want to put `Asian' down," Olmstead says, "because my mom told me there's discrimination against Asians in the application process."
For years, many Asian-Americans have been convinced that it's harder for them to gain admission to the nation's top colleges.
Studies show that Asian-Americans meet these colleges' admissions standards far out of proportion to their 6 percent representation in the U.S. population, and that they often need test scores hundreds of points higher than applicants from other ethnic groups to have an equal chance of admission. Critics say these numbers, along with the fact that some top colleges with race-blind admissions have double the Asian percentage of Ivy League schools, prove the existence of discrimination.
The way it works, the critics believe, is that Asian-Americans are evaluated not as individuals, but against the thousands of other ultra-achieving Asians who are stereotyped as boring academic robots.
Now, an unknown number of students are responding to this concern by declining to identify themselves as Asian on their applications.
For those with only one Asian parent, whose names don't give away their heritage, that decision can be relatively easy. Harder are the questions that it raises: What's behind the admissions difficulties? What, exactly, is an Asian-American — and is being one a choice?
Olmstead is a freshman at Harvard and a member of HAPA, the Half-Asian People's Association. In high school she had a perfect 4.0 grade-point average and scored 2150 out of a possible 2400 on the SAT, which she calls "pretty low."
College applications ask for parent information, so Olmstead knows that admissions officers could figure out a student's background that way. She did write in the word "multiracial" on her own application.
Still, she would advise students with one Asian parent to "check whatever race is not Asian."
"Not to really generalize, but a lot of Asians, they have perfect SATs, perfect GPAs, ... so it's hard to let them all in," Olmstead says.
Amalia Halikias is a Yale freshman whose mother was born in America to Chinese immigrants; her father is a Greek immigrant. She also checked only the "white" box on her application.
"As someone who was applying with relatively strong scores, I didn't want to be grouped into that stereotype," Halikias says. "I didn't want to be written off as one of the 1.4 billion Asians that were applying."
Her mother was "extremely encouraging" of that decision, Halikias says, even though she places a high value on preserving their Chinese heritage.
"Asian-American is more a scale or a gradient than a discrete combination . I think it's a choice," Halikias says.
But leaving the Asian box blank felt wrong to Jodi Balfe, a Harvard freshman who was born in Korea and came here at age 3 with her Korean mother and white American father. She checked the box against the advice of her high school guidance counselor, teachers and friends.
"I felt very uncomfortable with the idea of trying to hide half of my ethnic background," Balfe says. "It's been a major influence on how I developed as a person. It felt like selling out, like selling too much of my soul."
"I thought admission wouldn't be worth it. It would be like only half of me was accepted."
Other students, however, feel no conflict between a strong Asian identity and their response to what they believe is injustice.
"If you know you're going to be discriminated against, it's absolutely justifiable to not check the Asian box," says Halikias.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/12/03/national/a094426S19.DTL#ixzz1flHkuI2I
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 14:00:46
Subject: Re:Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
On an Express Elevator to Hell!!
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I suppose you're fortunate there is no 'Dachshund' option on the form then Frazzled?
Personally I think any kind of application should be done entirely on merit. To do otherwise is a massive disservice to anyone else who worked had to achieve something, and cheapens the overall value of that achievement.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 14:28:34
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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[ARTICLE MOD]
Fixture of Dakka
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While there's some basis for that view, Pacific, it denies the fact that some people have to work much much harder to get a mediocre result than others have to work to get a good result.
Inner city American schools are, unfortunately, atrocious. Teachers in many of them spend all their time addressing behavioural issues, and not actually teaching. Kids from the inner city frequently come from families that don't value education, and/or have parents who are unable to assist their kids. Compare that to the wealthy kids with private tutors and you'll see why at least some consideration of circumstance is needed in a college admission process.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 15:06:16
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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Elite Tyranid Warrior
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Redbeard wrote:While there's some basis for that view, Pacific, it denies the fact that some people have to work much much harder to get a mediocre result than others have to work to get a good result.
Inner city American schools are, unfortunately, atrocious. Teachers in many of them spend all their time addressing behavioural issues, and not actually teaching. Kids from the inner city frequently come from families that don't value education, and/or have parents who are unable to assist their kids. Compare that to the wealthy kids with private tutors and you'll see why at least some consideration of circumstance is needed in a college admission process.
I came from a family that does value education but does not have the financial status to persue an education. Interestingly, neither of my parents could help me on my Algebra 2 homework in high school, much less my Physics for Scientists and Engineers 1 or Computer Orginization 2 work while in college. While I do agree, having a background that reflects poorly on education will greatly hinder the chances of a child or young adult to attempt trying higher education, I believe if the person is willing to move forward, there is always a way to achieve the goal. I believe I am an example of this.
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- 3000+
- 2000+
Ogres - 3500+
Protectorate of Menoth - 100+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 15:15:23
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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Preacher of the Emperor
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I can see what's being said about circumstances but at the same time while that might be fairer to one you're screwing over someone else to make it fair for them. So, you're really not making things more fair, you're just transferring the getting screwed to someone else who is... I dunno, more socioeconomically capable of taking being fethed by the system?
The issue with sub-standard schools and uncaring parents is something to address but I don't think the place to do it is about 12 years after the fact during the college admissions process.
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mattyrm wrote: I will bro fist a toilet cleaner.
I will chainfist a pretentious English literature student who wears a beret.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 15:23:41
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Zyllos wrote:Interestingly, neither of my parents could help me on my Algebra 2 homework in high school, much less my Physics for Scientists and Engineers 1 or Computer Orginization 2 work while in college.
Unless you are going into the same field, it isn't really all that telling that your parents can't help you with college level education in a field. I'm also willing to bet that in 20+ years you won't remember everything from Algebra 2 (unless of course, you become a math teacher, in which case i'll pick a different subject that seems obvious now but will lose detail as it becomes less a part of your life) that you don't use on a daily basis either. You have to remember, they haven't been going to school for a long time, where you are still in school, and have spent the majority of your life there still at this point. Sure there were the days of wine and roses at 0-5(ish), but since then it has been all school.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/06 15:25:24
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 15:28:41
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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[ARTICLE MOD]
Fixture of Dakka
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If there are finite number of spaces, someone is getting screwed, and there is no method that someone won't claim is unfair. If you come from a disadvantaged position, it is not fair to use straight scores. If you come from an advantaged position, it is not fair to have exceptions to straight scores. I think the current method, which reserves a small percentage of slots for those from the disadvantaged backgrounds is a reasonable compromise. Those from advantaged backgrounds who lose a place due to this were not in the top percentages compared to their peers, or they would have gotten those slots.
Consider a admission size of 1000. If you hold 10% of the slots for the disadvantaged, which you define to be the bottom 20% of the economic scale, then you have 900 slots for 80% of the population, and 100 slots for 20% of the population. Say the population size (applications for the slots) is 10,000. If you're from the advantaged side, you need to be in the top 11% of the advantaged to get in. If you're from the disadvantaged side, you need to be in the top 5% of the disadvantaged. It's not hard to argue that the person from the disadvantaged side needs to work harder to earn that slot, and the difference between straight testing scores can be attributed to environmental/systemic issues, rather than an unwillingness to try or inability to learn.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 16:09:45
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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I always wonder why Irish is on ethnicity forms...
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 17:34:33
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Because there used to be serious discrimination against Irish in the UK.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 17:36:33
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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Kilkrazy wrote:Because there used to be serious discrimination against Irish in the UK.
Yeah but now?
Why is it relevant to blood donation or anything else?
They aren't gonna give me money or say sorry for anything...
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 17:48:21
Subject: Re:Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Pacific wrote:
Personally I think any kind of application should be done entirely on merit. To do otherwise is a massive disservice to anyone else who worked had to achieve something, and cheapens the overall value of that achievement.
Do you take race and sex completely off the university admission forms?
What would happen if you did?
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DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 18:01:50
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought
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purplefood wrote:I always wonder why Irish is on ethnicity forms...
Aye KK has the right of it, plus, some Paddy's are ridiculously touchy about that type of thing, as are some ridiculously tiresome "Irish" Americans who are about as Irish as Cuba Gooding Junior.
Even Obama thinks he is Irish!
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We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 18:26:34
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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mattyrm wrote:purplefood wrote:I always wonder why Irish is on ethnicity forms...
Aye KK has the right of it, plus, some Paddy's are ridiculously touchy about that type of thing, as are some ridiculously tiresome "Irish" Americans who are about as Irish as Cuba Gooding Junior.
Even Obama thinks he is Irish! 
That always annoys me...
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 19:09:50
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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Race and ethnicity are nothing more than inaccurate social constructs anyway.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 20:07:25
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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Interesting stuff. Man, ever since I did my "intro to sociology" course for my ed diploma, this stuff has been blowing my mind. So many interdependent variables, so much chaos in the system. Give me a good old fashioned epidemic any day...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 21:30:52
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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purplefood wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Because there used to be serious discrimination against Irish in the UK.
Yeah but now?
Why is it relevant to blood donation or anything else?
They aren't gonna give me money or say sorry for anything...
Perhaps there are genetic diseases more prevalent in the Irish population, like Thalassaemia in the Greek population.
Normally the question does not have to be answered, anyway.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/06 21:34:14
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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Well, in the case of UK/Ireland blood donations, the UK's blood is actually "not as good" due to the CJD cases a few years ago (well, more like 2 decades ago now, nearly). There is no test that can be used to detect these prions, so in Ireland at least, blood donated by people from the UK from that time period is not accepted.
It could be something like that, perhaps related to the hepatitis issue that happened in Ireland in the 80s related to blood transfusion.
It's also useful to keep track of the Irish in the UK, as we are their largest immigrant population.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/07 07:39:28
Subject: Re:Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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Boosting Space Marine Biker
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Apply to multiple schools.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/07 08:55:11
Subject: Re:Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Every explanation I've ever heard for racial quotas for entrance exams that's ever made any kind of sense has ultimately come down to socio-economic position. That is, black people are typically less advantaged, so for a black guy to do almost as well as a white guy in his SAT is more impressive, and likely means he's very smart.
But if it's all about socio-economics, why not just look at that? Because while white people on the whole might be better off than black people on average, there's still plenty of white people that are dirt poor, and plenty of black people that are wealthy. So why not just look at someone's economic position, where they live, what school they attended, how much money their folk's made?
All that said, it remains disappointing that people continue to complain about whether to keep a clunky fix to a broken system, and no time at all talking about long term solutions to fixing that broken system, like committing the money needed to ensure a more consistent standard of teaching across all schools?
Because that clunky fix disadvantages the white majority, and so they hyper focus on just that one bit, all the while ignoring how much more money they make on average compared to black people. Privilege? This is it.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/07 10:34:45
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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In the UK some universities give preference to applicants who had free school meals. That is a key indicator of serious socio-economic disadvantage.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/07 13:57:01
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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I asked the nice nurse people at the donation place.
Irish is an ethnic group in the UK, or is counted as one,(Republic of Ireland not Northern Ireland) so it's on the ethnicity form...
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/07 15:48:01
Subject: Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check `Asian'
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Regular Dakkanaut
Dundee, Scotland (UK)
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Why didnt she just tick mixed race? To be honest I cant stand these questions, I hate ticking 'white' what is included in that? Native British, French, German what about Spaniards and Italians they included, there more coffee coloured  Its just stupid you should be taken for your ability not your ethnicity.
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