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I know they will fight the Imperium but are they bad guys? Will they murder entire human planets? Do they enslave people? I have read in the books that they sometimes ally up with the Imperium...

So if this is true how could they be bad?

I guess what I am asking would they needlessly kill billions of people like the Orks, Chaos, Nids etc...

Everyone in 40k is 'bad'. Defining bad is the problem. Tau have the dodging sterilising populations incidents. Eldar condemn people to death on a Farseer's whim.

In the grand scheme of things, they aren't as bad as most other folks. The Eldar are space elitist snobs, and will wipe out a human planet if some vague prophecy says they should. The plot of pretty much every Dawn of War has been "Humans go to planet X, Eldar say there's bad stuff there, fight them, and in their dying breaths tell the Imperials they made a big mistake". The Eldar don't seem in the business of slavery though.

Tau on the other hand, are all about enslaving planets. There's conjecture that the Fire Warriors themselves are even mind controlled by the Ethereals, and I'm sure that same control could pass on to other races. The Tau "allies" are often no more than glorified slaves. The Tau are big into strongarming people into alliances, often through threat of annihilation. The Gue'Vasa, while sometimes just Imperials who defect to the Tau, can also be Imperials who surrendered to escape getting killed.

However, neither Tau nor Eldar will just kill folks for the fun of it. They aren't on an endless buffet like the Tyranids, and don't revel in slaughter the way Orks or Chaos do.

Both of them have murdered entire planets. I think. I know the tau did it once, but I am not 100 about the eldar.

Oh most definitely the Eldar. They'd kill twenty million humans to save one Eldar. They'd kill two hundred million!

I could see saving their own race but if they were chillin in space and happened to run across a human planet would they be like yo fellow Tau or Eldar lets kill/attack that planet for no reason at all. Even if they were unprovoked?

No they wouldn't do that.

We all know the true good guys are the Necrons... I mean come on guys, they actually want unity... they just want the respect we... i mean.. they deserve

Brother SRM wrote:
Tau on the other hand, are all about enslaving planets. There's conjecture that the Fire Warriors themselves are even mind controlled by the Ethereals, and I'm sure that same control could pass on to other races. The Tau "allies" are often no more than glorified slaves. The Tau are big into strongarming people into alliances, often through threat of annihilation. The Gue'Vasa, while sometimes just Imperials who defect to the Tau, can also be Imperials who surrendered to escape getting killed.

Slavery, as it is practiced within the Imperium of Man as well as other domains, would indicate that the Tau actually "possess" their allies. They don't.
The closest rl analogue to the relationship between the Tau and their various allies would be, at least in my opinion, the early roman republic, with it's system of italian allies.

KingDeath wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:
Tau on the other hand, are all about enslaving planets. There's conjecture that the Fire Warriors themselves are even mind controlled by the Ethereals, and I'm sure that same control could pass on to other races. The Tau "allies" are often no more than glorified slaves. The Tau are big into strongarming people into alliances, often through threat of annihilation. The Gue'Vasa, while sometimes just Imperials who defect to the Tau, can also be Imperials who surrendered to escape getting killed.

Slavery, as it is practiced within the Imperium of Man as well as other domains, would indicate that the Tau actually "possess" their allies. They don't.
The closest rl analogue to the relationship between the Tau and their various allies would be, at least in my opinion, the early roman republic, with it's system of italian allies.

I imagine it's akin to Canada where they are part of the UK commonwealth, but they have there own government.

The comparison to Early Republican Rome and its Italian Allies is the way i think of it.....the only exception i think is that the Etherials will NEVER allow a human/Kroot/Vespid to reach the upper levels of Government. Italian allies over time became Romans...Humans are given a bit of leeway but would never be in the ruling councils

Are they Human? No. Then yes they are the badguys.

Imperial Doctrine

Eldar fight for their survival. Since they are dying out this is sort of a big deal. Unlike other races every life is extremely precious. If anything, they are gakkers, but having a god constantly hunger for your soul and looking at oblivion in the face can do that to you.

Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

Necroshea wrote:Eldar fight for their survival. Since they are dying out this is sort of a big deal. Unlike other races every life is extremely precious. If anything, they are gakkers, but having a god constantly hunger for your soul and looking at oblivion in the face can do that to you.

Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

Then your consideration is actualy wrong. The Tau do, in fact, not enslave you or anyone else. They will probably force you to join their growing empire ( just like all expanding societies did in history ) but slavery cannot be found within the Tau Empire. As it has been observed in the fluff they do not merely "spout on about a greater good". Their philosophy is not merely cheap propaganda they actualy life by it.
Just like the nascent Imperium decided to adopt the agressive unification of humanity as it's philosophy so did the Tau adopt the unification of the entire galaxy, for the good of all, as theirs.

Eldar constantly manipulate fate killing billions. Armaggedon 3 was their fault. Tau are the least "bad" though they are still Imperialists.

Tau really aren't, mankind would be better off under Tau rule then the current status quo and they might stand a chance at real progress.

Eldar have a genocidal self-centered bastard side to them that dominates their agenda though.

KingDeath wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Eldar fight for their survival. Since they are dying out this is sort of a big deal. Unlike other races every life is extremely precious. If anything, they are gakkers, but having a god constantly hunger for your soul and looking at oblivion in the face can do that to you.

Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

Then your consideration is actualy wrong. The Tau do, in fact, not enslave you or anyone else. They will probably force you to join their growing empire ( just like all expanding societies did in history ) but slavery cannot be found within the Tau Empire. As it has been observed in the fluff they do not merely "spout on about a greater good". Their philosophy is not merely cheap propaganda they actualy life by it.
Just like the nascent Imperium decided to adopt the agressive unification of humanity as it's philosophy so did the Tau adopt the unification of the entire galaxy, for the good of all, as theirs.

Unfortunately, the human PoWs from the Taros campaign were enslaved.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Eldar fight for their survival. Since they are dying out this is sort of a big deal. Unlike other races every life is extremely precious. If anything, they are gakkers, but having a god constantly hunger for your soul and looking at oblivion in the face can do that to you.

Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

Then your consideration is actualy wrong. The Tau do, in fact, not enslave you or anyone else. They will probably force you to join their growing empire ( just like all expanding societies did in history ) but slavery cannot be found within the Tau Empire. As it has been observed in the fluff they do not merely "spout on about a greater good". Their philosophy is not merely cheap propaganda they actualy life by it.
Just like the nascent Imperium decided to adopt the agressive unification of humanity as it's philosophy so did the Tau adopt the unification of the entire galaxy, for the good of all, as theirs.

Unfortunately, the human PoWs from the Taros campaign were enslaved.

Forced labour =/ slavery.
To elaborate. While forced labour is a part of being a slave the main difference is that a slave is also the property of someone else. Unlike the imperial PoW's became property, which is afaik unsuported by the fluff, they are "merely" prisoners which are forced to work in the mines, similar to some modern day prisoners which are used for all kinds of labour. So, to make it short, you can be unfree and you can be subject to forced labour, that does not necessarily make you a slave because you are not mere property.

Everyone is "bad" in their own way, some more than others in a sense.

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.

KingDeath wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Eldar fight for their survival. Since they are dying out this is sort of a big deal. Unlike other races every life is extremely precious. If anything, they are gakkers, but having a god constantly hunger for your soul and looking at oblivion in the face can do that to you.

Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

Then your consideration is actualy wrong. The Tau do, in fact, not enslave you or anyone else. They will probably force you to join their growing empire ( just like all expanding societies did in history ) but slavery cannot be found within the Tau Empire. As it has been observed in the fluff they do not merely "spout on about a greater good". Their philosophy is not merely cheap propaganda they actualy life by it.
Just like the nascent Imperium decided to adopt the agressive unification of humanity as it's philosophy so did the Tau adopt the unification of the entire galaxy, for the good of all, as theirs.

Unfortunately, the human PoWs from the Taros campaign were enslaved.

Forced labour =/ slavery.
To elaborate. While forced labour is a part of being a slave the main difference is that a slave is also the property of someone else. Unlike the imperial PoW's became property, which is afaik unsuported by the fluff, they are "merely" prisoners which are forced to work in the mines, similar to some modern day prisoners which are used for all kinds of labour. So, to make it short, you can be unfree and you can be subject to forced labour, that does not necessarily make you a slave because you are not mere property.

Prisoners implies a chance for release. Speculation on the Imperium's part is that they were given the chance to denounce the Imperium and join "The Greater Good" or become indentured servants (fancy word for slave) for those who felt they had been wrongly used by the Imperium.

It also makes a mention of "the slave has become the master" or something to that effect.

Kanluwen wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Eldar fight for their survival. Since they are dying out this is sort of a big deal. Unlike other races every life is extremely precious. If anything, they are gakkers, but having a god constantly hunger for your soul and looking at oblivion in the face can do that to you.

Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

Then your consideration is actualy wrong. The Tau do, in fact, not enslave you or anyone else. They will probably force you to join their growing empire ( just like all expanding societies did in history ) but slavery cannot be found within the Tau Empire. As it has been observed in the fluff they do not merely "spout on about a greater good". Their philosophy is not merely cheap propaganda they actualy life by it.
Just like the nascent Imperium decided to adopt the agressive unification of humanity as it's philosophy so did the Tau adopt the unification of the entire galaxy, for the good of all, as theirs.

Unfortunately, the human PoWs from the Taros campaign were enslaved.

Forced labour =/ slavery.
To elaborate. While forced labour is a part of being a slave the main difference is that a slave is also the property of someone else. Unlike the imperial PoW's became property, which is afaik unsuported by the fluff, they are "merely" prisoners which are forced to work in the mines, similar to some modern day prisoners which are used for all kinds of labour. So, to make it short, you can be unfree and you can be subject to forced labour, that does not necessarily make you a slave because you are not mere property.

Prisoners implies a chance for release. Speculation on the Imperium's part is that they were given the chance to denounce the Imperium and join "The Greater Good" or become indentured servants (fancy word for slave) for those who felt they had been wrongly used by the Imperium.

It also makes a mention of "the slave has become the master" or something to that effect.

Indentured servitude is not a fancy word for slave. A slave is property, an indentured servant is not. I can not locate the source of your quote. The only part which mentions the fate of the captured imperials says:
"The 17. and 89 Tallarn regiments had ceased to exist as coherent forces during the retreat, most of their men condemned to labour in Taros's mines for the Greater Good" (p.146).
In fact we do not even know if they were to do so for life. It sounds a bit like the fate of many german PoW's within soviet custody.

Indentured servitude very much is a fancy word for slave. One can be given a scale to work towards, but it's also very easy to set the scale to be one's entire life.

KingDeath wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Eldar fight for their survival. Since they are dying out this is sort of a big deal. Unlike other races every life is extremely precious. If anything, they are gakkers, but having a god constantly hunger for your soul and looking at oblivion in the face can do that to you.

Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

Then your consideration is actualy wrong. The Tau do, in fact, not enslave you or anyone else. They will probably force you to join their growing empire ( just like all expanding societies did in history ) but slavery cannot be found within the Tau Empire. As it has been observed in the fluff they do not merely "spout on about a greater good". Their philosophy is not merely cheap propaganda they actualy life by it.
Just like the nascent Imperium decided to adopt the agressive unification of humanity as it's philosophy so did the Tau adopt the unification of the entire galaxy, for the good of all, as theirs.

Tau fanboys (I'm not calling you this. Just people who defend them to the death) really need to read xenology. An inquisitor is interrogating an ethereal, and asks about farsight. Asking why is it that when he found himself without an ethereal due to it getting killed, he ran away instead of joining back in with the empire that's apparently so just and righteous. Why would he and those under him flee instead of coming back? Because the ethereals weren't there to make them come back.

First they send the water caste. If you don't join them, they send the fire caste and then they kill you. They can talk all day long about their greater good angle, but sorry, what they do is pretty damn evil to me.

Kanluwen wrote:Indentured servitude very much is a fancy word for slave. One can be given a scale to work towards, but it's also very easy to set the scale to be one's entire life.

Once again, just because you think both things are the same doesn't mean that you are right. An indentured servant is not property while a slave very much is property.
That both can, at times, suffer from similar living conditions ( in fact there were slaves which lived much better lifes than most free men )does not truly matter in that regard.

Lets not turn this into yet another tau thread.

Necroshea wrote:
Tau fanboys (I'm not calling you this. Just people who defend them to the death) really need to read xenology. An inquisitor is interrogating an ethereal, and asks about farsight. Asking why is it that when he found himself without an ethereal due to it getting killed, he ran away instead of joining back in with the empire that's apparently so just and righteous. Why would he and those under him flee instead of coming back? Because the ethereals weren't there to make them come back.

First they send the water caste. If you don't join them, they send the fire caste and then they kill you. They can talk all day long about their greater good angle, but sorry, what they do is pretty damn evil to me.

Farsight, at least in my opinion, run away because he wanted to be truly free. Noone argues that the Tau are a free society, on the contrary.
Of course Farsight is a singular case. There has been at least one other Tau commander ( Flamewing ) who lost his Etheral "supervisors" as well without abandoning the Empire.
If you wish to measure the Tau by modern standards then yes, they are the Evil Empire ( their etherals even wear robes...give in to your anger young Kais...).
By the rather insane 40k standards they are actualy quite friendly. They prefer to talk before they shoot and they generaly seem to value cooperation over mere subjugation

usmcmidn wrote:I know they will fight the Imperium but are they bad guys?

Fighting the Imperium doesn't make them bad guys, their actions do. The Imperium are definitely bad guys as well.

Will they murder entire human planets?

The Eldar will do so without hesitation if they feel they are trespassing/giving offense/etc or that it will save even a handful Eldar from some future calamity.

The Tau would do so only if they had no other choice, but they wouldn't have any issues bombing them back to the stone age from orbit if the Tau come to bring the Greater Good and the humans refuse.

Do they enslave people?

Eldar? Not really. Tau? Depends on what you consider enslavement.

I have read in the books that they sometimes ally up with the Imperium...

Yup

So if this is true how could they be bad?

Because they do bad things. The Eldar deflected Ghazkull to Armageddon to save a small number of their own people, resulting in a war that's ruined multiple worlds and seen millions upon millions slain. They wipe out colonies they consider to be trespassing on their sacred worlds and other such deeds. The Tau are nicer, but basically their stance is "You *will* join us, whether you want to or not, and if diplomacy fails, we won't hesitate to resort to war".

I guess what I am asking would they needlessly kill billions of people like the Orks, Chaos, Nids etc...

The Eldar? Yes. The Tau? Probably not unless it was necessary to prevent a greater loss of life.

On the good - evil scale, the Imperium and the Eldar are about even while the Tau are definitely closer to good than any other major race. While imperialistic, the Tau are no more tyrannical than Rome.

Eldar will kill entire worlds on a prophecy, the Imperium routinely commits genocide on planets found to contain alien civilizations, just to maintain human purity.

The Tau were supposed to be purged to make room for imperial colonies 6,000 years ago and were saved only by warp storms isolating their homeworld long enough to for them to become technologically advanced.

They are if you are human.