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Brother SRM wrote:In the grand scheme of things, they aren't as bad as most other folks. The Eldar are space elitist snobs, and will wipe out a human planet if some vague prophecy says they should. The plot of pretty much every Dawn of War has been "Humans go to planet X, Eldar say there's bad stuff there, fight them, and in their dying breaths tell the Imperials they made a big mistake". The Eldar don't seem in the business of slavery though.

Tau on the other hand, are all about enslaving planets. There's conjecture that the Fire Warriors themselves are even mind controlled by the Ethereals, and I'm sure that same control could pass on to other races. The Tau "allies" are often no more than glorified slaves. The Tau are big into strongarming people into alliances, often through threat of annihilation. The Gue'Vasa, while sometimes just Imperials who defect to the Tau, can also be Imperials who surrendered to escape getting killed.

However, neither Tau nor Eldar will just kill folks for the fun of it. They aren't on an endless buffet like the Tyranids, and don't revel in slaughter the way Orks or Chaos do.

Tau don't believe in slavery the way you seem to think they do. Kroot and Vespid are NOT slaves, and it was even stated in the codex that Vespids are highly honoured individuals in the tau empire.

Gue'vesa worlds are protectorates, not slave colonies.

And actually you'll recall that their 2 biggest allies, kroot and vespid, joined out gratitude and seeing eye-to-eye, respectively.

The alien is not intrinsically evil.

Do not hate him. Pity him his ignorance.

Seek to understand his differences

And acquaint him with his inadequacies.

Only then will he accept his place

in the Greater Good.

Note: No aggression towards xenos.

I have received your messages, acquainting me that these worlds belong to your Emperor, your master. In return I am to inform you that the said worlds belong to his Ethereal Majesty, Aun'O Bork'an Vral, my master, by right of settlement. Should you wish to gain similar rights you must submit yourselves to his wisdom as members of the Tau empire.

Note: Diplomacy, albeit unsubtle.

Stranger, I bid you greetings in the name of the Tau.

If you are reading this then you will have encountered one of our messengers drones and are therefore a spacefaring race. Soon you will see more evidence of us, this is no cause for alarm.

When you encounter one of our ships or outposts then welcome it. We have much to offer a faithful friend. We are five castes, one people. The earth caste build and manufacture, the air caste pilot and navigate, the water caste liase and arbitrate, the fire caste guard our holdings and defeat our enemies. All are bound to the dream of bringing a new way to the universe.

I hope you will choose to share the culture, technology and protection of the Tau empire.

The one constant in the universe is change, the wise adapt.

Believe in our destiny.

Note: this is the tau greeting an unknown alien species in the form of a message drone.

The Imperial counterpart would be PURGE THE HERETIC so all things considered they are most likely the most friendly race.

Eldar are also friendly enough, given the right circumstances. I can really on see them ever being friendly to non-imperial humans with no malicious intent, and tau.

OOOOOOOOO a tau-Eldar alliance would be quite epic, quite epic indeed.

Necroshea wrote:Tau fanboys (I'm not calling you this. Just people who defend them to the death) really need to read xenology. An inquisitor is interrogating an ethereal, and asks about farsight. Asking why is it that when he found himself without an ethereal due to it getting killed, he ran away instead of joining back in with the empire that's apparently so just and righteous. Why would he and those under him flee instead of coming back? Because the ethereals weren't there to make them come back.

Tau hatemongers (I'm not calling you this. Just people who attack them to death) need to consider that Xenology features ethereals with feet and most is written from the perspective of a mad inquisitor. And Farsight ran away because he committed a war crime (massacre) and wasn't ready to be made responsible for that.

When I say bad I dont mean the definition of the Imperium. Hell some Space Marines wo0uld be considered bad (Salamanders, with their keeping in touch with their old families and even seeing them on a basis, often showing mercy to xenos when on a crusade (The Salamander by Nick Kyme)).

My point when I say good guy was if they would needlessly kill people/other xenos (other tau, Eldar, or another friendlyish alien race) for not reason whatsoever other than the fact that they could.

usmcmidn wrote:When I say bad I dont mean the definition of the Imperium. Hell some Space Marines wo0uld be considered bad (Salamanders, with their keeping in touch with their old families and even seeing them on a basis, often showing mercy to xenos when on a crusade (The Salamander by Nick Kyme)).

My point when I say good guy was if they would needlessly kill people/other xenos (other tau, Eldar, or another friendlyish alien race) for not reason whatsoever other than the fact that they could.

Well, no, they wouldn't kill other sentient species for no reason at all. The Eldar seem to prefer to ignore the "lesser" species ( Eldar Corsairs on the other hand can be nearlyas cruel as the Dark Eldar ) while the Tau built their entire philosophy arout unifying all sentient species under their Greater Good.
Even the Imperium, by all standards a dystopian hellhole, does not commit genocide just because they feel like it. From an imperial perspective all other sentient
species are a threat to mankind's very survival, either now or later. While this sentiment might not be completely right, experience has taught them that quite a few alien species
are in fact hostile to human life.

Kroothawk wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Tau fanboys (I'm not calling you this. Just people who defend them to the death) really need to read xenology. An inquisitor is interrogating an ethereal, and asks about farsight. Asking why is it that when he found himself without an ethereal due to it getting killed, he ran away instead of joining back in with the empire that's apparently so just and righteous. Why would he and those under him flee instead of coming back? Because the ethereals weren't there to make them come back.

Tau hatemongers (I'm not calling you this. Just people who attack them to death) need to consider that Xenology features ethereals with feet and most is written from the perspective of a mad inquisitor. And Farsight ran away because he committed a war crime (massacre) and wasn't ready to be made responsible for that.

Clever

And actually, the reason Farsight ran away was because GW needed a reason for tau to be able to fight tau on the TT. Right now, the only matchup that makes no sense is kroot mercs against Tau.

usmcmidn wrote:I know they will fight the Imperium but are they bad guys?

It depends, they are not more evil then Humans. Eldar look only after themselves and Tau want's to rule over all others.

Will they murder entire human planets?

Armageddon and Nimbosa.

Do they enslave people?

Eldar sold Human Governor to Dark Eldar and Tau used Taros POW to work until death in mines.

I have read in the books that they sometimes ally up with the Imperium...

Desperate times = desperate measures.

So if this is true how could they be bad?

Everybody are bad in it's own way. Eldar are too selfish and Tau are too controllable.

I guess what I am asking would they needlessly kill billions of people like the Orks, Chaos, Nids etc...

You are right, they kill only when they have to - just like the Imeprium.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Tau fanboys (I'm not calling you this. Just people who defend them to the death) really need to read xenology. An inquisitor is interrogating an ethereal, and asks about farsight. Asking why is it that when he found himself without an ethereal due to it getting killed, he ran away instead of joining back in with the empire that's apparently so just and righteous. Why would he and those under him flee instead of coming back? Because the ethereals weren't there to make them come back.

Tau hatemongers (I'm not calling you this. Just people who attack them to death) need to consider that Xenology features ethereals with feet and most is written from the perspective of a mad inquisitor. And Farsight ran away because he committed a war crime (massacre) and wasn't ready to be made responsible for that.

Clever

And actually, the reason Farsight ran away was because GW needed a reason for tau to be able to fight tau on the TT. Right now, the only matchup that makes no sense is kroot mercs against Tau.

Too bad they haven't actually fought any battles. Same with tau and Eldar. As far as I know, they haven't had any battles.

nomotog wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Tau fanboys (I'm not calling you this. Just people who defend them to the death) really need to read xenology. An inquisitor is interrogating an ethereal, and asks about farsight. Asking why is it that when he found himself without an ethereal due to it getting killed, he ran away instead of joining back in with the empire that's apparently so just and righteous. Why would he and those under him flee instead of coming back? Because the ethereals weren't there to make them come back.

Tau hatemongers (I'm not calling you this. Just people who attack them to death) need to consider that Xenology features ethereals with feet and most is written from the perspective of a mad inquisitor. And Farsight ran away because he committed a war crime (massacre) and wasn't ready to be made responsible for that.

Clever

And actually, the reason Farsight ran away was because GW needed a reason for tau to be able to fight tau on the TT. Right now, the only matchup that makes no sense is kroot mercs against Tau.

Too bad they haven't actually fought any battles. Same with tau and Eldar. As far as I know, they haven't had any battles.

I know that the enclaves haven't fought the Empire; but it is a plausible reason.

Also, IIRC, the tau and Eldar have had exactly 0 contact of any kind. Though if Eldrad's thoughts on the matter are anything to go by, I think it could potentially be the only major (tau aren't quite major yet, but who knows? this storyline won't go farther until the next codex, and after the fourth sphere expansion...) faction alliance in 40k, provided:
A. Vior'la/Sa'cea Do not take place in Tau diplomacy

B. Biel-tan does not take place in Eldar diplomacy

C. DE don't meet tau first, because after the DE, I am betting that any tau would kill an Eldar on sight.

I could have sworn the tau and eldar have meet. The tau did do a few battles with the DE.

The Tau approach to warfare is actually pretty close to the modern equivalent of today's civilized countries. Commanders are expected to defeat their enemies but are limited in what they are allowed to do morally to do so.


For example, the commander who systematically eradicated the human forces on that one planet was sent back to Tau for re-education of sorts. Even when an enemy invades, the Tau respect the Greater Good and the preservation of life - for selfish reasons but such selfishness is a necessary evil.

So when an enemy comes down to one of their planets and they overcome that enemy and can force it to surrender, its a grave offense for them to simply execute that enemy totally. More or less, similar to Western ideals vs middle east situation, the Tau just feel that everyone else is desperately ignorant and in need of their guidance.



Subduing people is a basic necessity for any large society, however. As a member of society we're all expected to set aside personal aspirations or emotions in order to operate smoothly. The Tau are like an exaggerated version of this.

correlation2 wrote:The Tau approach to warfare is actually pretty close to the modern equivalent of today's civilized countries. Commanders are expected to defeat their enemies but are limited in what they are allowed to do morally to do so.


For example, the commander who systematically eradicated the human forces on that one planet was sent back to Tau for re-education of sorts. Even when an enemy invades, the Tau respect the Greater Good and the preservation of life - for selfish reasons but such selfishness is a necessary evil.

So when an enemy comes down to one of their planets and they overcome that enemy and can force it to surrender, its a grave offense for them to simply execute that enemy totally. More or less, similar to Western ideals vs middle east situation, the Tau just feel that everyone else is desperately ignorant and in need of their guidance.

Subduing people is a basic necessity for any large society, however. As a member of society we're all expected to set aside personal aspirations or emotions in order to operate smoothly. The Tau are like an exaggerated version of this.

Excpet our modern warfare doesn't include press ganging the survivors of invasion into battle and throw their allies in front of the enemy so that we can fire away from a safe distance.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

correlation2 wrote:The Tau approach to warfare is actually pretty close to the modern equivalent of today's civilized countries. Commanders are expected to defeat their enemies but are limited in what they are allowed to do morally to do so.


For example, the commander who systematically eradicated the human forces on that one planet was sent back to Tau for re-education of sorts. Even when an enemy invades, the Tau respect the Greater Good and the preservation of life - for selfish reasons but such selfishness is a necessary evil.

So when an enemy comes down to one of their planets and they overcome that enemy and can force it to surrender, its a grave offense for them to simply execute that enemy totally. More or less, similar to Western ideals vs middle east situation, the Tau just feel that everyone else is desperately ignorant and in need of their guidance.

Subduing people is a basic necessity for any large society, however. As a member of society we're all expected to set aside personal aspirations or emotions in order to operate smoothly. The Tau are like an exaggerated version of this.

Excpet our modern warfare doesn't include press ganging the survivors of invasion into battle and throw their allies in front of the enemy so that we can fire away from a safe distance.

Except tau warfare doesn't do that either. There is a lovely quote in the codex that states that tau warfare doesn't even recognize the concept of expendable troops. No meatgrinder.

KingDeath wrote:Forced labour =/ slavery.
To elaborate. While forced labour is a part of being a slave the main difference is that a slave is also the property of someone else. Unlike the imperial PoW's became property, which is afaik unsuported by the fluff, they are "merely" prisoners which are forced to work in the mines, similar to some modern day prisoners which are used for all kinds of labour. So, to make it short, you can be unfree and you can be subject to forced labour, that does not necessarily make you a slave because you are not mere property.

Semantics at its finest.

Regardless of how you want to play with definitions, is the practice of endless forced labor any "better" than slavery? I mean, the question of this thread is whether or not the Tau are "bad guys", not "What's the definition of slavery?" In the end, despite the more "good" angle the Tau have been cast in is a sham. They are just as ruthless and self-serving as the Imperium, just without the resources to be as oppressive and overbearing. Life in the Imperium isn't as bad as it is sometimes made out to be, and life in the Tau Empire isn't as fun and happy as it is sometimes made out to be. "The Greater Good" is really as much of an "Our Way or the Highway" as the Imperium's philosophy, it just has more options for joining the "Our Way".

In the end, the Tau are still too idealistic and naive to be as pragmatic as the Imperium is.

It's amusing to see something said about pragmatism when you consider the Tau are aware that a few spoken words can do more damage than a few thousand Fire Warriors and the Imperium... isn't.

Not to say one is better than the other, I just thought it was a funny thing to read.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Regardless of how you want to play with definitions, is the practice of endless forced labor any "better" than slavery?

On a mining planet you can only do two things: Kill Tau (soldier) or do mining (worker). Tau decided that the humans better do mining

Under the Geneva Convention POWs can be required to do work which doesn't directly aid the captors' war effort, however they must be paid.

From Wikipedia:

Labour of prisoners of war

Articles 27 to 34 cover labour by prisoners of war. Work must fit the rank and health of the prisoners. The work must not be war-related and must be safe work. Remuneration will be agreed between the Belligerents and will belong to the prisoner who carries out the work.

I don't know how the human labour force was organised in Taros.

usmcmidn wrote: Will they murder entire human planets? Do they enslave people?

Oddly, you just described what the imperium does. The Imperium are not good guys. At all....

usmcmidn wrote:I guess what I am asking would they needlessly kill billions of people like the Orks, Chaos, Nids etc...

Given that there are trillions of humans, and they breed like rabbits compared to Eldar.....yes, they would if it saved just a few Eldar lives.

Now Dark Eldar....thats a different story. Creatures that suck the life essence (ie, soul) out of other living creatures to prolong their lives is pretty damn evil.

Of course they're both evil!

Tau want to conquer the galaxy and make themselves first among equals because they believe all the other races need to be saved from their own barbarism and ignorance with good tau order and technology. Sound familiar? It should, its a readaptation of 'the white man's burden' that was used to justify European Imperialism in the 19th century against non-European civilisations. You basically argue that even if you conquer them it will turn out to be better since your rule will be more beneficial and enlightened than if people ruled themselves.

They also mind control the Vespid, Brightsword commited a genocide on the human population of a world after it refused to surrender and in Dark Crusade they sterilised the human population. They are either extremely arrogant/nieve, or they're total . You could say since they're closest to a real life Empire they're nice-er but not that they're the good guys.

Eldar only care about themselves, the rest of the galaxy can burn and some craftworlds like Biel Tan openly want to exterminate humanity in what they see as their Empire.

>>They also mind control the Vespid

It's a speculative remark made by an Imperial observer without anything to substantiate it.

>>Brightsword commited a genocide on the human population of a world after it refused to surrender

He shot up a military convoy he had trapped in a ravine. It wasn't very nice and he should have accepted their surrender. He was recalled and punished.

>>in Dark Crusade they sterilised the human population

They put the ones who would not swear allegiance into PoW camps. The population ratio changed because Tau colonists came to the planet.

Kilkrazy wrote:
They put the ones who would not swear allegiance into PoW camps. The population ratio changed because Tau colonists came to the planet.

IIRC they said nothing about allegiances in the extro (but I could be wrong), however it did mention that the humans were eventually dwindled to irrelevance, though I haven't seen it in a couple years and I can't use sound at work for da yuutubez.

If Europe had never subjugated North America, the USA and Canada would never have existed, and the safe bastions of technology and air force training would never have been available to Allied forces during the World Wars.

Women in the middle east would have virtually no hope of equal rights, education, and such that they only barely get now because of the intervention of western countries.


You can argue that the advance of science, technology, and society is bad all you want. You can cry as many tears as you want for the discman because it got replaced by the mp3 player. That's just silly sentiment.

The fact of the matter is that Native Americans, like underdeveloped or ignorant aliens in the 40k fluff, would not enjoy the longevity and security of our great nations if our nations had not been funded. They would not receive billions of dollars and plots of land with the right to practice historical beliefs if a less graceful society had removed them. They are, by all accounts, lucky to live in the most precious continent in the world.



Any person who disagrees with this is free to wander into the bush and live a short, hard, dangerous life without education or access to things like running water and electricity. They are free to be scared, hungry, superstitious, and ultimately useless to the advancement of humanity.

This parallel can easily be drawn in the fluff between the Tau and other races. Those individuals are free to choose death or worse, but, their selfishness - the needs of the few - will not outweigh the needs of the many.

FOR THE GREATER GOOD.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Eldar only care about themselves, the rest of the galaxy can burn and some craftworlds like Biel Tan openly want to exterminate humanity in what they see as their Empire.

Far from the truth. They see themselves as the natural inheritors and guardians of the galaxy, and may even go to quite some extent to safeguard human colonies against chaos' taint - however, they also suffer from near-perfect consequence analysis, and they will know that many times the civil actions of dialogue and communication may make the situation worse or delay the necessary response (edit: the human administration's natural tendency to corruption and mistrust isn't exactly helpful, either). Add on to this that humans are only civilized neighbors at best of times, only preferable to most of the galaxy by degrees of belligerence, I have no doubt that many Eldar craftworlds would act unselfishly towards colonies of non-extremist humans, etc. (Good neighbors are useful, after all)
Most, not all. The difference between craftworlds both in terms of culture, technology, strategy in warfare, as well as disposition to outsiders are greatly varied. Saim-Hann can't even be counted on to help even other Craftworlders while Alaitoc would follow prophecy to a fault.

As an example, a human colonized Maiden World is attacked by forces of chaos. Saim-Hann may ignore the conflict completely, Ulthwé may seize the opportunity to strategically take out potent chaos commanders, Alaitoc may largely help the human population but will not stoop at exterminating potential threats for future Eldar among the human forces, Il-Kaithe would not rest until the taint of chaos has been wiped out on the planet and may even help the human Inquisition covertly in their post-battle efforts, Biel-Tan are likely to take the opportunity to strike while both forces are in a pitched situation to wipe out all human/chaos "life" from the planet in question, and so on.

correlation2 wrote:If Europe had never subjugated North America, the USA and Canada would never have existed, and the safe bastions of technology and air force training would never have been available to Allied forces during the World Wars.

Women in the middle east would have virtually no hope of equal rights, education, and such that they only barely get now because of the intervention of western countries.


You can argue that the advance of science, technology, and society is bad all you want. You can cry as many tears as you want for the discman because it got replaced by the mp3 player. That's just silly sentiment.

The fact of the matter is that Native Americans, like underdeveloped or ignorant aliens in the 40k fluff, would not enjoy the longevity and security of our great nations if our nations had not been funded. They would not receive billions of dollars and plots of land with the right to practice historical beliefs if a less graceful society had removed them. They are, by all accounts, lucky to live in the most precious continent in the world.



Any person who disagrees with this is free to wander into the bush and live a short, hard, dangerous life without education or access to things like running water and electricity. They are free to be scared, hungry, superstitious, and ultimately useless to the advancement of humanity.

This parallel can easily be drawn in the fluff between the Tau and other races. Those individuals are free to choose death or worse, but, their selfishness - the needs of the few - will not outweigh the needs of the many.

FOR THE GREATER GOOD.

The Eldar and Tau are way more good than all the other factions in 40k. Sure the Eldar kill a lot of humans, but it's either to save themselves or to prevent massive future disasters that could harm more than them. The galaxy would surely have been fethed up if not for Eldar manipulation. The Imperium kills a lot of xenos, even exterminate entire species, simply because they are not human. Sounds familiar? Kind of reminds me of that guy from WW2...

Totalwar1402 wrote:Tau want to conquer the galaxy and make themselves first among equals because they believe all the other races need to be saved from their own barbarism and ignorance with good tau order and technology. Sound familiar? It should, its a readaptation of 'the white man's burden' that was used to justify European Imperialism in the 19th century against non-European civilisations. You basically argue that even if you conquer them it will turn out to be better since your rule will be more beneficial and enlightened than if people ruled themselves.

Bravo sir. That's probably the best, most succinct examination of the Tau I've seen.

Kanluwen wrote:Indentured servitude very much is a fancy word for slave. One can be given a scale to work towards, but it's also very easy to set the scale to be one's entire life.

Intentured servitude is not the same thing as slavery. It is quite possible to set the conditions so that a particular instance is exactly the same as slavery, but that's no different than saying that captialism is the same as slavery because you can set up company towns to produce the same result.

The... Tau aren't first in anything though. They have the exact same position as everyone else.

This kind of reminds me of the Mandalorians from Star Wars or whatever. The planet had all kinds of beings on it, and they were all Mandalorians, because it was a method of thinking as opposed to some specific biological makeup.


There's a pretty obvious distinction between the Tau and the Ethereals. The Ethereals share a similar appearance and that seems to be about it. They aren't described as being known of in any of the initial would-be-caste societies or anything like that. They are the bringers of the Greater Good and instill the ideology in their servants.

To say the Ethereals epitomize the benign tyrant is fair, but the Ethereals take advantage of the Tau - the Tau aren't the Ethereals.

I for one want to be protected against Chaos's "taint".

Totalwar1402 wrote:Of course they're both evil!

Tau want to conquer the galaxy and make themselves first among equals because they believe all the other races need to be saved from their own barbarism and ignorance with good tau order and technology. Sound familiar? It should, its a readaptation of 'the white man's burden' that was used to justify European Imperialism in the 19th century against non-European civilisations. You basically argue that even if you conquer them it will turn out to be better since your rule will be more beneficial and enlightened than if people ruled themselves.

They also mind control the Vespid, Brightsword commited a genocide on the human population of a world after it refused to surrender and in Dark Crusade they sterilised the human population. They are either extremely arrogant/nieve, or they're total . You could say since they're closest to a real life Empire they're nice-er but not that they're the good guys..

Actually, if you even read the codices, tau originally expanded because they realized a single stellar event or supernova or whatever, could destroy their entire species. So they want more holdings. Could a supernova destroy the IoM? No. Even if Sol were destroyed.

And they do not mind control Vespid, that is speculation on the part of the Imperial Observer.
And Brightsword did not commit genocide. He simply used brutal battle tactics and wiped the enemy out to a man, which is why he was court-marshalled.
No one was ever sterilized. In the non-canon ending of a video game, Imperial Observers speculated that that could be it. Or, you know, it could be the fact that they were separated by gender into camps, which would kinda explain the population dwindling.


They are by far the least-evil faction in 40k.

That court-marshal on Brightsword happened with the aim of preventing a war with the IoM. Preventing. A. War.

When has anyone else tried to stop a war from happening.

Kilkrazy wrote:
>>They also mind control the Vespid

It's a speculative remark made by an Imperial observer without anything to substantiate it.

>>Brightsword commited a genocide on the human population of a world after it refused to surrender

He shot up a military convoy he had trapped in a ravine. It wasn't very nice and he should have accepted their surrender. He was recalled and punished.

>>in Dark Crusade they sterilised the human population

They put the ones who would not swear allegiance into PoW camps. The population ratio changed because Tau colonists came to the planet.

Speculative means its up to the player and that either could be true, much like how they're vague on Farsight.

Before Brightsword attacks the convoy, he wipes out the planets population because they resisted him, not just military but the whole planet.

No, the ratio didn't change, they all but died out and its heavily hinted that sterilization was the cause. At any rate using colonists to displace the native society is an evil in its own right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

correlation2 wrote:The... Tau aren't first in anything though. They have the exact same position as everyone else.

This kind of reminds me of the Mandalorians from Star Wars or whatever. The planet had all kinds of beings on it, and they were all Mandalorians, because it was a method of thinking as opposed to some specific biological makeup.

The codex has a heading that states 'First among equals', also if the ruling caste are all Tau and they aren't elected then you know.