Are the Tau and Eldar really "bad" guys?

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**KamikazeCanuck**

Luke_Prowler wrote:
correlation2 wrote:If Europe had never subjugated North America, the USA and Canada would never have existed, and the safe bastions of technology and air force training would never have been available to Allied forces during the World Wars.

Women in the middle east would have virtually no hope of equal rights, education, and such that they only barely get now because of the intervention of western countries.

You can argue that the advance of science, technology, and society is bad all you want. You can cry as many tears as you want for the discman because it got replaced by the mp3 player. That's just silly sentiment.

The fact of the matter is that Native Americans, like underdeveloped or ignorant aliens in the 40k fluff, would not enjoy the longevity and security of our great nations if our nations had not been funded. They would not receive billions of dollars and plots of land with the right to practice historical beliefs if a less graceful society had removed them. They are, by all accounts, lucky to live in the most precious continent in the world.

Any person who disagrees with this is free to wander into the bush and live a short, hard, dangerous life without education or access to things like running water and electricity. They are free to be scared, hungry, superstitious, and ultimately useless to the advancement of humanity.

This parallel can easily be drawn in the fluff between the Tau and other races. Those individuals are free to choose death or worse, but, their selfishness - the needs of the few - will not outweigh the needs of the many.

FOR THE GREATER GOOD.

Yeah, that came out of nowhere. Native Americans in Canada and America do not enjoy an increased quality of life since European contact I can tell you that. Seems a little off-topic anyway.

**Kroothawk**

Totalwar1402 wrote:Before Brightsword attacks the convoy, he wipes out the planets population because they resisted him, not just military but the whole planet.

That is a good description why he was sacked. So punishing genocides is evil now?

Totalwar1402 wrote:No, the ratio didn't change, they all but died out and its heavily hinted that sterilization was the cause. At any rate using colonists to displace the native society is an evil in its own right.

Men and women are living in separate camps. Ask Mom and Dad, why there are less children, when men and women don't meet. BTW this ending of a non-GW-game took place in an alternative timeline, and sterilization is presented as the third likeliest explanation by the Imperial narrator. And the next supplement of the same game features an ending, where Sororitas cull the Imperial Guard AND Space Marines on the planet, so ...

**Kilkrazy**

So Brightsword wiped out the whole population.

Then he attacked a convoy.

Yes.

I see.

**usmcmidn**

Kilkrazy wrote:So Brightsword wiped out the whole population.

Then he attacked a convoy.

Yes.

I see.

Totally off topic... but i cant stop looking at ur avatar... Shes gorgeous and xmas spirit. Lovin it hahaha.

**forruner_mercy**

Following Coolio's example...

No.

Everyone are bad guys.

**DoctorZombie**

Necroshea wrote:Eldar fight for their survival. Since they are dying out this is sort of a big deal. Unlike other races every life is extremely precious. If anything, they are gakkers, but having a god constantly hunger for your soul and looking at oblivion in the face can do that to you.

Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

I'd say the Tau are like the Imperium. There's nuggets of good in each race, but as a whole they're not exactly "good".

**monkeypuzzle**

Compared to the Imperium they are not. The Imperium kills more living things than all other races put together probably! No race is goody goody but Eldar and Tau are nowhere near as bad as many. The Imperium is as bad as Chaos really!

**im2randomghgh**

monkeypuzzle wrote:Compared to the Imperium they are not. The Imperium kills more living things than all other races put together probably! No race is goody goody but Eldar and Tau are nowhere near as bad as many. The Imperium is as bad as Chaos really!

Or even worse.

**LeetBix**

This is a grim dark future. There is only war, and war from anybody's perspective (aside from some of the more perverse individuals and races) is hardly a good thing. There is no 'good' only various shades of grey, of which the Tau probably have the lightest of which, yet still have that lovely pinch of grimdark that is mandatory to all races of 40k.

But having said that, while Tau and Eldar are hardly 'good', they are the closest things (perhaps the Imperium could be included here) 40k has to 'good guys' (aside from the Reasonable Marines of course!).

**dalsiandon**

The better question to ask is Who are the good guys? Because quite frankly the Imperium of man sure isn't. Maybe if the Heresy hadn't happened and the emperor was still in power doing his thing, but that's speculative as well considering some of his choices of action.

**Sparks_Havelock**

dalsiandon wrote:The better question to ask is Who are the good guys?

That question is easy to answer though. Nobody. There is no good, there is no evil, merely shades of grey. Survival is key to each race and they'll do whatever they need to if they're going to survive. If you look at it with our perspectives, our outlooks, our views, then each and every race is evil, but to them it is whatever it takes to survive.

**KamikazeCanuck**

There's plenty of evil. Chaos and Dark Eldar are just evil for the sake of being evil and make no apologies for it.

**Veteran Sergeant**

im2randomghgh wrote:
monkeypuzzle wrote:Compared to the Imperium they are not. The Imperium kills more living things than all other races put together probably! No race is goody goody but Eldar and Tau are nowhere near as bad as many. The Imperium is as bad as Chaos really!

Or even worse.

Good Lord. Lack of perspective much?

**Kilkrazy**

First, define Evil.

**usmcmidn**

Well I mean most Imperial SM chapters are good right?

I mean I have read the Salamanders will Sacrifice its Marines for civilians and other chapters do it as well (Ultra, Mantis, Sharks etc...)

Arnt Imperial Guard supposed to look over Imperial opoulations as well?

I can see the inquisition and SB being somewhat evil and extremist who would kill if they sensed a bit of heretic which to them could b everyone even some SM.

Or am I totally wrong? And would they just randomly destroy an Eldar planet or Tau Planet? ? ?

**KingDeath**

usmcmidn wrote:Well I mean most Imperial SM chapters are good right?

I mean I have read the Salamanders will Sacrifice its Marines for civilians and other chapters do it as well (Ultra, Mantis, Sharks etc...)

Arnt Imperial Guard supposed to look over Imperial opoulations as well?

I can see the inquisition and SB being somewhat evil and extremist who would kill if they sensed a bit of heretic which to them could b everyone even some SM.

Or am I totally wrong? And would they just randomly destroy an Eldar planet or Tau Planet? ? ?

Of course they would if given the chance. Mainly because there is nothing random about destroying alien planets. Imperial doctrine holds that all aliens need to be
purged so that mankind's galactic domain will be forever save. Of course in practise not all alien species are wiped out on sight. This can have several reasons.
Some alien species are too well protected and therefore ( at least for the moment ) too costly to attack for comparatively little gain ( Tau, Eldar, various Ork Empires and the like ).
Other species might be too harmless to justify the deployment of sufficient forces to wipe them out. After all, every warship that is used to bomb some harmless stone age alien civilisation could
be put to better use against a more dangerous foe.
The homeworlds of other species, like the RakhGol and the Dark Eldar, are unknown or simply too well hidden to attack.

Regarding the Spacemarines, with a few exceptions Spacemarines aren't nice or friendly. They are made to protect the Emperor's domain by all means necessary and not to cuddle civilians.
While some chapters seem to forget this, others ( Black Templars, Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Marines Malevolent, Space Sharks, Mortifactors, Minotaurs, just to name a few ) don't care too much about a collateral damage as long as the chapter's actual mission is accomplished.

**usmcmidn**

Ah I see... But I read somewhere the Space Sharks have a similar philosophy as the Salamanders... Wouldnt they "cuddle" civilians then?

I also read that the Salamanders and Imperial Guard know where Commorragh is. When the Dark Eldar took one of the Salamanders Strike Cruisers they wanted it back and raided the hive with some Imperil Guard and left it in ruins. As told by the entry in Lexicanum Commorragh Raid. Now if one chapter and some Guard were to do it once why dont they do it for good and wipe it out now instead of having to deal with the DE over and over again? ? ?

I no thats off topic but...

**KingDeath**

usmcmidn wrote:Ah I see... But I read somewhere the Space Sharks have a similar philosophy as the Salamanders... Wouldnt they "cuddle" civilians then?

I also read that the Salamanders and Imperial Guard know where Commorragh is. When the Dark Eldar took one of the Salamanders Strike Cruisers they wanted it back and raided the hive with some Imperil Guard and left it in ruins. As told by the entry in Lexicanum Commorragh Raid. Now if one chapter and some Guard were to do it once why dont they do it for good and wipe it out now instead of having to deal with the DE over and over again? ? ?

I no thats off topic but...

The Spacesharks in IA 9/10 are utterly savage and merciless. The Commorragh Raid is a bit more complex. The Salamanders + allies were tricked to fly trough an otherwise hidden webway portal to further Vect's political goals. If the portal is still active or even at the same position is unknown.

**Kilkrazy**

SM chapters have serfs.

**usmcmidn**

Ah ok I get it Thx

**KamikazeCanuck**

Kilkrazy wrote:First, define Evil.

Willfully inflicting suffering.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:SM chapters have serfs.

...good for them.

**labmouse42**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's plenty of evil. Chaos and Dark Eldar are just evil for the sake of being evil and make no apologies for it.

Death is a part of life. You could argue that blood for the blood god is there to improve the genetic basis of humanity in a similar way that malformed babies were killed. Don't forget that khorne also loves kids. The warriors wait till they are full grown before killing them.

Chaos gives you choice, unlike the imperium. Slaanesh wants you to experience life to the fullest. Tszeench wants you to be yourself, with no regrets. They are both advocates of freedom.

Nurgle followers are having a party, and your invited! They are just coming to hang out, and they even brought the beer. Why are you shooting at them? Now their just defending themselves. Even if you drive them back, a few days later you will feel under the weather, then you will come join the party.

Is chaos evil? It's debatable

**Totalwar1402**

Kroothawk wrote:
Totalwar1402 wrote:Before Brightsword attacks the convoy, he wipes out the planets population because they resisted him, not just military but the whole planet.

That is a good description why he was sacked. So punishing genocides is evil now?

Totalwar1402 wrote:No, the ratio didn't change, they all but died out and its heavily hinted that sterilization was the cause. At any rate using colonists to displace the native society is an evil in its own right.

Men and women are living in separate camps. Ask Mom and Dad, why there are less children, when men and women don't meet. BTW this ending of a non-GW-game took place in an alternative timeline, and sterilization is presented as the third likeliest explanation by the Imperial narrator. And the next supplement of the same game features an ending, where Sororitas cull the Imperial Guard AND Space Marines on the planet, so ...

They sacked him because he didn't ask an Imperial army of retribution for surrender but destroyed it; they sacked him because he offended their sensibilites not that he wiped out a population that refused his calls to surrender beforehand. At least thats how the codex story seemed to be worded.

Actually preventing births by force is considered an Act of Genocide by the UN if applied on the sort of scale you're implying.

The post is are eldar and Tau evil, not are they more or less dickish than the Imperials.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:So Brightsword wiped out the whole population.

Then he attacked a convoy.

Yes.

I see.

Yes, because the Imperium of Man did not appreciate losing one of its planet and sent an army to take it back; this is when the ambush happened.

**im2randomghgh**

Umm...having them in two camps isn't genocide.

Unless you are hating on Dorms?

And with all this "Are imperials evil?" stuff, I would just like to pint out that the whole SM thing where they use their anger and hatred and stuff sounds a lot like the dark side of the force.

In fact the Empire from SW seems actually less evil then the IoM

**dalsiandon**

im2randomghgh wrote:...

In fact the Empire from SW seems actually less evil then the IoM

Really? They destroyed a planet for a scrap of info and a demonstration of power. It created an intergalactic war and literary pulled the strings on both sides to achieve it's objective. And that's just in the movies, forget about all the EU stuff.

However in terms of the way things are run, yeah the IoM is a far worse organization. Of course when you consider all the EU stuff about the GE and compare the Military might of each group is probably close, especially when comparing the IG with the way Imperial Stormtroopers are set-up.

**RxGhost**

It's my understanding of the fluff that pretty much everything that is bad that is happening is the Eldar's fault.

The Tau are not evil, but they sure as heck aren't good.

**usmcmidn**

Can't we all get along

**KamikazeCanuck**

usmcmidn wrote:Can't we all get along

There is only WAR!!!!

**Frankenberry**

Comparing the Imperium and the Tau empire (yet again, sigh) is impossible. Calling the Imperium evil because of the steps it's leaders take to stop, slow down, or eradicate a Tyranid Hive Fleet or demonic incursion (exterminatus) is easy because no one here would ever had to make a call like that. Neither have the Tau. They don't have to deal with heretics or possible demon possession, and haven't had to deal with a massive Tyranid invasion. Even their Ork incursions have been minute in comparison to those that the Imperium has dealt with.

The Imperium's attitude is that the end is justified by the means, or win by any cost. If that means a hive planet is destroyed so that the Tyranids starve to death, so be it. The Tau have never had to face something like this, EVER. They have the luxury of their Greater Good because they don't have to deal with anything that monstrous.

The Eldar are haughty and arrogant, shocking...being space elves. They have their own 'Greater Good'. What I don't get is that instead of accepting their lot in the galaxy and responsiblity for creating a Chaos God and teaching the younger races how to combat the warp...they spend all of their time raising hell. The sooner these space-fairing donkey-caves get wiped out, the better.

**Totalwar1402**

im2randomghgh wrote:Umm...having them in two camps isn't genocide.

Unless you are hating on Dorms?

And with all this "Are imperials evil?" stuff, I would just like to pint out that the whole SM thing where they use their anger and hatred and stuff sounds a lot like the dark side of the force.

In fact the Empire from SW seems actually less evil then the IoM

Article 2 of the UN Convention defines genocide as

...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2

Tau did this by splitting male and female humans in a camp, not really the same as dorms in a uni campus because thats totally voluntary, done by a small part of a society and not forcibly imposed on the entirity of a population by a foriegn power. Unless you're saying the campus staff are foriegn devils.