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Is this segregation thing actually stated or is it just a fan theory?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Is this segregation thing actually stated or is it just a fan theory?

No, thats the actual United Nations definition of what genocide is under Article Two of its convention. Another poster was saying preventing births in a population wasn't genocide and I remembered having studied it at university so I copied the section from wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Prevention_and_Punishment_of_the_Crime_of_Genocide

Anyway, the post isn't about comparing Tau to Imperium, but on our terms, yes, they are , really evil .

The example he gave was a few posts and days ago; but I think he was suggesting that was what happened to the humans in Dark Crusade. I thought it was sterilization myself.

No, what the Tau did. I know the UN isn't a fan theory.

Haha that's actually great!
I just internalized how sweet of an idea that would be for a South Park episode, with all the world's governments (or most of them) getting together to write a joint fanfic that is the UN!

Totalwar1402 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Umm...having them in two camps isn't genocide.

Unless you are hating on Dorms?

And with all this "Are imperials evil?" stuff, I would just like to pint out that the whole SM thing where they use their anger and hatred and stuff sounds a lot like the dark side of the force.

In fact the Empire from SW seems actually less evil then the IoM

Article 2 of the UN Convention defines genocide as

...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2

Tau did this by splitting male and female humans in a camp, not really the same as dorms in a uni campus because thats totally voluntary, done by a small part of a society and not forcibly imposed on the entirity of a population by a foriegn power. Unless you're saying the campus staff are foriegn devils.

Segregated imprisonment of PoWs isn't a case of Article 2 (d).

usmcmidn wrote:Well I mean most Imperial SM chapters are good right?

I mean I have read the Salamanders will Sacrifice its Marines for civilians and other chapters do it as well (Ultra, Mantis, Sharks etc...)

Arnt Imperial Guard supposed to look over Imperial opoulations as well?

I can see the inquisition and SoB being somewhat evil and extremist who would kill if they sensed a bit of heretic which to them could b everyone even some SM.

Or am I totally wrong? And would they just randomly destroy an Eldar planet or Tau Planet? ? ?

SoB are also zealous when it comes to protecting the Emperor's people. Just see Armageddon 3'rd war.
But all of them above would kill every last alien on some random planet, because they are all xenophobic and love just their own race.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:First, define Evil.

It's hard to define evil in 40k, when almost all things are evil.
We must look it like this:

-By their ideals all races are evil, with Tau slightly being less. Because all other races look to their interest and to rule/destroy over all other. But if we look some of their ideals some races like Eldar, Imperium and Tau have some good ideals ( like preservation of their own race, protection, opposing Chaos etc... ).

-If we look actions of individuals, some races are less evil then others ( Imperium allying with Tau and Eldar, Tau offering shelter and support to other races, Eldar occasionally helping Imperium and others in battles against various threats ). You can even say that most of the Imperium's population would gladly help any alien they encounter if they are friendly ( until their superiors find out anyway ).

-Ultimate goal of every race make them all evil except Tau. Because all races look to themselves and don't care about others, except Tau. But there is some good in that to, they are prepared to defend their populations to the end. And to are eyes, the ones to defend civilian population from death and destruction will always be good guys.

-When it comes to freedom of individual, only race that gives full freedom are Orks. All others have some restrictions when it comes to personal freedom ( Chaos being worst of them all for taking your very soul as payment ).

-The real good guys to me in 40k are undiscovered Human colonies. Because those colonies probably don't do most of the grim thing the rest of major galactic power do. If majority of them are like we today we can agree to that.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Is this segregation thing actually stated or is it just a fan theory?

No, it's the same text of the PC game, with the Imperial narrator wondering why the population growth declines giving several explanations, first explanation that men and women are in separate camps, then speculating about a possible sterilization project. BTW the same company made Sororitas execute all Imperial Guard and Space Marines in the Sororitas ending of the next expansion DOW Soul Storm. So the writers are a subtle bunch.

Kroothawk wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Is this segregation thing actually stated or is it just a fan theory?

No, it's the same text of the PC game, with the Imperial narrator wondering why the population growth declines giving several explanations, first explanation that men and women are in separate camps, then speculating about a possible sterilization project. BTW the same company made Sororitas execute all Imperial Guard and Space Marines in the Sororitas ending of the next expansion DOW Soul Storm. So the writers are a subtle bunch.

And that is why we are only using Space Marine ending for Dark Crusade and Imperial Guard for Soulstorm for canon.

Can't say for the Tau, but the Eldar aren't evil.

People cite wiping out Imperial planets wholesale, thats no more genocide than when you clean the kitchen surface with an antibacterial wipe...

They are arrogant to the point where really in terms of being people the other races don't count, they are savage beasts to be culled and removed, as befits a race that was ancient when humanity crawled on it's belly from the ocean.

If they thought they could get away with it and didn't need humanity to be cannon fodder against worse things I suspect they would wipe them out in an instant, not out of a sense of evil or malice, but because thats Eldar land and a bunch of semi-evolved upstart savages would never be missed.

They're not bad, in my opinion they're sort of like the imperium. A lesser evil compared to everything else

Brother Coa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Is this segregation thing actually stated or is it just a fan theory?

No, it's the same text of the PC game, with the Imperial narrator wondering why the population growth declines giving several explanations, first explanation that men and women are in separate camps, then speculating about a possible sterilization project. BTW the same company made Sororitas execute all Imperial Guard and Space Marines in the Sororitas ending of the next expansion DOW Soul Storm. So the writers are a subtle bunch.

And that is why we are only using Space Marine ending for Dark Crusade and Imperial Guard for Soulstorm for canon.

1.) The writers are the same. Only in some endings their lack of competence and respect for official 40k background is more obvious than in others. That's why you will not find weekly threads claiming that Sororitas can slaughter Space Marines armies anytime they want.
2.) The Tau ending is used in almost every Tau thread to denounce them. You have been one of those using it.

Necroshea wrote:Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

Kind of like Imperialist forces throughout our actual history, bringing the good of civilization to all those misinformed and backwards savages in the galaxy.

Of course the Imperium did this too in its Empire building phase and in the great crusade to reunite the empire under one banner again. The human planets found were given the option to join up with the Imperium peacefully or forcibly and the Imperium didn't necessarily care if it wiped your out during the forcible path either.

I personally don't feel that there are any "good" guys in the 40k universe. All of the sides involved have their less than redeeming qualities. Some just have more than others. So I see the split less as good-bad and more as bad-less bad.

Skriker

Kroothawk wrote:
And that is why we are only using Space Marine ending for Dark Crusade and Imperial Guard for Soulstorm for canon.

1.) The writers are the same. Only in some endings their lack of competence and respect for official 40k background is more obvious than in others. That's why you will not find weekly threads claiming that Sororitas can slaughter Space Marines armies anytime they want.

Brother Coa wrote:
Well they can, if they summon entire order against one Chapter they can surely cleanse them. ( One order of Sisters have 2 - 3000 Sisters )


.

Aye, they did try to attack Fenris and the fact they managed to leave alive at all is probably indicitive that against a less powerful/awesome chapter they could do it.

A bit off topic, but where did you get the 2-3000 figure? When I was reading Faith and Fire n Hammer and Anvil there seemed to be hundreds of Battle sisters just on single planets as basic garrisons. Do you mean an Order as in, like the Order of Our Martyred Lady or White Rose, or do you mean something else?

Totalwar1402 wrote:
Aye, they did try to attack Fenris and the fact they managed to leave alive at all is probably indicitive that against a less powerful/awesome chapter they could do it.

Still didn't read that story, I don't want to.

A bit off topic, but where did you get the 2-3000 figure? When I was reading Faith and Fire n Hammer and Anvil there seemed to be hundreds of Battle sisters just on single planets as basic garrisons. Do you mean an Order as in, like the Order of Our Martyred Lady or White Rose, or do you mean something else?

Major Orders ( Our Matured Lady, Bloody Rose ) have several thousand Sisters while smaller ones have several hundred, or even less then hundred.

Why do these threads pop up like every single week? This is like the politics section of yahoo answers.

No one is badand everyone is bad. bad is irrelevant. Each race protects its people and their interests, just like modern armies right here on earth do.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Umm...having them in two camps isn't genocide.

Unless you are hating on Dorms?

And with all this "Are imperials evil?" stuff, I would just like to pint out that the whole SM thing where they use their anger and hatred and stuff sounds a lot like the dark side of the force.

In fact the Empire from SW seems actually less evil then the IoM

Article 2 of the UN Convention defines genocide as

...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2

Tau did this by splitting male and female humans in a camp, not really the same as dorms in a uni campus because thats totally voluntary, done by a small part of a society and not forcibly imposed on the entirity of a population by a foriegn power. Unless you're saying the campus staff are foriegn devils.

Segregated imprisonment of PoWs isn't a case of Article 2 (d).

Aren't the people in question civilians?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Is this segregation thing actually stated or is it just a fan theory?

No, it's the same text of the PC game, with the Imperial narrator wondering why the population growth declines giving several explanations, first explanation that men and women are in separate camps, then speculating about a possible sterilization project. BTW the same company made Sororitas execute all Imperial Guard and Space Marines in the Sororitas ending of the next expansion DOW Soul Storm. So the writers are a subtle bunch.

And that is why we are only using Space Marine ending for Dark Crusade and Imperial Guard for Soulstorm for canon.

1.) The writers are the same. Only in some endings their lack of competence and respect for official 40k background is more obvious than in others. That's why you will not find weekly threads claiming that Sororitas can slaughter Space Marines armies anytime they want.
2.) The Tau ending is used in almost every Tau thread to denounce them. You have been one of those using it.

That's because the SoBs won in that version of reality. SoBs wiping out large swathes of people is not out of character for them.

Yes they are. Adn why are we bringing UN Convention laws here?
Tau never heard about Earth, not to mention UN and their rules.

Brother Coa wrote:Yes they are. Adn why are we bringing UN Convention laws here?
Tau never heard about Earth, not to mention UN and their rules.

The Tau love Geneva, Switzerland.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Yes they are. Adn why are we bringing UN Convention laws here?
Tau never heard about Earth, not to mention UN and their rules.

The Tau love Geneva, Switzerland.

We all saw that on Nimbosa.

Brother Coa wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:And that is why we are only using Space Marine ending for Dark Crusade and Imperial Guard for Soulstorm for canon.

Kroothawk wrote:1.) The writers are the same. Only in some endings their lack of competence and respect for official 40k background is more obvious than in others. That's why you will not find weekly threads claiming that Sororitas can slaughter Space Marines armies anytime they want.

Well they can, if they summon entire order against one Chapter they can surely cleanse them. ( One order of Sisters have 2 - 3000 Sisters )

Kroothawk wrote:2.) The Tau ending is used in almost every Tau thread to denounce them. You have been one of those using it.

True to that, but that was also mentioned in BL book Xenobilogy, I think. Maybe I mentioned that but I also said: "Without more fluff this remains merrily a speculation."
And that thing being mentioned in two different sources is not just something random written. But without more fluff we can't say anything.

1.) Please get the quotes right. Don't post my posts as yours and vice versa.
2.) Don't make guesses about books, whose title you don't even know. And no, no sterilization mentioned in the book Xenology. And showing Ethereals with feet instead of hooves, it is not the best source.
3.) Yes, you mentioned it unconditioned in your "Tau are racist" thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/361942.page

They have pacified Humans on conquered worlds, to prevent them in reproducing

Samus_aran115 wrote:Why do these threads pop up like every single week?

Because 2-3 Dakka members feel obliged to troll Tau players every single week.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Aren't the people in question civilians?

Only humans fighting the Tau were put into reeducation camps.

Are you sure it wasn't humans who didn't sign up for The Greater Good?

Brother Coa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
And that is why we are only using Space Marine ending for Dark Crusade and Imperial Guard for Soulstorm for canon.

1.) The writers are the same. Only in some endings their lack of competence and respect for official 40k background is more obvious than in others. That's why you will not find weekly threads claiming that Sororitas can slaughter Space Marines armies anytime they want.

Well they can, if they summon entire order against one Chapter they can surely cleanse them. ( One order of Sisters have 2 - 3000 Sisters )

2.) The Tau ending is used in almost every Tau thread to denounce them. You have been one of those using it.

They are simply another race, fighting for the survival of their species. No race is bad in 40k apart from CSM, which are basically space marines turned to the dark gods. And daemons.

Kroothawk wrote:
3.) Yes, you mentioned it unconditioned in your "Tau are racist" thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/361942.page

They have pacified Humans on conquered worlds, to prevent them in reproducing

Well, in my defense, that was before I read a little more and learned that it was just a report from Ordo Xenos. Until they put/remove that in codex or official fluff it is debatable at best.
Not in Xenobiology? What about "Courage and Honor"? I know this was mentioned in BL book as well.

Courage and Honour made them out to be, yes Imperialists and arrogant, but genuinely of higher moral character than the Imperials. Even Ventirs attitude about the fatality of death and inevitable brutality of the Imperium is decried by an Etherial as immoral.

Spoilers
A better example of the Tau being dicks would be the second Last Chancers novel where the Tau actually hire Imperial Agents to murder their own commander (none other than Brightsword himself) because they don't want to risk the embarresment of removing a war hero. They then stab the Imperials in the back (don't be too sorry the Inq double double crosses the Tau). Its pretty brutal how brightsword dies. Brightsword has his suit disabled and is crawling out of it then Kage quite mercilessly runs over to him and uses his rifle to blugeon his brains out.

Brother Coa wrote:Not in Xenobiology? What about "Courage and Honor"? I know this was mentioned in BL book as well.

No, not in Xenology. Also not in "Courage and Honour" where a Tau army of drop ships and anti-grav tanks fights desperately over a bridge to cross a river But keep on guessing.

BTW you will enjoy the novel "Savage Scars": No plot, just classic bolter porn with Space Marines smashing Tau and Kroot to bloody gore in NO time. But even there the Sergeant admits that Tau fight honourably which is the opposite to evil.

Kroothawk wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Not in Xenobiology? What about "Courage and Honor"? I know this was mentioned in BL book as well.

No, not in Xenology. Also not in "Courage and Honour" where a Tau army of drop ships and anti-grav tanks fights desperately over a bridge to cross a river But keep on guessing.

BTW you will enjoy the novel "Savage Scars": No plot, just classic bolter porn with Space Marines smashing Tau and Kroot to bloody gore in NO time. But even there the Sergeant admits that Tau fight honourably which is the opposite to evil.

I think I was told about that by a friend, is that book set in the Damocles Gulf Crusade?

Yes, the Imperium wants to exterminate a complete Tau homeworld (Dal'yth, famous for being cosmopolitan and trader-friendly). The Space Marine Sergeant avenges his brothers killed during the attempted genocide, finding time to crack jokes about how gory his armour got. Yeah, it's no fun to read BL novels when you search for information about Xenos. But if I don't read them, some people will try to tell everyone that exactly this novel contains proof for evil and/or Chaos corrupted Tau.