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Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos






3. This also means you decided to charge a single unit of Wraiths down the board with nothing else to support them leaving them as the closest unit to every psyker in your opponent's army.
4. Multicharges are a thing, and Wraiths can charge over enemy models anyway.


Every unit is crap when you look at it in a vacuum. Are T-sons good against models with an invuln save? Yes. Do you have the tools in your arsenal to beat them despite this? Absolutely.

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Mysterious Techpriest






 EnTyme wrote:
3. This also means you decided to charge a single unit of Wraiths down the board with nothing else to support them leaving them as the closest unit to every psyker in your opponent's army.
4. Multicharges are a thing, and Wraiths can charge over enemy models anyway.


Every unit is crap when you look at it in a vacuum. Are T-sons good against models with an invuln save? Yes. Do you have the tools in your arsenal to beat them despite this? Absolutely.


I never said it was a single unit of wraiths? I just said they will be the closest unit to the enemy past turn 1 unless they're not doing anything.
Multicharges don't matter if you can't fit your base.

Not every unit is crap in a vacuum. Just most of them. It's a thing I noticed every game where I fight against a psyker. Wraiths die to smites and I feel real bad.

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If you're playing against Tsons with Wraith, they will do very badly. Smite and Death Hex say no. There's not a lot you can do about it.
   
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Been Around the Block




... because the wraiths are the only real melee unit we have.


I can't speak for LG or TPs, but I think the codex Flayed Ones are pretty legit, particularly Novie ones. 3 attacks base with rerolls to hits and wounds and the potential to swing twice, and potentially at S5 when needed? Pretty deadly. The points drop from the index, albeit with the loss of one attack, did them a lot of favors as well.

They also pack their own delivery system, and the -1 LD, while not ground braking, does make them just a little more potent I've been using them pretty extensively thus far and loving them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 16:07:14


 
   
Made in us
Numberless Necron Warrior




Shadar_Logoth wrote:
... because the wraiths are the only real melee unit we have.


I can't speak for LG or TPs, but I think the codex Flayed Ones are pretty legit, particularly Novie ones. 3 attacks base with rerolls to hits and wounds and the potential to swing twice, and potentially at S5 when needed? Pretty deadly. The points drop from the index, albeit with the loss of one attack, did them a lot of favors as well.

They also pack their own delivery system, and the -1 LD, while not ground braking, does make them just a little more potent I've been using them pretty extensively thus far and loving them.


Their output is certainly good. Delivering them is the difficult part. With the recent FAQ, you're waiting until turn 2 and even then, it's going to be a 9" charge, if you're using their built in DS. If you fail that charge, I doubt T4 4+ will survive until next turn. I've had 20 T4 4+/5++ warriors blown off the board in a single turn in 1k games; I imagine 20 Flayed Ones in RF range would be much easier.

Anyway, with being a bigger point sink than warriors, I tend to avoid these guys.
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






Flayed Ones damage output is not great comparing to genestealers and similar stuff. The durability is really bad for their points too. AND delivering them is a problem. They suck real bad. :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also "and the -1 LD, while not ground braking, does make them just a little more potent" makes me laugh uncontrollably. It's the joke rule of 8th ed

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 17:39:26


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 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Flayed Ones damage output is not great comparing to genestealers and similar stuff. The durability is really bad for their points too. AND delivering them is a problem. They suck real bad. :(


They have DS. How is that a problem?

Unbuffed FOs kill .56 MEQ per base, fully buffed disruption fields and blood rites it jumps to 1.33. I don't know the GS numbers off the top of my head but I do know thats far from bad. It's upper tier.

Also with DF and BR they can very reasonably threaten any unit in the game. Their durability is only bad if you don't get any mileage out of RP. With a chrontek near by they are getting a 4+/5++ and RP 4+, which is completely superior to Genies, Zerkers, or other similarly costed CC units. Considering they skip two rounds of shooting, typically, and two rounds of your own shooting bringing your opponents anti infantry down, you are doing something wrong if you lose them all before you get a chance to roll RP. I've played dozens of games with a 20 brick and I think they were wiped maybe twice.


They are far from bad, and certainly don't suck, and I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you've never actually used them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also "and the -1 LD, while not ground braking, does make them just a little more potent" makes me laugh uncontrollably. It's the joke rule of 8th ed

It's commonly an extra wound thrown around. Not sure what's so amusing about that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Necronplayer wrote:
Shadar_Logoth wrote:
... because the wraiths are the only real melee unit we have.


I can't speak for LG or TPs, but I think the codex Flayed Ones are pretty legit, particularly Novie ones. 3 attacks base with rerolls to hits and wounds and the potential to swing twice, and potentially at S5 when needed? Pretty deadly. The points drop from the index, albeit with the loss of one attack, did them a lot of favors as well.

They also pack their own delivery system, and the -1 LD, while not ground braking, does make them just a little more potent I've been using them pretty extensively thus far and loving them.


Their output is certainly good. Delivering them is the difficult part. With the recent FAQ, you're waiting until turn 2 and even then, it's going to be a 9" charge, if you're using their built in DS. If you fail that charge, I doubt T4 4+ will survive until next turn. I've had 20 T4 4+/5++ warriors blown off the board in a single turn in 1k games; I imagine 20 Flayed Ones in RF range would be much easier.

Anyway, with being a bigger point sink than warriors, I tend to avoid these guys.


There late delivery is something that you should capitalize on. That gives you two turns to bring down your opponents firepower so they don't just drop in and die. I pair mine with 20 veiled Warriors who do a very adequate job of cutting away bubble wrap and limiting the firepower that can be brought against the FOs.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/13 18:05:25


 
   
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Mysterious Techpriest






I have not seen Flayed Ones in a single tournament list, their mathammer is really poor compared to similar units. Why should I bother? I don't need to try servitors to know they suck. Same with Flayed ones. And deepstrike as a CC delivery mechanism is terrible without 3D6 charge

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Been Around the Block




I have not seen Flayed Ones in a single tournament list


Relevance?


their mathammer is really poor compared to similar units.


I don't believe this is the case, but you are more then welcome to present your case with supporting facts if you wish. Specifically, though, compare them to Wraiths, whom they are actually competing with for inclusion.

DS works fine without 3D6 charge. You don't HAVE to make the charge the turn they drop. Do Wraiths get into CC without being shot at first? Of course not. Does that make Wraiths useless? Of course not.
"
;

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 19:05:57


 
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






"I have not seen Flayed Ones in a single tournament list


Relevance? "

I might as well stop reading here. But sure - if something is not seeing play in tournaments (you know, where people are going with the goal "TO WIN") - it probably sucks. Its the best players, the ones who play the most, mathammer the most. They are not stupid. If they don't take them EVER, that's probably the smart thing to do.

You can check my spreadsheet in my signature. To see what I've seen mathammer wise. For comparison: they are slower, 2x less durable genestealers, that also do "OK" damage only to horde units (however genestealers beat them 0.087 to 0.111 still even against the best target for Flayed ones...)
I don't need to compare Flayed ones to Wraiths. That's like gunlines taking their terrible melee units just because they're the only ones they have. If you play to your weaknesses - you will have a weaker army. You have to play to your strength. Obviously, wraiths do have their uses as fast CC stuff.

Finally wraiths are actually durable for their points. Flayed ones drop like flies against anti-horde weapons once they fail that 9'' charge.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/13 19:20:18


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Texas

 p5freak wrote:
 Dynas wrote:

On another note, this came up as well. Since Nihilak Stratgem is used at end of turn and not a phase, per pg 215 of BRB, you can play that stratagem more than once since its not part of a phase. So, say we we use it on lychguard twice, granting them 2 attacks and a 2++ invul save. Also could use on a 20 man squad of flayed ones with a Chronotek nearby. Use 2 times to give them a 2+/3++ with 100 attacks for a 20 man sq. Add Imotekh nearby for reroll 1's and MWBD and they are hitting on 2's.


And if i were your opponent i would ignore your flayed ones, because you play it at the end of your turn. If i dont attack them your 4 CP are wasted. Unless its about an objective marker which is critical for the win.


It last until the start of your next turn,so you would lock in, and surround, forcing the fight in his turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Flayed Ones damage output is not great comparing to genestealers and similar stuff. The durability is really bad for their points too. AND delivering them is a problem. They suck real bad. :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also "and the -1 LD, while not ground braking, does make them just a little more potent" makes me laugh uncontrollably. It's the joke rule of 8th ed


Best bet would be demension corridor to disembark just outside 1 inch and charge, but now you got to take a monolith.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 19:36:46


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Been Around the Block





I might as well stop reading here. But sure - if something is not seeing play in tournaments (you know, where people are going with the goal "TO WIN") - it probably sucks. Its the best players, the ones who play the most, mathammer the most. They are not stupid. If they don't take them EVER, that's probably the smart thing to do.


You are more then free to let others do your thinking for you. The fact that the few dozen Necron lists at tournaments since the Dex dropped didn't bring one particular unit is pretty irrelevant to me.

You can check my spreadsheet in my signature. To see what I've seen mathammer wise. For comparison: they are slower, 2x less durable genestealers, that also do "OK" damage only to horde units (however genestealers beat them 0.087 to 0.111 still even against the best target for Flayed ones...)


They are only 2x less durable then genies if they never get RP. Silly assumptions bring even more ludicrous conclusions. Novohk FOs with DF and BR have very good damage output against anything in the game.

I don't need to compare Flayed ones to Wraiths. That's like gunlines taking their terrible melee units just because they're the only ones they have. If you play to your weaknesses - you will have a weaker army. You have to play to your strength. Obviously, wraiths do have their uses as fast CC stuff.


You are begging the question quite a bit here. "they are terrible because I say they are terrible which proves they are terrible." Riveting analysis.



Finally wraiths are actually durable for their points. Flayed ones drop like flies against anti-horde weapons once they fail that 9'' charge.


You get 3.23 FO wounds per 3 Wraith wounds. T5 4+/3++ is a little better then T4 4+/5++ RP 4+, albeit more susceptible to multi damage shots. I'd give a slight edge to Wraiths, but the disparity between the two isn't even in the same ballpark as you are implying.

Also, FO's 9 S4 rr wound attacks measures up very well against the Wraiths 3 S6 ap -2 D2 attacks against pretty much all targets.
   
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 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I have not seen Flayed Ones in a single tournament list, their mathammer is really poor compared to similar units. Why should I bother? I don't need to try servitors to know they suck. Same with Flayed ones. And deepstrike as a CC delivery mechanism is terrible without 3D6 charge


Yeah, this is the issue, need to dimension corridor them. GS have Advance and charge, and often a Catalyst 5+++ so they are going to get in. They get 4 attacks over 10 man and don't need any other units to buff them to get those. Also, they have rending claws and acid maws for anti tank, or Sycthing Talons Reroll 1's for weaker GEQ. ITs really the speed. If flayed ones had a faster speed, an advance and charge component or a 3d6 charge, then they would be much better. Only feasible way I see to get them close is the Monolith Demension Corridor stratagem which is unfortunate.

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3.23 FOs versus 1 Wraith do about twice as many wounds against GEQ and MEQ and 30 to 40% more wounds against multi wound high toughness targets.


Again, while I can see the difficulty people have maneuvering correctly, pure mathhammer shows they clearly punch plenty hard when they get stuck in.

20 FOs can also cover 60" of board space allowing you to threaten basically an entire half of the board. Combined with adequate support from the rest of your army it's really not nearly as difficult as some are implying to use them effectively.
   
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In My Lab

Flayed Ones, three of, get 9 attacks, for 6 hits, 5.33 wounds against GEQs/4.5 against MEQs, which is dropped to 3.55 unsaved against GEQs/1.5 unsaved against MEQs.

Wariths, one of, gets 3 attacks, for 2 hits, 1.67 wounds against GEQs/1.33 against MEQs, which is dropped to 1.67 wounds against GEQs/1.11 against MEQs.

Significantly better against GEQs, but barely better versus MEQs.

And what about the strike-back?

Flayed Ones have a spindly T4, 4+ whereas Wraiths have a T5, 3++.

Plus, Teslamortals are going to serve you better versus GEQs, usually.

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Something's wrong with your math.

1 Wraith kills 3(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = .89 MEq
3.23 FOS kill 9.7(2/3)(3/4)(1/3) = 1.62 MEQ

So, like I said, almost twice as good. Tack on DFs and Novohk and that number jumps to 2.55 for the FOs, 1.19 for the Wraiths (who of course don't benefit from DF in that scenario)
   
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In My Lab

Ah, I see what I did wrong. I used the wounds against GEQs instead of the wound against MEQs.

My bad.

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Fresh-Faced New User



Ayrshire,Scotland

torblind wrote:
-Sentinel- wrote:
No. Thats why Cryptek is Sautekh, while destroyers and scarabs are Nephrekh. If I don't miss anything, all units in that batalion won't have access to dynasty codes (sad scarabs), while you still able to use deep strike stratagem on destroyers.


Oh you can do that? Didn't know


I really don’t think you can do that have each unit a different dynasty within the same detachment


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 _Ness wrote:
Hey Guys!

I will face a 2700 pts DeathGuard/Nugle Daemons army this weekend. He brings A LOT of bodies (poxwalker/cultists/marines)

What do you think about this list?
Im thinking about ditching the blades and get another warrior screen within the nephrek outrider instead. but i guess both choices are quite comparable.

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Necrons) [90 PL, 1687pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Sautekh

+ HQ +

Cryptek [5 PL, 95pts]: Chronometron, Staff of Light

Imotekh the Stormlord [10 PL, 200pts]
. Warlord: Warlord Trait (Sautekh): Hyperlogical Strategist

+ Troops +

Immortals [8 PL, 170pts]: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine

Immortals [8 PL, 170pts]: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine

Necron Warriors [12 PL, 192pts]: 16x Necron Warrior

+ Elites +

C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer [12 PL, 210pts]

+ Fast Attack +

Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 52pts]: 4x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

Canoptek Tomb Sentinel [9 PL, 180pts]

+ Heavy Support +

Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]

Transcendent C'tan [12 PL, 225pts]: Fractured Personality: Cosmic Tyrant, Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Necrons) [59 PL, 1023pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Nephrekh

+ HQ +

Cryptek [5 PL, 85pts]: Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light

Destroyer Lord [7 PL, 131pts]: Artefact: The Nanoscarab Casket, Phylactery, Warscythe

+ Fast Attack +

Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 52pts]: 4x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

Canoptek Wraiths [18 PL, 330pts]: 6x Canoptek Wraith

Destroyers [15 PL, 250pts]
. 5x Destroyer: 5x Gauss Cannon

Tomb Blades [10 PL, 175pts]
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine

++ Total: [149 PL, 2710pts] ++


Its supposed to be a friendly, otherwise we wouldnt play that many points. My opponent will field a great unclean one, which i have still no idea how to defeat. Any hints?

cheers & have a good day


First question would be why the sentinel?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
 vict0988 wrote:
Curious79 wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
I have 5 games with TPs, 2 with Shieldguard and 1 with Scytheguard pre-codex, 3, 0, and 4 games post-codex for TPs, Shieldguard and Scytheguard respectively, they can be very fun to play just don't expect them to win you any tournament games.


Have you examples of lists that have worked well, as I always find it hard to get LG into CC with a supporting HQ and especially TP as they move 10” I would be really interested in hearing how you over came these problems

Pre-codex I did okay with LG-Deceiver combo for a turn 2 charge, but you'll be toast against many armies, if your opponent has enough chaff then your LG are going to be sad. They're pretty good at cutting down Primarchs though and perhabs that's part of why I had success with my elite melee units, because many of my opponents at the time were using those or otherwise plain bad armies, I was also facing a lot of generals who weren't very good when I was testing LG.

TPs is all about target saturation for your opponent's shooting and staying behind your chaff (Warriors/Scarabs/Wraiths) and jumping out in front. TPs can't be targeted for MWBD except by Anrakyr and can't benefit from Technomancer except from Szeras. Keep in mind that you don't measure vertical distance on charge anymore, that's a good reason to take TPs over LG. For all melee units you need to be meticulous in how you pile in and consolidate, maximize shooting denial while minimizing the Overwatch you have to suffer.

The times when Necrons are strongest is when facing a bad opponent who fails to respect RP and that goes for LG and TPs as well, if your opponent gets first turn, shoots down your chaff/shooting units and then turn 2 deletes your LG/TP units one at a time, then they won't be great. But if your opponent lets you make 40 RP rolls for your elite infantry units over the course of the game, then you'll probably do great. Playing on tables with enough terrain and with the ITC rules is a huge deal, hiding 2 or 3 models out of sight through a conga-line could allow you to RP for the entire unit. Post-codex I've just been losing a lot,
but the one with which I had the most success is probably my Anrakyr/Szeras list which features a single unit of Triarch Praetorians.


I would love to see that list and how you managed to keep the HQs up with the. TPs with their extra movement


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shadar_Logoth wrote:
Something's wrong with your math.

1 Wraith kills 3(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = .89 MEq
3.23 FOS kill 9.7(2/3)(3/4)(1/3) = 1.62 MEQ

So, like I said, almost twice as good. Tack on DFs and Novohk and that number jumps to 2.55 for the FOs, 1.19 for the Wraiths (who of course don't benefit from DF in that scenario)


Ok sorry newbie hear what’s DF & BR

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/13 23:56:32


 
   
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Ok sorry newbie hear what’s DF & BR


Two Strategems. Disruption Fields, (+1 Strength to any infantry for 1 CP) and Blood Rites (Novokh specific strat that allows you to attak a second time in CC for 3 CP).
   
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Germany

Mathhammer is not everything. FOs need support to work. And they are elite, we don't have many good elite choices. They need someone to buff them, a warlord who let's them reroll failed charges. They only move 5" and they can't ignore models and terrain when moving. And they can't charge when they fall back.
   
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Mysterious Techpriest






Yes, I will let others do the thinking for me in some cases. I can only play about a game a week. They can and DO play 10+ a week against other players that also do the same. I can't compete with that.
What I can do is create a spreadsheet that tells me that Flayed Ones suck.
Then I can look at top necron lists and see 0 Flayed Ones there. Those players would crush you turn 3 three. Because compared to them, you probably suck. And that's not your fault. It's just that they spend a ludicrous amount of time playing the game every week. Fact is - they probably know better than you.

Now let's put 2 and 2 together:
Bad on paper (mathammer)
Bad on the table (tournament results)
=
BAD

The fact that you compare them to wraiths but add a bunch of buffs to Flayed Ones and call it "fair". Why not add the amount of points the character takes up? Why not add the fact that they will get wiped turn 1 so they don't get RP. If 20 T4 5++ 5+++ genestealers always die in 1 turn - so will 20 flayed ones. Nothing will stay on the table for more than a turn or two if your opponent focuses it in 8th edition. If he wants that unit to die - it will die unless he brought a garbage list.

I'm not discussing this any further: I've said my part. It's as clear cut as you can get.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/06/14 04:41:58


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Running the re-roll charge Trait with Flayed Ones isn't necessary if you're just running a blob of 20 unless you're also running several other melee units. Let's say you roll a single 4 and then the other dice was 1-4 then you have a 33% chance of making the charge with a command re-roll, 27% with the Trait. You roll a 5 it's 50% vs 27%. You roll a 6 it's 67% vs 27%. The chance of rolling of making your charge is 27%, the chance of failing while rolling a single 4+ is quite good.

The Sautekh Trait gives 2-5 extra CP depending on how greedy you get between paying 2 CP just to have a unit of Destroyers be Nephrekh and then also give them DS and how many Relics you get. But if you're running a unit of Novokh Flayed Ones you really should be quite frugal with your CP pre-game. I'd wager you'll have more success with a Sautekh WL in a mostly ranged army rather than trying to run up your Mephrit/Novokh WL to give a 27% chance of making the charge in case you fail. That trait is really only good if you're going to be making at least 5 charges within range of the WL over the course of the game.

Flayed Ones are far too risky to be tournament viable in my estimation, you'd have to go to a lot of tournaments with your Flayed Ones list to make it to the top rankings at one, odds are you're going to be losing out on pure luck one game each tournament, which will bar you from a top placement in most tournaments. Then there's the fact that tournament players will be better at screening which means the result you see at your FLGs will likely be better than what you'll see once you go to a GT. Rvd1ofakind views everything in terms of tournament viability and I agree that we'll never see Flayed Ones in tournaments, both because their math isn't up-to-par with the current meta and DS won't be as effective against veteran players with experience against many different lists. That being said, if you spring a squad of 20 Flayed Ones on 5 people at the local shop, odds are you can probably get at least one of them to exasperately to ask you how many pts they are and whine when they find out they're "only" 17 pts.

As nice as re-roll wounds is against vehicles, a full squad of 20 FOs still needs to pay 3 CP just to destroy a Predator in one round of combat and if your opponent doesn't have any other units within 12" when you drop down then you can only attack that Predator and then maybe pile in to the next unit. The amount of circumstances where 20 Tesla Immortals will do worse than 20 FOs is not incredibly high in my estimation, although I have still only scratched the surface of Flayed Ones so maybe I'll come to love them.

Curious79 wrote:
torblind wrote:
-Sentinel- wrote:
No. Thats why Cryptek is Sautekh, while destroyers and scarabs are Nephrekh. If I don't miss anything, all units in that batalion won't have access to dynasty codes (sad scarabs), while you still able to use deep strike stratagem on destroyers.


Oh you can do that? Didn't know


I really don’t think you can do that have each unit a different dynasty within the same detachment

You can.

Curious79 wrote:

Spoiler:
 vict0988 wrote:
Curious79 wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
I have 5 games with TPs, 2 with Shieldguard and 1 with Scytheguard pre-codex, 3, 0, and 4 games post-codex for TPs, Shieldguard and Scytheguard respectively, they can be very fun to play just don't expect them to win you any tournament games.


Have you examples of lists that have worked well, as I always find it hard to get LG into CC with a supporting HQ and especially TP as they move 10” I would be really interested in hearing how you over came these problems

Pre-codex I did okay with LG-Deceiver combo for a turn 2 charge, but you'll be toast against many armies, if your opponent has enough chaff then your LG are going to be sad. They're pretty good at cutting down Primarchs though and perhabs that's part of why I had success with my elite melee units, because many of my opponents at the time were using those or otherwise plain bad armies, I was also facing a lot of generals who weren't very good when I was testing LG.

TPs is all about target saturation for your opponent's shooting and staying behind your chaff (Warriors/Scarabs/Wraiths) and jumping out in front. TPs can't be targeted for MWBD except by Anrakyr and can't benefit from Technomancer except from Szeras. Keep in mind that you don't measure vertical distance on charge anymore, that's a good reason to take TPs over LG. For all melee units you need to be meticulous in how you pile in and consolidate, maximize shooting denial while minimizing the Overwatch you have to suffer.

The times when Necrons are strongest is when facing a bad opponent who fails to respect RP and that goes for LG and TPs as well, if your opponent gets first turn, shoots down your chaff/shooting units and then turn 2 deletes your LG/TP units one at a time, then they won't be great. But if your opponent lets you make 40 RP rolls for your elite infantry units over the course of the game, then you'll probably do great. Playing on tables with enough terrain and with the ITC rules is a huge deal, hiding 2 or 3 models out of sight through a conga-line could allow you to RP for the entire unit. Post-codex I've just been losing a lot,
but the one with which I had the most success is probably my Anrakyr/Szeras list which features a single unit of Triarch Praetorians.


I would love to see that list and how you managed to keep the HQs up with the. TPs with their extra movement [/spoiler]
The HQs don't keep up, the Triarch Praetorians keep down. I just used them to counter-attack once my opponents once they reached my lines. Sometimes when you go forwards you won't be able to grab cover, in that case it makes more sense than ever to take Scarabs or Wraiths that don't need cover or support, so I just didn't play my TPs like I would Wraiths.
   
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Curious79 wrote:
torblind wrote:
-Sentinel- wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 _Ness wrote:
Hey Guys!

I will face a 2700 pts DeathGuard/Nugle Daemons army this weekend. He brings A LOT of bodies (poxwalker/cultists/marines)

What do you think about this list?
Im thinking about ditching the blades and get another warrior screen within the nephrek outrider instead. but i guess both choices are quite comparable.

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Necrons) [90 PL, 1687pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Sautekh

+ HQ +

Cryptek [5 PL, 95pts]: Chronometron, Staff of Light

Imotekh the Stormlord [10 PL, 200pts]
. Warlord: Warlord Trait (Sautekh): Hyperlogical Strategist

+ Troops +

Immortals [8 PL, 170pts]: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine

Immortals [8 PL, 170pts]: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine

Necron Warriors [12 PL, 192pts]: 16x Necron Warrior

+ Elites +

C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer [12 PL, 210pts]

+ Fast Attack +

Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 52pts]: 4x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

Canoptek Tomb Sentinel [9 PL, 180pts]

+ Heavy Support +

Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]

Transcendent C'tan [12 PL, 225pts]: Fractured Personality: Cosmic Tyrant, Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Necrons) [59 PL, 1023pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Nephrekh

+ HQ +

Cryptek [5 PL, 85pts]: Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light

Destroyer Lord [7 PL, 131pts]: Artefact: The Nanoscarab Casket, Phylactery, Warscythe

+ Fast Attack +

Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 52pts]: 4x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

Canoptek Wraiths [18 PL, 330pts]: 6x Canoptek Wraith

Destroyers [15 PL, 250pts]
. 5x Destroyer: 5x Gauss Cannon

Tomb Blades [10 PL, 175pts]
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine

++ Total: [149 PL, 2710pts] ++


Its supposed to be a friendly, otherwise we wouldnt play that many points. My opponent will field a great unclean one, which i have still no idea how to defeat. Any hints?

cheers & have a good day


First question would be why the sentinel?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
 vict0988 wrote:
Curious79 wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
I have 5 games with TPs, 2 with Shieldguard and 1 with Scytheguard pre-codex, 3, 0, and 4 games post-codex for TPs, Shieldguard and Scytheguard respectively, they can be very fun to play just don't expect them to win you any tournament games.


Have you examples of lists that have worked well, as I always find it hard to get LG into CC with a supporting HQ and especially TP as they move 10” I would be really interested in hearing how you over came these problems

Pre-codex I did okay with LG-Deceiver combo for a turn 2 charge, but you'll be toast against many armies, if your opponent has enough chaff then your LG are going to be sad. They're pretty good at cutting down Primarchs though and perhabs that's part of why I had success with my elite melee units, because many of my opponents at the time were using those or otherwise plain bad armies, I was also facing a lot of generals who weren't very good when I was testing LG.

TPs is all about target saturation for your opponent's shooting and staying behind your chaff (Warriors/Scarabs/Wraiths) and jumping out in front. TPs can't be targeted for MWBD except by Anrakyr and can't benefit from Technomancer except from Szeras. Keep in mind that you don't measure vertical distance on charge anymore, that's a good reason to take TPs over LG. For all melee units you need to be meticulous in how you pile in and consolidate, maximize shooting denial while minimizing the Overwatch you have to suffer.

The times when Necrons are strongest is when facing a bad opponent who fails to respect RP and that goes for LG and TPs as well, if your opponent gets first turn, shoots down your chaff/shooting units and then turn 2 deletes your LG/TP units one at a time, then they won't be great. But if your opponent lets you make 40 RP rolls for your elite infantry units over the course of the game, then you'll probably do great. Playing on tables with enough terrain and with the ITC rules is a huge deal, hiding 2 or 3 models out of sight through a conga-line could allow you to RP for the entire unit. Post-codex I've just been losing a lot,
but the one with which I had the most success is probably my Anrakyr/Szeras list which features a single unit of Triarch Praetorians.


I would love to see that list and how you managed to keep the HQs up with the. TPs with their extra movement





Sentinel: I like my tombstalker model and always play it as a distraction sentinel. arriving on turn 2 and sniping charackters.

In all of my games TP where underwhelimg. i sometimes use them to screen the Nightbringer, since they can keep up with him and 10 of them are hard to kill with t5, 2 wounds and moraleimmune. you have to pick your fights with them, only bringing their points vs MEQ imho.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/14 09:22:57


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Has anyone tried Kutlakh the World Killer from the FW range. He has an interesting rule where you can charge and advance for all friendly infantry within 12" thats crazy. Perhaps this could be an alternative to get Flayed ones into CC. Really though I see 2 or maybe even 3 blobs of Praetoreans with hypherphase swords, with Anarkyr nearby to get +1 attack to at least 2 units, MWBD for extra range and hitting power, maybe even have 3 units depending on positioning. Add a Chrono Cryptek with 5++ invul and you got some nastyness.


What about Tolohk the Blinded, his D3 Living metal to friendly vehicles seems good as well. Park him next to a DDA, Monolith, TV, etc... But the icing on the cake, he gets two chances to seize initiative. We all know how important going first is.

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 Dynas wrote:
Has anyone tried Kutlakh the World Killer from the FW range. He has an interesting rule where you can charge and advance for all friendly infantry within 12" thats crazy. Perhaps this could be an alternative to get Flayed ones into CC. Really though I see 2 or maybe even 3 blobs of Praetoreans with hypherphase swords, with Anarkyr nearby to get +1 attack to at least 2 units, MWBD for extra range and hitting power, maybe even have 3 units depending on positioning. Add a Chrono Cryptek with 5++ invul and you got some nastyness.


What about Tolohk the Blinded, his D3 Living metal to friendly vehicles seems good as well. Park him next to a DDA, Monolith, TV, etc... But the icing on the cake, he gets two chances to seize initiative. We all know how important going first is.



In regards to 'big K', I think that the issue is still footslogging. With Lychguard or FO, you're looking at an average move of...5+1 (for mwbd) + d6 = 9.5 inches, which isn't that impressive sadly.
I'm of the opinion at this point, Night Scythes are the safest and most reliable way to deliver one of those squads for a charge with the stratagem to beam them down, or otherwise keep them safe should the scythe pop.

As far as Toholk goes, a cloak cryptek can do that same d3 living metal trick. The seize trick is handy, true.


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MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
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 iGuy91 wrote:
 Dynas wrote:
Has anyone tried Kutlakh the World Killer from the FW range. He has an interesting rule where you can charge and advance for all friendly infantry within 12" thats crazy. Perhaps this could be an alternative to get Flayed ones into CC. Really though I see 2 or maybe even 3 blobs of Praetoreans with hypherphase swords, with Anarkyr nearby to get +1 attack to at least 2 units, MWBD for extra range and hitting power, maybe even have 3 units depending on positioning. Add a Chrono Cryptek with 5++ invul and you got some nastyness.


What about Tolohk the Blinded, his D3 Living metal to friendly vehicles seems good as well. Park him next to a DDA, Monolith, TV, etc... But the icing on the cake, he gets two chances to seize initiative. We all know how important going first is.



In regards to 'big K', I think that the issue is still footslogging. With Lychguard or FO, you're looking at an average move of...5+1 (for mwbd) + d6 = 9.5 inches, which isn't that impressive sadly.
I'm of the opinion at this point, Night Scythes are the safest and most reliable way to deliver one of those squads for a charge with the stratagem to beam them down, or otherwise keep them safe should the scythe pop.

As far as Toholk goes, a cloak cryptek can do that same d3 living metal trick. The seize trick is handy, true.


That's unless you treat him as Nephrekh. That's basically an 11" move for Flayed Ones and Lychguard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Yes, I will let others do the thinking for me in some cases. I can only play about a game a week. They can and DO play 10+ a week against other players that also do the same. I can't compete with that.
What I can do is create a spreadsheet that tells me that Flayed Ones suck.
Then I can look at top necron lists and see 0 Flayed Ones there. Those players would crush you turn 3 three. Because compared to them, you probably suck. And that's not your fault. It's just that they spend a ludicrous amount of time playing the game every week. Fact is - they probably know better than you.

Now let's put 2 and 2 together:
Bad on paper (mathammer)
Bad on the table (tournament results)
=
BAD

The fact that you compare them to wraiths but add a bunch of buffs to Flayed Ones and call it "fair". Why not add the amount of points the character takes up? Why not add the fact that they will get wiped turn 1 so they don't get RP. If 20 T4 5++ 5+++ genestealers always die in 1 turn - so will 20 flayed ones. Nothing will stay on the table for more than a turn or two if your opponent focuses it in 8th edition. If he wants that unit to die - it will die unless he brought a garbage list.

I'm not discussing this any further: I've said my part. It's as clear cut as you can get.

Except Flayed Ones aren't bad mathematically. Please prove it by all means.

They don't get used because of mobility issues.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/14 14:54:34


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 iGuy91 wrote:
 Dynas wrote:
Has anyone tried Kutlakh the World Killer from the FW range. He has an interesting rule where you can charge and advance for all friendly infantry within 12" thats crazy. Perhaps this could be an alternative to get Flayed ones into CC. Really though I see 2 or maybe even 3 blobs of Praetoreans with hypherphase swords, with Anarkyr nearby to get +1 attack to at least 2 units, MWBD for extra range and hitting power, maybe even have 3 units depending on positioning. Add a Chrono Cryptek with 5++ invul and you got some nastyness.


What about Tolohk the Blinded, his D3 Living metal to friendly vehicles seems good as well. Park him next to a DDA, Monolith, TV, etc... But the icing on the cake, he gets two chances to seize initiative. We all know how important going first is.



In regards to 'big K', I think that the issue is still footslogging. With Lychguard or FO, you're looking at an average move of...5+1 (for mwbd) + d6 = 9.5 inches, which isn't that impressive sadly.
I'm of the opinion at this point, Night Scythes are the safest and most reliable way to deliver one of those squads for a charge with the stratagem to beam them down, or otherwise keep them safe should the scythe pop.

As far as Toholk goes, a cloak cryptek can do that same d3 living metal trick. The seize trick is handy, true.



You still risk it getting gunned down turn 1 before you can beam them out turn 2, dont you? You cant emergency beam them out midfield turn 1 per the new FAQ
   
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Eaton Rapids, MI

That can't be right. The emergency beam has to over ride that as intended I'm sure, does it state in that Faq specifically the emergency invasion beam?

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Yes, I will let others do the thinking for me in some cases. I can only play about a game a week. They can and DO play 10+ a week against other players that also do the same. I can't compete with that.
What I can do is create a spreadsheet that tells me that Flayed Ones suck.
Then I can look at top necron lists and see 0 Flayed Ones there. Those players would crush you turn 3 three. Because compared to them, you probably suck. And that's not your fault. It's just that they spend a ludicrous amount of time playing the game every week. Fact is - they probably know better than you.


That's not a fact, that's an opinion with minimal evidence to support it.

Bad on paper (mathammer)


But they aren't. They hit harder then Wraiths against basically all targets. They hit twice as hard as Wraiths against their prime target, infantry. Your perception of them is simply and completely false.

Bad on the table (tournament results)


No evidence isn't evidence.


The fact that you compare them to wraiths but add a bunch of buffs to Flayed Ones and call it "fair"


I didn't add anything to the FOs offenseive ability to make the comparison at all. Don't be obtuse. I did add the Cryptek to their defensive resilience, but this a mandatory take anyway. You are forced to take at least one HQ, and Wraiths simply don't benefit Chronoteks.

Why not add the fact that they will get wiped turn 1 so they don't get RP. If 20 T4 5++ 5+++ genestealers always die in 1 turn - so will 20 flayed ones. Nothing will stay on the table for more than a turn or two if your opponent focuses it in 8th edition. If he wants that unit to die - it will die unless he brought a garbage list.


They don't come in turn 1.

Sure, everything in the game can die if you focus it. If you play 20 FOs correctly they will survive more often then not for at least a round of shooting, but it's a dice game. Anything can happen.

I'm not discussing this any further: I've said my part. It's as clear cut as you can get.


Yeah, it's clear cut you have nothing to backup your argument except the null hypothesis and special pleading.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/14 16:18:15


 
   
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Except why do you need to address GEQs and MEQs in melee? That's what your Warriors and Immortals are for.

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