Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was playing a game with Necrons, and an OverLord who had a res orb was killed, along with some warriors he was in a squad with. All that was left was 1 warrior. My question is on the Reanimation roll, if I sucessfully bring back the Overlord, can my Necrons use the Orb on their rolls?

Also if all the warriors were brought down, and the lord was brought down and I sucessfully brought back the Overlord, would I be allowed to bring back the warriors?

Mikeb43 wrote: I was playing a game with Necrons, and an OverLord who had a res orb was killed, along with some warriors he was in a squad with. All that was left was 1 warrior. My question is on the Reanimation roll, if I sucessfully bring back the Overlord, can my Necrons use the Orb on their rolls?

I would say no because all the rolls are made at the end of te phase, and at the time the rolls are made there is no bearer with the orb.

Mikeb43 wrote:Also if all the warriors were brought down, and the lord was brought down and I sucessfully brought back the Overlord, would I be allowed to bring back the warriors?

No because characters do not count as part of the unit for the reanimation protocol. Once the last warrior has been removed, the unit of warriors is destroyed.

Rez Orb allows the bearer and the unit he is with to pass RP rolls on a 4+ instead of the normal 5+ (numbers might be wrong, don't have the codex). The ONLY time a Rez Orb comes into play is during RP rolls, so yes you would benefit from the Rez Orb. However, if the Overlord fails his roll, in subsequent phases, the warriors would not have the benefit of it.
If the Overlord is part of the unit (again no codex) via the "HQ choice that can separate and join other unit" ability (God why can't I remember what that's called?) he is part of the unit. Though of course if you want to read more debate on this check out this thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/413090.page

time wizard wrote:

Mikeb43 wrote: I was playing a game with Necrons, and an OverLord who had a res orb was killed, along with some warriors he was in a squad with. All that was left was 1 warrior. My question is on the Reanimation roll, if I sucessfully bring back the Overlord, can my Necrons use the Orb on their rolls?

I would say no because all the rolls are made at the end of te phase, and at the time the rolls are made there is no bearer with the orb.

The problem with that interpretation is that the Overlord then wouldn't be able to use the 4+ roll, since he's not on the table when he takes the roll.

I currently play it as the Orb is in effect until the Overlord fails an RP roll and is completely gone from the table, and nobody I've asked locally has had a problem with that. Another way I could see it working is that the check for the Orb occurs when a model is downed and replaced with a counter. So anybody who dies before, or in the same round of shooting as the Overlord gets the 4+ RP roll. Anyone who dies after gets a 5+.

Dytalus wrote:The problem with that interpretation is that the Overlord then wouldn't be able to use the 4+ roll, since he's not on the table when he takes the roll.

Correct. That's what the rule says to do. When he is removed as a casulaty place a counter where he had been.

He is no longer on the table, and neither is the res orb.

I don't see how he could use the advantage of a piece of wargear that is not present at that time.

Well then what's the point of a Res Orb? It specifies that the bearer gets its bonus. So it must count as being in play even when he's just a counter. There's no other way it could work.

Dytalus wrote:Well then what's the point of a Res Orb? It specifies that the bearer gets its bonus. So it must count as being in play even when he's just a counter. There's no other way it could work.

No, it states the bearer and his unit.

But you bring up a good point about how he get the res orb benefit if he isn't on the table.

If he is with a unit, and the unit is wiped out, they get no chance to roll at all.

If he's with a unit, and he goes down, when he comes back up he must be placed in coherency with that unit, so do the models in the unit gain the benefit of the res orb?

They should, but is he part of the unit before you roll for him to return?

Just another screwed up rule that asks more questions than it answers.

"The bearer of the resurrection orb (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocols rolls on a 4+"
The only thing the resurrection orb cares about is Reanimation Protocol rolls. If the bearer (and his unit) are making Reanimation Protocol rolls, they pass on a 4+. The rule cares for nothing else. The rule doesn't care when the casualties happen, just when you are making the rolls.

Not especially. There are a lot of Necron rules which are plenty clear for gaming purposes, and people seem to be misconstruing them for whatever reason.

Is he a part of the unit when models in the unit die, including himself? If yes, then they get a 4+ roll. Simple as that. If the Overlord is no longer on the table at all (ie, he failed an RP roll) then nobody gets the 4+ roll.

I thought this had already been addressed....

The ResOrb effect is a general effect bestowed to the unit by the bear (a unit might be just the bearer). The "check" of the effect of the Orb is made when the model is removed from play.

If the Orb is on the table prior to removing the model, the model has a 4+ RP roll. If the Orb is NOT on the table prior to removing the model the model has a 5+ RP roll. It's that simple.

If I remember the last thread correctly, the majority believes that only after the bearer of the orb fails his RP roll, the orb stops to benefit the unit.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:I thought this had already been addressed....

The ResOrb effect is a general effect bestowed to the unit by the bear (a unit might be just the bearer). The "check" of the effect of the Orb is made when the model is removed from play.

If the Orb is on the table prior to removing the model, the model has a 4+ RP roll. If the Orb is NOT on the table prior to removing the model the model has a 5+ RP roll. It's that simple.

Where does it state that? You seem to be using a mixture of old WBB and new RP.

You can see his argument (and others counter-argument) at the thread I posted. Either make a decision based on that and discuss with your opponent if you think there will be problems, or, if at a tourney, ask the TO.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:I thought this had already been addressed....

The ResOrb effect is a general effect bestowed to the unit by the bear (a unit might be just the bearer). The "check" of the effect of the Orb is made when the model is removed from play.

If the Orb is on the table prior to removing the model, the model has a 4+ RP roll. If the Orb is NOT on the table prior to removing the model the model has a 5+ RP roll. It's that simple.

The only "check" you do, is when you are rolling for Reanimation Protocol.

Are you making Reanimation Protocol rolls for the bearer (or his unit) of a resurrection orb? Yes, then they pass on a 4+. It is that simple.

TGA - it was only "settled" because you decided it didnt follow its own rules.

THe bearer passes on a 4+. His own RP roll is on a 4+
Your method ignores the clear and unambiguous rule

The "clear and unambiguous" rule state the bearer and the unit he is with get a 4+ RP roll. The ResOrb is a piece of wargear thus only works when on the table.

From my post in the previous thread:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:
The "check" you're so concerned about happens as a normal part of game play. Was the piece of wargear available when the model was removed from play? If so, the model benefits from the wargear, if not, no benefit.

The rules of the ResOrb DO NOT state the check is made at the time of the RP roll, just that the a model GET a better RP roll. That's two separate and ideas.

The ResOrb is a piece of wargear and thus behaves just like all other pieces of wargear: unless specified otherwise, it only works when on the table. Thus, my quote above is the only valid interpretation (much like how the Orb was handled in the previous codex). Any other interpretation involves convoluted means of wargear working when not on the table.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
THe bearer passes on a 4+. His own RP roll is on a 4+
Your method ignores the clear and unambiguous rule

No it doesn't. Reread what I said, check to see if the ResOrb is on the table prior to removing the model. In the case of the bearer being lost as a causality, check to see if the ResOrb is on the table prior to removing the bearer, since the bearer IS the one with the ResOrb, the model (bearer) benefits from the Orb prior to being removed from play.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:
No it doesn't. Reread what I said, check to see if the ResOrb is on the table prior to removing the model. In the case of the bearer being lost as a causality, check to see if the ResOrb is on the table prior to removing the bearer, since the bearer IS the one with the ResOrb, the model (bearer) benefits from the Orb prior to being removed from play.

Ok, old WBB required you to check if lord has Res Orb or if the models were in range of it when they died. However like I've said before there is nothing that forces you to make a check in the new RP. It just states bearer of the Res Orb and his unit pass their RP on 4+ instead of regular 5+. There are two possible ways how RP can go:

The Res Orb is a wargear therefore it doesn't work when the bearer is removed from play and waiting that phase's end to make his RP. Hence bearer of the Res Orb can never benefit from it which contradicts the Res Orb rule itself.

Bearer of the Res Orb and his unit pass their RP on 4+ until bearer fails it's RP roll at the end of that phase and leaves the table for good.

Maybe I'm missing something here and I'd be very glad if you could show us where in the codex it's stated that you make a check.

Some people believe that the new orb should behave just like the old orb. The new wording doesn't agree with that. Yet maybe a faq should be made to clear things up. Sometimes old habits die hard...

It's not that the new wording doesn't agree with that. It's the new wording doesn't cover when the check is made. All we have to go on is logic, and the most logical choice is Cyrax's second option. Otherwise the Orbs bearer can never benefit from the orb, which is a direct contradiction with its ruleset.

Dytalus wrote:It's not that the new wording doesn't agree with that. It's the new wording doesn't cover when the check is made. All we have to go on is logic, and the most logical choice is Cyrax's second option. Otherwise the Orbs bearer can never benefit from the orb, which is a direct contradiction with its ruleset.

I agree to this. IMO the spirit of the rule is clearly visible. I'll play it like this.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:The ResOrb is a piece of wargear and thus behaves just like all other pieces of wargear: unless specified otherwise, it only works when on the table.

Where is this stated? I know of specific pieces of wargear (Narthecium and Company Standard, the only two I know off the top of my head) that state this, but no rule that says all wargear acts this way.

In fact the phylactery explicitly works when off the table....

This whole argument is a big excercise in mental masturbation, anyhow. We all know what the intent was and how it will eventually be FAQed. A better question to ask would be about the interaction of Trazyn's abilities with RP and what happens if the only model of a unit left is a royal court model.

nosferatu1001 wrote:In fact the phylactery explicitly works when off the table....

Nail meet coffin.

The debate is a bit absurd. I would personally punch some one in the taint if they said the 30pt piece of wargear doesn't even work for the model I purchased it for.

Cyrax wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:
No it doesn't. Reread what I said, check to see if the ResOrb is on the table prior to removing the model. In the case of the bearer being lost as a causality, check to see if the ResOrb is on the table prior to removing the bearer, since the bearer IS the one with the ResOrb, the model (bearer) benefits from the Orb prior to being removed from play.

Ok, old WBB required you to check if lord has Res Orb or if the models were in range of it when they died. However like I've said before there is nothing that forces you to make a check in the new RP. It just states bearer of the Res Orb and his unit pass their RP on 4+ instead of regular 5+. There are two possible ways how RP can go:

The Res Orb is a wargear therefore it doesn't work when the bearer is removed from play and waiting that phase's end to make his RP. Hence bearer of the Res Orb can never benefit from it which contradicts the Res Orb rule itself.

Bearer of the Res Orb and his unit pass their RP on 4+ until bearer fails it's RP roll at the end of that phase and leaves the table for good.

Maybe I'm missing something here and I'd be very glad if you could show us where in the codex it's stated that you make a check.

I've stated how the ResOrb works within the confines of the rules and such. The bearer is NOT on the table at the time of the RP roll thus the ResOrb is NOT a factor. The wargear works as the model is being removed from play. It's the only way to fit the logic within the confines of the game. With RP, the model is physically removed from the game play/table as a causality, thus is no longer part of the game. No wargear, no powers, nothing. Period.

As mentioned in a previous post, this is similar to how the ResOrb worked in the past, the same logic applies here. Otherwise, you have wargear that works when removed from game play and that hasn't been proven yet.

nosferatu1001 wrote:In fact the phylactery explicitly works when off the table....

Actually, no it doesn't. The model that passes its RP roll rejoins its unit and benefits from the phylactery. Notice it's AFTER the RP roll, not before. Thus, the model is on the table and part of the game, not off the table not part of the game.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Nail meet coffin.

If by nail meet coffin, you mean nos hasn't proven a thing yet and phylactery is used AFTER the model has rejoined the game, then yes, yes the nail has met the coffin.

Wrong, as you were corrected in the previous thread - you roll the D3 while the model is off the table; the model doesnt appear and then you roll the D3

So, you still havent proven a single thing, including your base premise.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:In fact the phylactery explicitly works when off the table....

Actually, no it doesn't. The model that passes its RP roll rejoins its unit and benefits from the phylactery. Notice it's AFTER the RP roll, not before. Thus, the model is on the table and part of the game, not off the table not part of the game.

Necrons Codex, page 82, Phylactery: One use only. A model with phylactery that passes his first Reanimation Protocols roll returns to play with D3 wounds. You're right about rolling for phylactery after the the RP roll. However as you can see from the rule itself, the model doesn't return to play until a D3 is rolled for the phylactery.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Wrong, as you were corrected in the previous thread - you roll the D3 while the model is off the table; the model doesnt appear and then you roll the D3

So, you still havent proven a single thing, including your base premise.

The model is part of the game once it the RP roll is made thus the wargear comes into play. It's not roll a D3 then roll for RP now is it.

How is my premise wrong, again. You keep saying that with out much to back it up......

Read the Phylactery rule again. The model is placed on the table with D3 wounds, which means the roll has to occur before it returns to the table. The Phylactery roll occurs before it returns to play, but after the RP roll.

TGA - apparentky resding the rule was too much for yiu.

The model is returned to play with d3 wounds, ie before they appear on the table the phylactery is used. Which, accordibg to yiur as yet unproven assumption means they are NOT in play, and wargear cannot function

Guess you're still wrong thrn