Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"What part of AFTER the RP roll is made the model is part of the game. "

Wrong, you are still utterly and totally ignoring the actual rules in favour of an entirely made up interpretation that has no basis in actual English parsing of the sentence

Look, you're the one that stated the phylactery is used when the model has been removed from play. I'm saying once the model has made it's RP roll, the model is considered back in the game and free to use wargear. This is not some made up interpretation. This is directly from the the RP.

Necron Codex, page 29 wrote:
...On a 5 or 6, a Necron reassembles itself and continues to fight....

Necron Codex, page 82 wrote:
A model with a phylactery that passes his first Reanimation Protocol roll returns to play with D3 Wounds.

So, the model removed from game play rolls for RP. If successful, the model is returned to game play and rolls a D3 to determine how many wounds the model returns with.

You had used Phylactery to proof there is wargear used when even when the model has been removed from game play to justify your argument the ResOrb is used when RP rolls made. I've shown phylactery is only used when the model has reentered the game via the RP roll. So the use of Phylactery is moot.

Address the issues of the ResOrb such as prove the ResOrb functions after the bearer has been removed from game play.

No. No matter how many times you try to say it, the rule does NOT state that the model is returned to play and THEN you roll for d3 wounds....

It CLEARLY states the model is turned to play WITH d3 wounds.

By the time the model is placed on the table, you have already rolled for phylactery...

TGA - and, again, you are wilfully ignoring the phylactery rules.

You are returned WITH D3 wounds. You are not in play when you roll the D3 wounds. Otherwise you are claiming the phylactery rules are lying.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Well, when you make up an argument that doesnt exist then yes, it will be "difficult" for you to argue against it.

Sigh

My argument is that, AFTER you make the RP roll but BEFORE you return the model to play, you MUST roll the phylactery - because that is how the rule reads

The EL model is returned to play WITH D3 wounds, not WILL HAVE D3 wounds.

You are still entirely utterly 100% wrong

I was dead set against your 'argument', but then I saw your expert use of capitalization and that won me over. Once again this goes nowhere fast. Moving along now.

-Yad

Oh joy, Yad attempting sarcasm.

Your expert use of making up arguments that someone isnt working truly makes it difficult to debate with you. Its like someone looking at a lake and seeing a banana

BarBoBot wrote:No. No matter how many times you try to say it, the rule does NOT state that the model is returned to play and THEN you roll for d3 wounds....

It CLEARLY states the model is turned to play WITH d3 wounds.

By the time the model is placed on the table, you have already rolled for phylactery...

Agreed. The model is potentially returned to play with D3 wounds. However, the the extra wound are rolled for AFTER the the RP roll has been made. In other words, after the model and been reanimated, i.e. returned to play.

Phylactery doesn't happen when the model has been removed from play as a casualty. Phylactery happens after the model has been reanimated and returned to play, part of that play is using the Phylactery piece of wargear.

Again, this thread is dealing with the ResOrb being used AFTER the bearer has been removed from play. Phylactery is used when the model returns thus is not relevant to this discussion.

Excelt phylactery states it is returned WITH D3 wounds, not WILL BE returned with D3 wounds. Meaning you roll BEFORE the model has been returned to play.

Again, stop ignoring the actual rules in order to prop up your floundering argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Excelt phylactery states it is returned WITH D3 wounds, not WILL BE returned with D3 wounds. Meaning you roll BEFORE the model has been returned to play.

Again, stop ignoring the actual rules in order to prop up your floundering argument.

Sigh, the Phylactery roll is made AFTER the RP roll. Without the successful RP roll the Phylactery roll cannot be made, ergo, Phylactery happens AFTER the model has been brought back into play. Also, the use of Phylactery is optionally used piece of wargear.

Now, speaking of floundering arguments...You still haven't come even remotely close to showing how the ResOrb works when the bearer has been removed from game play.

It happens AFTER the RP roll, BEFORE the model is returned to play. It inserts itself in the middle. And the Res Orb works when the model is removed because it must or it contradicts its own rule.

TGA - sigh

You apparently enjoy ignoring the rules. Again

The model is RETURNED TO PLAY WITH D3 WOUNDS.

That means that he has D3 wounds BEFORE returning to play

Meaning your argument is still bunk

Understand yet?

From the new Necron FAQ:

Q: If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170012a_Necron_FAQ_Version_2_0_January_2012.pdf

Yep. A number of us stand corrected on that one.

As well as a character with RP and EL getting removed when the unit it is attached to is wiped out.

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

So EL gives a character a chance to return even if the entire unit it is attached to is wiped out. Except for sweeping advance of course!

time wizard wrote:Except for sweeping advance of course!

Well, if these 6th edition rumors are correct then WBB after that one too.

time wizard wrote:Yep. A number of us stand corrected on that one.

As well as a character with RP and EL getting removed when the unit it is attached to is wiped out.

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

So EL gives a character a chance to return even if the entire unit it is attached to is wiped out. Except for sweeping advance of course!

What say you TheGreatAvatar after all that opinion on the matter?

Also, the other "easy" issue of EL and RP as described by the 'knowitalls" was also FAQ'd and addressed.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/408670.page

Byte wrote:What say you TheGreatAvatar after all that opinion on the matter?

Also, the other "easy" issue of EL and RP as described by the 'knowitalls" was also FAQ'd and addressed.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/408670.page

Don't provoke him, he might call the new FAQ wrong.

time wizard wrote:Yep. A number of us stand corrected on that one.

As well as a character with RP and EL getting removed when the unit it is attached to is wiped out.

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

So EL gives a character a chance to return even if the entire unit it is attached to is wiped out. Except for sweeping advance of course!

A unit wiped out by sweeping advance? Place a EL counter. Roll for such EL counter. Sweeping advance doesn't say anything about removing counters only models. According to this FAQ, you get an EL roll even if the unit is wiped out by sweeping advance.

Or am I wrong?

You can place a counter when your model is removed from play as casualty. Since sweeping advance simply removes them from play you can't place a counter.

Cyrax wrote:You can place a counter when your model is removed from play as casualty. Since sweeping advance simply removes them from play you can't place a counter.

This FAQ says nothing about removed from play. It says wiped out. A unit entirely removed from play, blow off the table, vaporized or killed to the Nth degree - they're still wiped out. And as such they get an EL roll.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
A unit wiped out by sweeping advance? Place a EL counter. Roll for such EL counter. Sweeping advance doesn't say anything about removing counters only models. According to this FAQ, you get an EL roll even if the unit is wiped out by sweeping advance.

Or am I wrong?

Sorry but you're wrong. Sweeping advance doesn't say anything about removing anything. Not counters, not models, not even units. What it does say is "The falling back unit is destroyed."

It also says that no save or other special rule can save the unit, so neither RP or EL does anything if the unit is caught in a sweeping advance.

It is simply destroyed.

Unless of course you're St Celestine. She can (try to) come back from Remove from Play abilities as well as Remove from Play as a Casualty...

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Cyrax wrote:You can place a counter when your model is removed from play as casualty. Since sweeping advance simply removes them from play you can't place a counter.

This FAQ says nothing about removed from play. It says wiped out. A unit entirely removed from play, blow off the table, vaporized or killed to the Nth degree - they're still wiped out. And as such they get an EL roll.

Sweeping Advance is even more specific - nothing can save a model from being Swept unless it has explicit protection, like ATSKNF. Everliving doesn't mention SA, so it doesn't save models with it.

Happyjew wrote:Unless of course you're St Celestine. She can (try to) come back from Remove from Play abilities as well as Remove from Play as a Casualty...

Yes she can, but sweeping advance does not either remove a model or unit as a casualty, or remove a model or unit from play, the unit is simply destroyed.

Ste. Celestine, and any other model or unit for that matter, would need a specific rule that says they are immune to sweeping advance to survive it.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Cyrax wrote:You can place a counter when your model is removed from play as casualty. Since sweeping advance simply removes them from play you can't place a counter.

This FAQ says nothing about removed from play. It says wiped out. A unit entirely removed from play, blow off the table, vaporized or killed to the Nth degree - they're still wiped out. And as such they get an EL roll.

Unfortunately you still have to follow SA and RP rules, the FAQ doesn't override them.

I'm not seeing a contradiction. Yes of course, the unit is destroyed and removed from play, and cannot be saved by any special rule.

Put an EL counter where the destroyed character was. You can't stop it, nothing can stop it from being destroyed and removed! Not even as a casualty. Just remove the character from play.

It was destroyed. Now put a token where it was. Now, roll for EL to see if the character reanimates.

Nemesor Dave wrote:I'm not seeing a contradiction. Yes of course, the unit is destroyed and removed from play, and cannot be saved by any special rule.

I emphasised a portion of your post.

Now look at page 29 of Codex Necrons.

Both reanimation protocols and ever-living are listed in the section titled "Necron Special Rules".

Since the destroyed unit cannot be saved by any special rule, the special rules RP and EL cannot save them.

Unless they had a rule that specifically said they were not destroyed by a sweeping advance like ATSKNF as MasterSlowPoke pointed out.

I'm convinced. However I'd still like it if GW would actually come out and say No or Yes vs. sweeping advance. I suppose this still leaves in doubt JAWS allowing or not EL, or is there consensus now that EL and RP work vs JAWS?

IIRC, RP/EL only work when removed as a casualty. since JotWW do not remove models as a casualty, they would not get the roll.

Byte wrote:

time wizard wrote:Yep. A number of us stand corrected on that one.

As well as a character with RP and EL getting removed when the unit it is attached to is wiped out.

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

So EL gives a character a chance to return even if the entire unit it is attached to is wiped out. Except for sweeping advance of course!

What say you TheGreatAvatar after all that opinion on the matter?

Also, the other "easy" issue of EL and RP as described by the 'knowitalls" was also FAQ'd and addressed.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/408670.page

It's not a matter of being right or wrong. It's not like GW is taking sides on the debate. The clarifications have been made so there is little room for further debate. I wasn't surprised by most of the clarifications, including how models created are placed with a unit (no Spyder conga line! what a surprise!!). I was surprised on the ResOrb ruling since it is a bit counter-intuitive having wargear work when not in play (like the previous how the previous ResOrb worked).

TheGreatAvatar wrote:I was surprised on the ResOrb ruling since it is a bit counter-intuitive having wargear work when not in play (like the previous how the previous ResOrb worked).

Actually, in the previous edition, the res orb worked for the lord equipped with it even after he had been a casualty.

From page 13 of the last Necron Codex, the lord can't self repair if it lost it's last wound to a cc weapon that allowed no armor save or a weapon with strength twice the lord's toughness, "...unless it or another Necron Lord within 6" has a Resurrection Orb."

So a lord that had an orb and was removed that way would have had the chance to roll for WBB.

The difference between then and now was that under the old rules, if the Lord with the res orb was removed before the unit, they could not benefit from the res orb.

In the new rule, both the model with the res orb and the unit it is with benefit from the res orb, regardless of when the model with the res orb is removed.

Yep, previously it was a matter of timing, and worked while off table for the bearer AND any model removed prior to the lords removal, contrary to TGAs assertions that wargear never worked while off table....