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nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - apparentky resding the rule was too much for yiu.

The model is returned to play with d3 wounds, ie before they appear on the table the phylactery is used. Which, accordibg to yiur as yet unproven assumption means they are NOT in play, and wargear cannot function

Guess you're still wrong thrn

What rule permits the ResOrb to function when not in play? If the bearer is removed from game play, how can its wargear still be used? This is the discussion.

Phylactery happens AFTER the model has been reanimated NOT when its been removed from game play so it's not the same as the ResOrb being affective while not in play.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Phylactery happens AFTER the model has been reanimated NOT when its been removed from game play so it's not the same as the ResOrb being affective while not in play.

But you roll before the model is returned to play - as it's returned to play with D3 wounds, it must function while the model is out of play.

rigeld2 wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Phylactery happens AFTER the model has been reanimated NOT when its been removed from game play so it's not the same as the ResOrb being affective while not in play.

But you roll before the model is returned to play - as it's returned to play with D3 wounds, it must function while the model is out of play.

This really kills the arguement that res orb wont work if the character with it is not currently on the table.

If wargear doesnt work unless its on the board, then phylactery wouldnt work either, but we know it does.

Besides, isnt it clear when the res orb rule says the BEARER AND his unit benefit from it? How can the bearer benefit from it if it doesnt work when he goes to make his RP roll?

seems pretty cut and dry.

BarBoBot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Phylactery happens AFTER the model has been reanimated NOT when its been removed from game play so it's not the same as the ResOrb being affective while not in play.

But you roll before the model is returned to play - as it's returned to play with D3 wounds, it must function while the model is out of play.

This really kills the arguement that res orb wont work if the character with it is not currently on the table.

If wargear doesnt work unless its on the board, then phylactery wouldnt work either, but we know it does.

There a HUGE difference between a piece of wargear affecting a model after coming into play (Phylactery) versus a piece of wargear affecting a model that has been removed from game play (ResOrb).

Besides, isnt it clear when the res orb rule says the BEARER AND his unit benefit from it? How can the bearer benefit from it if it doesnt work when he goes to make his RP roll?

seems pretty cut and dry.

Actually, I've shown how it works. What hasn't been shown is that wargear works when the model has been removed from game play.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

BarBoBot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Phylactery happens AFTER the model has been reanimated NOT when its been removed from game play so it's not the same as the ResOrb being affective while not in play.

But you roll before the model is returned to play - as it's returned to play with D3 wounds, it must function while the model is out of play.

This really kills the arguement that res orb wont work if the character with it is not currently on the table.

If wargear doesnt work unless its on the board, then phylactery wouldnt work either, but we know it does.

There a HUGE difference between a piece of wargear affecting a model after coming into play (Phylactery) versus a piece of wargear affecting a model that has been removed from game play (ResOrb).

I don't see how you're not getting this.

The Phylactery comes into play while the model is removed from play. The model is not return to play until you have already rolled for the Phylactery.

TGA - nope, apparently you still cant be bothered to read the Phylactery rules.

"A model with a phylactery that passes his Reanimation Protocols roll returns to play with D3 wounds"

So, from this you can determine that phylactery works before the model is returned to play, meaning he is NOT "in play" - yet the wargear works.

You do NOT return the model to play and then roll, he is returned WITH D3 wounds, not returned and then has D3 wounds

Guess this means your premise, for which you have no rules support, is still wrong.

Not sure why this why closed, but this is an old discussion that is a drama magnet.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/408670.page

Addresses this question is what was received as easy stuff. I think it still needs clarification to the community.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

BarBoBot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Phylactery happens AFTER the model has been reanimated NOT when its been removed from game play so it's not the same as the ResOrb being affective while not in play.

But you roll before the model is returned to play - as it's returned to play with D3 wounds, it must function while the model is out of play.

This really kills the arguement that res orb wont work if the character with it is not currently on the table.

If wargear doesnt work unless its on the board, then phylactery wouldnt work either, but we know it does.

There a HUGE difference between a piece of wargear affecting a model after coming into play (Phylactery) versus a piece of wargear affecting a model that has been removed from game play (ResOrb).

How does the Phylactery affect a model after coming into play, when the model doesn't return to play until [i]after[/i you've determined how many wounds he will return with? The model is returned to play with D3 wounds. Not "The models wounds are set to the result of a D3 after it is returned to play."

Can you explain how the Phylactery works, following the assumption that it does not work when it's off the table?

The Cryptek's wargear; Gaze of Flame and Ether Crystal, both give the bearer and the unit it is joined/with/attached a special rule/ability. These pieces of wargear specifically tells you the unit
loses the ability when the bearer is removed.

The Space Marine's wargear; Narthecium and Company Standard, both give the bearer and the unit it is joined/with/attached, or a bubble in the case of the Company Standard, a special
rule/ability. These pieces of wargear also specifically tells you the model must be alive for the rule/ability to have any affect.

The Resurrection Orb has no such restriction. You are adding rules were none exist.

Careful, ToBeWilly, someone (who would have to be incredibly stupid) could use that same argument to justify (for example) still shooting with a Tempest Launcher because after all "there are no rules saying the model has to be alive to use the weapon"

ToBeWilly wrote:
The Resurrection Orb has no such restriction. You are adding rules were none exist.

Show me where in the entire 40k universe a piece of wargear continues to function, unless explicitly stated, when the model has been removed from game play as a casualty. If the bear is removed from play, the ResOrb is also removed from play, i.e., it no longer works.

Further, if you insist the ResOrb continues to functoin when the bearer is remove from game play when does it no longer function? Until the RP roll fails? Remember, the bearer is removed from the game prior to any RP rolls. Nothing about the model, from the game's point of view, works. The bearer can't shoot, the bearer can't use wargear, the bearer is not part of the unit.

If the bearer is not part of the unit and its wargear no longer is effective, how does the ResOrb function? Occman's Razor: the ResOrb functions much like it did in the previous codex, meaning the check for the affect of the Orb happens prior to being removed from play. Otherwise, you have to introduce new rules allowing wargear to function after the model has been removed from the game.

So, you're now ignoring the phylactery, which proves your argument incorrect?

Classic.

Also if it the Resorb bearer couldnt benefit from it, it wouldnt state "the bearer of the ResOrb (and his unit) pass RP on 4+" In fact it is emphesising the bearer in that sentence, the unit is an afterthought.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Show me where in the entire 40k universe a piece of wargear continues to function, unless explicitly stated, when the model has been removed from game play as a casualty. If the bear is removed from play, the ResOrb is also removed from play, i.e., it no longer works.

The Phylactery and Resurrection Orb

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Further, if you insist the ResOrb continues to functoin when the bearer is remove from game play when does it no longer function? Until the RP roll fails? Remember, the bearer is removed from the game prior to any RP rolls. Nothing about the model, from the game's point of view, works. The bearer can't shoot, the bearer can't use wargear, the bearer is not part of the unit.

If you are making Reanimation Protocol rolls for the bearer of a Resurrection Orb (and his unit), they pass on a 4+. If you are making Reanimation Protocol rolls and there isn't a bearer of a Resurrection Orb (and his unit), then they pass on a 5+.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:If the bearer is not part of the unit and its wargear no longer is effective, how does the ResOrb function? Occman's Razor: the ResOrb functions much like it did in the previous codex, meaning the check for the affect of the Orb happens prior to being removed from play. Otherwise, you have to introduce new rules allowing wargear to function after the model has been removed from the game.

See above. The rule works without your assumption.

This is the dumbest argument I have seen. If I played the orb how some people on here want me to, there's no point to take it and waste the 30 points on something that has no way of affecting my list positively. The thing is 30 points and you're telling me I can't use it because you shot my lord first? What's the point?

Could the wording in the codex be clearer? Yes.

Would I respect an opponent that made me roll on a 5+? Not ever.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, you're now ignoring the phylactery, which proves your argument incorrect?

Classic.

I'm not ignoring it. The rule for phylactery states a model that has made its RP roll returns with d3 wounds. In other words, making its RP roll allows the model to no longer be dead and thus wargear and such can be used.

ToBeWilly wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Show me where in the entire 40k universe a piece of wargear continues to function, unless explicitly stated, when the model has been removed from game play as a casualty. If the bear is removed from play, the ResOrb is also removed from play, i.e., it no longer works.

The Phylactery and Resurrection Orb

Neither state they work when the bearer is removed from game play as a casualty. Phylactery works AFTER the model has made its RP roll, thus it's use occurs after the model is reanimated/alive.

Nowhere in the ResOrb rules does it mention its effect continues after the bearer has been removed from game play. It just states the bearer and the unit he is with benefit from it. Since a model removed from game play as a causality doesn't exists in the W40k universe anymore how do you justify wargear being used after the model has been removed? From the rules

BRB, page 24,REMOVE CASUALTIES wrote:
...Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one moel is immediately removed from the table as a casualty....

Casualties are not necessarily dead - they may be merely knocked unconscious, too injured to carry on fighting or incapacitated in other some way. In any case, they are no longer fit to participate in the battle.

There. The rules specifically states a model removed as a causality no longer participates in the battle, this includes his wargear.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Further, if you insist the ResOrb continues to functoin when the bearer is remove from game play when does it no longer function? Until the RP roll fails? Remember, the bearer is removed from the game prior to any RP rolls. Nothing about the model, from the game's point of view, works. The bearer can't shoot, the bearer can't use wargear, the bearer is not part of the unit.

If you are making Reanimation Protocol rolls for the bearer of a Resurrection Orb (and his unit), they pass on a 4+. If you are making Reanimation Protocol rolls and there isn't a bearer of a Resurrection Orb (and his unit), then they pass on a 5+.

And nothing in the that rule states the affect of the ResOrb continues after the bearer has been removed. If the bearer is removed, there is no ResOrb. Again, the ResOrb rule is stated in a similar way as the previous version, yet there was no debate on when its affect where checked. For the ResOrb to function under the rules of page 24, it functions as the previous version: an unit-type affect that is "checked" prior to the model being removed from game play. For the ResOrb to function AFTER the bearer is removed from the game as a casualty, the rules would have to provide an exemption to page 24; there is no such exemption defined.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:If the bearer is not part of the unit and its wargear no longer is effective, how does the ResOrb function? Occman's Razor: the ResOrb functions much like it did in the previous codex, meaning the check for the affect of the Orb happens prior to being removed from play. Otherwise, you have to introduce new rules allowing wargear to function after the model has been removed from the game.

See above. The rule works without your assumption.

Just stating "they work" without providing any proof is meaningless. As I've shown, Phylactery is used after the model is reanimated and the ResOrb doesn't state its affect continues long after the bearer is removed from game play.

Phylactery triggers BEFORE the model is placed on the table. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Only a troll would quote a rule that explicitly states "the BEARER and his unit benefit" and then state that the bearer can't use it because he is not on the table when the roll is made.

Don't feed the trolls people.

Res orb works and nothing 1 troll says will change that.

Ah, so youre now redefining what "removed as a casualty" and "returned to play" means, such that models now have an intermediate state BEFORE they are returned?

Moving goal posts much.

Phylactery works BEFORE THE MODEL IS IN PLAY. It specifically states so. The model is still just a marker, it has still been removed as a casualty and it is NOT yet "in play"

Your argument is bunk, and you know it.

First off, wtf. Is this TheGreatAvatar dude for real? The orb's rules are "The bearer of the resurrection orb (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocals rolls on a 4+.". How the hell can the bearer ever use it unless he is down? Please think about this, think about this realllllll hard. Don't use the Edition Rulebook, GW has already stated a myriad of times that codex rules are to be followed first and fore most. I don't know a single person or have seen a single battle report where a necron unit can't use the res orb until the bearer fails to come back. If the bearer is down, he can use it and since he is still part of the unit until his fake death = a real death, so can the unit. Why are you the only person who seems to raising fuss about this?

BarBoBot wrote:Phylactery triggers BEFORE the model is placed on the table. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

But the model does exist. It is in play. This is like some of the wargear/behavior of other models held in reserve.Although they are off the table they are still considered as being in the game.

Only a troll would quote a rule that explicitly states "the BEARER and his unit benefit" and then state that the bearer can't use it because he is not on the table when the roll is made.

If the bearer has been removed from the game what unit does it belong to? What wargear can be used after the model has been removed from the game?


Also, I never said the bearer wasn't affected by the Orb. At least read my posts before calling me a troll....

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

BarBoBot wrote:Phylactery triggers BEFORE the model is placed on the table. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

But the model does exist. It is in play. This is like some of the wargear/behavior of other models held in reserve.Although they are off the table they are still considered as being in the game.

No, the model was removed from play as a casualty and a marker was put in it's place. Unless I'm missing something.

TGA - "But the model does exist. It is in play. This is like some of the wargear/behavior of other models held in reserve.Although they are off the table they are still considered as being in the game. "

No, it does not exist. It is brought back WITH D3 wounds, meaning BEFORE it is in play you roll the D3.

Stop ignoring and simply making up new ideas: your default concept is flawed.

Asserting that the Phylactery rules prove that wargear works when removed from play is wrong. The Phylactery rules only trigger when a model successfully passes a RP roll and is returned to play.

The 'returned to play' part in the Phylactery rules is in reference to the RP roll. You do not roll the d3 until the RP roll is passed, at which point the model is returned to play. In that respect TGA is right.

TGA: You're wrong when you posted that the RP check is made when a model is removed as a casualty. RP rolls are made at the end of the phase. The RP rules are very explicit on this point. Obviously though, the only way to know if you gain the benefit of a Res Orb is by checking to see if there is a model in the unit that bears the Orb when you are about roll for RP. There is no more Res Orb range checking for when casualties occur.

Nos: Unless a piece of wargear explicitly allows it, it does not function when it's removed from play. There is a very clear delineation between models between models/units in play and models/units out of play.

-Yad

Your wrong on the first part.

Phylactery: " A model with a phylactery that passes his first reanimation protocols roll returns to play with d3 wounds"

It doesnt enter play THEN get d3 wounds, it RETURNS to play with d3 wounds, meaning the d3 roll is made BEFORE it returns to play.

You are also wrong on your second part.

Res orb DOES explicitly state that it works on the bearer, and that would only happen if the bearer is off the table and attempting his RP roll.

How does the bearer benefit from res orb (as is explicitly stated in the rule) if he cant use the res orb when he is off the table and attempting a RP roll?

Yad - apparently like TGA you havent bothered to read the Phylactery rule, or have a different idea of what "returned to play with D3 wounds" means than parsiign it in English would tell you

What it ACTUALLY means is that, when you return the model to play (so, before this it is still in the "removed" - by definition - "from play" state) it has D3 wounds - meaning the phylactery MUST have worked before the model is returned to play

You do not roll after returning the model, as that is breaking the rule.

So the phylactery works while off table, because it EXPLICITLY states it does.

You can disagree, but you have no basis in English to read it any other way, meaning your disagreement has no basis in rules

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yad - apparently like TGA you havent bothered to read the Phylactery rule, or have a different idea of what "returned to play with D3 wounds" means than parsiign it in English would tell you

What it ACTUALLY means is that, when you return the model to play (so, before this it is still in the "removed" - by definition - "from play" state) it has D3 wounds - meaning the phylactery MUST have worked before the model is returned to play

You do not roll after returning the model, as that is breaking the rule.

So the phylactery works while off table, because it EXPLICITLY states it does.

You can disagree, but you have no basis in English to read it any other way, meaning your disagreement has no basis in rules

Wrong. Arguing with you Nos is like trying to squeeze blood form a stone. If you want to play that wargear works even when removed from the table, have at it. Thinking that you must roll for the phylactery before the RP roll is purely an invention on your part and is not enforceable by the rules.

-Yad

Well, when you make up an argument that doesnt exist then yes, it will be "difficult" for you to argue against it.

Sigh

My argument is that, AFTER you make the RP roll but BEFORE you return the model to play, you MUST roll the phylactery - because that is how the rule reads

The EL model is returned to play WITH D3 wounds, not WILL HAVE D3 wounds.

You are still entirely utterly 100% wrong

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - "But the model does exist. It is in play. This is like some of the wargear/behavior of other models held in reserve.Although they are off the table they are still considered as being in the game. "

No, it does not exist. It is brought back WITH D3 wounds, meaning BEFORE it is in play you roll the D3.

Stop ignoring and simply making up new ideas: your default concept is flawed.

What part of AFTER the RP roll is made the model is part of the game. THEN you roll for D3 wounds. The model has returned to the game and thus can use wargear, i.e. Phylactery. So, the wargear to potentially gain additional wounds is used after the model is reanimated/returned to the game.

This is in stark contrast to using the ResOrb once the bearer has been pulled from the table.

It all boils down to just a few scenario:

Scenario A:
1) ResOrb bearer is with a unit of fifteen Warriors.
2) During the opponent's shooting phase the four more Warriors are removed as casualties and four markers are placed next to the unit.
Question A: At the end of the shooting phase, what is the RP roll needed by the four RP markers?

Question A - Answer
This is the simple. The RP roll needed for the markers is 4+.

Scenario B:
1) ResOrb bearer is with a unit of fifteen Warriors.
2) During the opponent's shooting phase the bearer is removed from game play as a casualty and an EL marker replaces the bearer.
3) Later in the phase four more Warriors are removed as casualties and four markers are placed next to the unit.
Question B: At the end of the shooting phase, what is the RP roll needed by the EL marker? What is the RP roll needed by the four RP markers?

Question B - Answer
This is a bit more complicated. The RP roll needed for the EL markers is 4+. The RP roll needed for the four RP markers is 5+ since there is no ResOrb with the unit. The bearer has been removed from game play and as such is no longer part of the unit thus the unit does not benefit from the Orb.


Scenario C:
1) ResOrb bearer is with a unit of fifteen Warriors.
2) During the opponent's shooting phase the four more Warriors are removed as casualties and four markers are placed next to the unit.
2) Later in the phase the bearer is removed from game play as a casualty and an EL marker replaces the bearer.
3) Later in the phase three more Warriors are removed as casualties and four markers are placed next to the unit.

Question C: At the end of the shooting phase, what is the RP roll needed by the EL marker? What is the RP roll needed by the four RP markers? What is the RP roll needed by the three RP markers added AFTER the bearer was removed?

Question C - Answer
This is the most complicated. The RP roll needed for the EL markers is 4+. The RP roll needed for the four RP markers is 4+ since the ResOrb was with the unit when the models were removed. The RP roll needed for the three markers is 5+. The first four Warriors were removed when the Orb was with the unit thus benefit from its affect. The ResOrb was not with the unit when the last three Warriors were removed as casualties thus do not benefit from its affect.

If the check for the ResOrb is made at the time of the RP roll then no model, not even the removed bearer, would benefit from the Orb if the bearer was removed since wargear doesn't function once a model has been removed from game play. Again, the simplest approach is the ResOrb functions similar to how it did in the previous codex.

The is the rule from the previous codex:

Codex: Necron, 2002, page 15 wrote:
The Necron Lord is able to augment the self-repair systems of the Necrons within 6" of him. All Necron units with a model within 6" (including the Lord himself) may attemtp "We'll Be Back" rolls even if they were damaged by weaponry that causes instant death or close combat weapons that allow no Armour save.

And the new rule:

Necron codex, 2011, page 82 wrote:
The bearer of the resurrection or (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocol rolls on a 4+.

Now, both rules are very similar in that the effect of the ResOrb affects how the models can be repaired/reanimated. Neither rule details the weargear being effective AFTER bearer has been damaged/removed from play.

It has been determined with the older rule the check for the effectiveness of the Orb when the model is damaged. How is this different from the in term of game play then the new rule?

"What part of AFTER the RP roll is made the model is part of the game. "

Wrong, you are still utterly and totally ignoring the actual rules in favour of an entirely made up interpretation that has no basis in actual English parsing of the sentence

The model IS returned to play WITH D3 wounds. Meaning, BEFORE the model is in play you roll the D3 wounds.

THere is absolutely NO way to "interpret" it the way you are doing, without altering the sentence.. Or, to put it bluntly, you are making gak up.

There is no imaginary zone in-between being in play and not being in play.

The rule states the model is returned to play with d3 wounds.

The d3 roll is made BEFORE the model is in play because it has the d3 wounds by the time it returns to play.

There is no purgatory zone where a model that has passed it's RP goes. It goes from not being in play to being returned to play. When it is returned to play it already has d3 wounds, therefore the phylactery triggered while the model was not in play.