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nosferatu1001 wrote:Yep, previously it was a matter of timing, and worked while off table for the bearer AND any model removed prior to the lords removal, contrary to TGAs assertions that wargear never worked while off table....

Actually, no.

The previous FAQ was quite clear: the check for whether a model was affected by the ResOrb effect was made at the point the model was damaged. If the model was was in range of the ResOrb at this time it benefited from it. If the model was not in range of the ResOrb it didn't benefit. The benefit was being able to get a WBB roll when otherwise not. Since a Lord with an Orb was, by definition, always in range of the Orb, he always got his WBB roll.

If the ResOrb wasn't on the table no model benefited from it. This is different than the ruling published for the updated ResOrb. A unit with a ResOrb at the beginning of a phase will always get its RP roll regardless of when the bearer is removed.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yep, previously it was a matter of timing, and worked while off table for the bearer AND any model removed prior to the lords removal, contrary to TGAs assertions that wargear never worked while off table....

Actually, no.

The previous FAQ was quite clear: the check for whether a model was affected by the ResOrb effect was made at the point the model was damaged. If the model was was in range of the ResOrb at this time it benefited from it. If the model was not in range of the ResOrb it didn't benefit. The benefit was being able to get a WBB roll when otherwise not. Since a Lord with an Orb was, by definition, always in range of the Orb, he always got his WBB roll.

If the ResOrb wasn't on the table no model benefited from it. This is different than the ruling published for the updated ResOrb. A unit with a ResOrb at the beginning of a phase will always get its RP roll regardless of when the bearer is removed.

The previous FAQ was this;

Q. When is the range of the resurrection orb
checked? At the time the Necron becomes
damaged or at the start of the turn when WBB is
rolled for?
A. Check range when a Necron becomes
damaged. If at least one (undamaged) model in
the unit is within 6" of a resurrection orb at that
point, leave the damaged Necron on the board.
Otherwise, immediately remove it from the table
as a casualty.

Now it went this way.
A Necron Lord had a res orb.
He is not attached to a unit.
He was damaged by a close combat weapon that allowed no armor save.
Now we check according to the first sentence at the time he is damaged.
No undamaged model in the unit is within range of the res orb, because the only model in the unit is the Lord with the orb and he is damaged.
But the rule from the codex allowed his to roll for WBB because he was equipped with the orb.

So he was able to benefit from a piece of wargear that was off the table.

TGA - and again you dont seem to know the rules correctly

Time has it SPOT ON - the only way the previous res orb worked for a solo lord (a common way to run him in 4th, for example, in the midst of 3 20 man warrior units so he couldnt be shot) was off the table.

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - and again you dont seem to know the rules correctly

Time has it SPOT ON - the only way the previous res orb worked for a solo lord (a common way to run him in 4th, for example, in the midst of 3 20 man warrior units so he couldnt be shot) was off the table.

Again, you're ignoring the fundamental concept of the rule: check the range when the model is damaged, also, the Lord was always treated as a one-off in terms of WBB and ResOrb.

If the ResOrb wasn't on the table, nothing benefited from it. A Lord with and Orb was, by definition, always in range of it affect, thus always benefited from it. When the model was damaged it benefited from the THEN not during WBB (again, the first sentence of the FAQ was clear about this). Thus if a Lord when down in the middle CC, the models around him no longer benefited from the Orb.

This has changed in the codex and clarified in the FAQ. Now, if the ResOrb is with the unit at the start of the phase, ALL models benefit from the ResOrb for the duration of the phase regardless of the bearer being removed. Thus, even though the ResOrb has been removed from the game it still can effect the rest of the unit, i. e., wargear can be used even if removed from the table. This is different than what happened the previous codex.

"Check range when a Necron becomes
damaged. If at least one (undamaged) model in
the unit is within 6" of a resurrection orb at that
point, leave the damaged Necron on the board. "

This says youre wrong, shocking I know. If the lord was by himself there are NO undamaged necrons in the unit (as the lord is damaged) - soyou shoud have removed the model. You then go back to the codex, and find the lord always gets the benefit of it, even if he is dead

So wargear worked while off the table, and has done since what, 2002?

Finally - please dont respond to this any further. You were wrong, just accept it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Check range when a Necron becomes
damaged. If at least one (undamaged) model in
the unit is within 6" of a resurrection orb at that
point, leave the damaged Necron on the board. "

This says youre wrong, shocking I know. If the lord was by himself there are NO undamaged necrons in the unit (as the lord is damaged) - soyou shoud have removed the model. You then go back to the codex, and find the lord always gets the benefit of it, even if he is dead

So wargear worked while off the table, and has done since what, 2002?

Finally - please dont respond to this any further. You were wrong, just accept it.

Sigh, the mighty nos has spoken.

So your claim that the res orb worked only when on the table is contradicted directly by the FAQ and the Codex, yet you would still claim differently?

Interesting.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So your claim that the res orb worked only when on the table is contradicted directly by the FAQ and the Codex, yet you would still claim differently?

Interesting.

Wargear does not work when removed from play. The Necron FAQ provides an exception to this specific piece of wargear for this particular army. Trying to draw a broad generalization from this would not be supported in my opinion. The answer to the FAQ question would need to say something to that effect.

-Yad

The FAQ is doing nothing more than clarifying the obvious rule of the orb. There is other wargear that also is used when the model is not in play, such as phylactery.

In general, wargear can't be used when it's not on the table, but that doesn't prevent wargear that is intended to work when not on the table from doing so. (which is more or less what tga was insisting)

Nemesor Dave wrote:I suppose this still leaves in doubt JAWS allowing or not EL, or is there consensus now that EL and RP work vs JAWS?

Happyjew wrote:IIRC, RP/EL only work when removed as a casualty. since JotWW do not remove models as a casualty, they would not get the roll.

AFAIK, St Celestine can come back from Jaws. GW essentially says Remove from Play = Remove from play as a casualty.
While not everyone accepts this as precendent, some others do accept that if her return to play ability works then RP does as well.
To each group their own interpretation.

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:So your claim that the res orb worked only when on the table is contradicted directly by the FAQ and the Codex, yet you would still claim differently?

Interesting.

Wargear does not work when removed from play. The Necron FAQ provides an exception to this specific piece of wargear for this particular army. Trying to draw a broad generalization from this would not be supported in my opinion. The answer to the FAQ question would need to say something to that effect.

-Yad

Well, apart from Phylactery, which does. Given you have to roll the D3 BEFORE THE MODEL IS RETURNED TO PLAY, and all.

You were wrong on this before, and have been wrong since the 3rd ed necron codex was released. SOME wargear works while off the table

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:I suppose this still leaves in doubt JAWS allowing or not EL, or is there consensus now that EL and RP work vs JAWS?

Happyjew wrote:IIRC, RP/EL only work when removed as a casualty. since JotWW do not remove models as a casualty, they would not get the roll.

AFAIK, St Celestine can come back from Jaws. GW essentially says Remove from Play = Remove from play as a casualty.
While not everyone accepts this as precendent, some others do accept that if her return to play ability works then RP does as well.
To each group their own interpretation.

I do not know the actual wording for RP. If it states that it happens when removed from play as a casualty, then their is a precedent. If however it says, that it happens upon losing your last wound, then they would not be able to come back.

RP is removed as a casualty

St Celestine does not set a precedent, as it answers a VERY specific question about Celestine only

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Well, apart from Phylactery, which does. Given you have to roll the D3 BEFORE THE MODEL IS RETURNED TO PLAY, and all.

Phylactery is made AFTER the RP roll has been made thus the model is now part of the game prior to the Phylactery roll.

You were wrong on this before, and have been wrong since the 3rd ed necron codex was released. SOME wargear works while off the table

I guess you hope if you say it enough time times it'll become true.

None of the wargear in the previous Necron codex functioned when a model was damaged (in fact, the WBB rule explicitly stated as such, damaged models were battlefield debris.....)

The updated codex/FAQ now permits the ResOrb to continue to function when the bearer has been removed from game play. This is different then the previous edition when the ResOrb only functioned when on the table (reference the first sentence of the previous FAQ: the checking of the range of the model when the model is damaged).

I'm sure you'll continue to thump your chest and exult how you're right and we're all a bunch of idiots. Knock yourself out. I thought it was just me you do that to but you do it to pretty much anyone who disagrees with you. So it goes.

TGA out.

Sorry, TGA, but stop repeatedly lying. You've been proven wrong about the phylactery at every turn

The model is NOT "returned to play" and you then roll the D3 - it is returned to play WITH D3 wounds, meaning you roll when the model isnt in play.

SHocking that youre still wrong on this, SHOCKING i tell you!

Stop arguing, you have been proven wrong time and time again. The codex for the previous Res Orb says you're wrong, and you STILL Cannot admit it!

Hilarious. Your irrelevancy to actual rules debates increases.

TGA apparently has some daddy issues that need resolving by a trained professional.

Res Orb obviously was made to work even if the model is "out of play". Trying to rules-lawyer just makes you look like
an asshat no one wants to play.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:None of the wargear in the previous Necron codex functioned when a model was damaged (in fact, the WBB rule explicitly stated as such, damaged models were battlefield debris.....)

On this TGA you are incorrect.

Previous edition when a lord was damaged and lost it's last wound to a CC weapon that allowed no armour saves, it did go down as battlefield debris.

However, if it (the lord) was equipped with a res orb, it was allowed to make a WBB roll. (Previous edition Necron Codex, both printings page 13 under 'Necron Lords'.

The res orb, a piece of wargear, functioned even if the lord so equipped was damaged.

@all:

Arguments appear weaker when padded with personal attacks.

That aside, personal attacks, flamebaiting, and flaming are all against our rules. Please desist

Well FAQ is out now and yes you would even if you didn't get the lord back up but just for that phase.