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Okay, so I'm playing a game tomorrow against a BA DoA list. I don't know exactly what will be in the list, but I'm counting on two units of Vanguard Veterans.

Here's the list I'm running tomorrow. I think it's a pretty awful mismatch, as I designed this list to be anti-mechspam and then just started using it as a TAC list. I'm sure you can guess, but I normally try to stay as far away from CC as I can. Any thoughts or suggestions to tweak the list so that it's still very anti-mech, but doesn't get completely eaten by DoA? Or even any tactics to try, or to watch out for? I've never gone up against a DoA list, so any advice would be appreciated.

1x Anrakyr the Traveller
1x Catacomb Command Barge w/ Gauss Cannon
... points = 245

1x Harbinger of Destruction w/ Eldritch Lance & Solar Pulse
1x Harbinger of Destruction w/ Eldritch Lance
6x Immortals w/ Tesla
... points = 192

1x Harbinger of Destruction w/ Eldritch Lance & Solar Pulse
1x Harbinger of Destruction w/ Eldritch Lance
6x Immortals w/ Tesla
... points = 192

2x Harbinger of Destruction w/ Eldritch Lance
1x Overlord w/ Warscythe & Mindshackle Scarabs
5x Pyrrhian Eternals w/ Tesla
... points = 270

2x Destroyers
3x Heavy Destroyers
... points = 260

2x Destroyers
3x Heavy Destroyers
... points = 260

1x Harbinger of Despair w/ Abyssal Staff & Veil of Darkness
5x Deathmarks
... points = 155

1x Harbinger of Despair w/ Abyssal Staff & Veil of Darkness
5x Deathmarks
... points = 155

1x Annihilation Barge w/ Gauss Cannon
... points = 90

1x Annihilation Barge w/ Gauss Cannon
... points = 90

1x Annihilation Barge w/ Gauss Cannon
... points = 90

... points total = 1999

i see that you have two crypteks with solar pulses and only one hq. unless i missed something (which is possible cuz im tired) this list is illegal without another overlord or by droping a solar pulse.

also i haven't got my codex with me but if the character doesn't come with a warscythe and isnt trazen the infinite, then in my opinion should not be in a barge, once again im tired and i could be wrong about the wargear on the character your using.


whoops my bad I skimmed right over the second overlord. this kinda makes my post pretty invalid.

Yeah, there's an Overlord in with the unit of Pyrrhian Eternals, and Anrakyr the Traveller does have a Warscythe. And Trazyn can't use his Empathic Obliterator from a Command Barge, but that doesn't matter 'cause he's not in this list.

FNP is going to be a pain. I think DoA is one of our tougher matchups.

I'm not a huge fan of deathmarks, but I know you really like them. I think some Wraiths would help out a lot.

Let us know how it goes!

Yeah, typically FNP is a thorn in my side. That's actually why I started using the Deathmarks in the first place: the Harbingers of Despair ignore FNP. Being able to wipe out 2 sqauds in a flash really helps with regards to concentrating fire on the rest. Sheer volume of shots, and those Str 8 Lanceteks will be key against FNP.

I believe I've got more than enough firepower in this lineup to blast just about any MEQ army back to the stone age, but I'm concerned specifically about being assaulted out of the deepstrike by the Vanguard Veterans. Anyone have any suggestions, other than praying for a 6" scatter away from me? At present, all I've got is Anrakyr to hover nearby and sweep attack against any units that get to assault my guys just to lend some extra support. (hopefully rolling some 6s so that I can remove his power weapons)

I don't know what the end result of that discussion was, regarding VoD and Deathmarks being able to use Hunters to 'mark' additional squads.

If you are allowed to place a Hunters token each time you VoD them, then you should be able wreck a full unit each turn by combining Destroyer, Abyssal, and Deathmark fire; assuming scatter doesn't ruin your day.

If you're not placing extra hunter tokens down, than you have to use those deathmarks very precisely.

FNP is a pain in the ass.

I only play it as one mark from opening deployment, and if they mishap and roll a 'delayed' result, then they are also deployed again when they hit the table the second time. But I don't play as if they can mark a new unit every time they VoD.

I try to pick my targets carefully, and I've always had fantastic luck with my scatter rolls (that is, they don't scatter on deepstrikes -but I dare not fire blast templates anymore as that appears to be the counterbalance to my good deepstriking luck)

However, I'm thinking more and more about swapping out one unit of Deathmarks for 3x Wraiths with 2x Whip Coils. I think that would leave me with 30 points to put elsewhere. Maybe a resorb on the Pyrrhian Eternals?

Well, a pure DoA army has eventually some trouble with MCs. Make use of them. Moreover, difficult terrain is something that a DoA army usually avoids like the pest. Necrons have some ways to generate difficult terrain even if its not in the first place.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, a pure DoA army has eventually some trouble with MCs. Make use of them. Moreover, difficult terrain is something that a DoA army usually avoids like the pest. Necrons have some ways to generate difficult terrain even if its not in the first place.

Damn, got there first

I agree completely with Wustenfux, Necrons have the biggest array of DT enducing abilities, so may aswell use them. Hell combine the DOA's weakness for MC's and add a Ctan shard with Writhing Worldscape and Lord of Fire to make those inevitable melta shots have a chance of back firing.

Also a Ctan Shard should easily go through acouple of squads no problem.

DT is the key not mc. Necron mc don't hit very hard in cc. A large multi charge of 2 squads into warriors/scarabs and a mc will drop the mc from combat resolution.

Tremorstaves + c'tan withering worldscape will wreck doa.

Really? May last game vs. mech BA, I was using Tremorstaves + Writhing Worldscape, and found it to be next to useless. FNP negated all but 2 or 3 wounds delivered from DT tests all game, and the BAs universally having grenades negated them from hitting at I1 when assaulting into terrain.

The MC is nice, but I'd never use it in a regular list as I just found it too slow against any non-DSing list.

I'm thinking about swapping out one unit of Deathmarks and replacing them with:

4x Canoptek Wraiths w/ 2x Whip Coils & 1x Particle Caster

I was thinking that the Wraiths would make a pretty scary counter-charge unit, and their damage output is definitely superior to a C'Tan Shard.

azazel the cat wrote:Really? May last game vs. mech BA, I was using Tremorstaves + Writhing Worldscape, and found it to be next to useless. FNP negated all but 2 or 3 wounds delivered from DT tests all game, and the BAs universally having grenades negated them from hitting at I1 when assaulting into terrain.

The MC is nice, but I'd never use it in a regular list as I just found it too slow against any non-DSing list.

I'm thinking about swapping out one unit of Deathmarks and replacing them with:

4x Canoptek Wraiths w/ 2x Whip Coils & 1x Particle Caster

I was thinking that the Wraiths would make a pretty scary counter-charge unit, and their damage output is definitely superior to a C'Tan Shard.

You can't take Feel no pain saves from failed dangerous Terrain checks. Try to sneak in at least 5 wraiths if you can.

You can't use FNP on Dangerous Terrain? Ah-ha! Shenanigans were afoot in the last game I played (balanced out by my erroneously playing the Annihilation Barges as Fast)

A 5th Wraith is tough. It would be the 3rd Whip Coil, so in order to swap out one unit of Deathmarks and its Cryptek, as well as the 6th Immortal from each of the two Troop units, I still need to find another 20 points.

I guess I could trade a Heavy Destroyer for a regular one in one of the units. That would get me the 20 points I need. But will going from 4 to 5 really make that much difference?

The best way to avoid defeat with Necrons against BA is to have a third player join in playing Tyranids.

It works every time.

azazel the cat wrote:You can't use FNP on Dangerous Terrain? Ah-ha! Shenanigans were afoot in the last game I played (balanced out by my erroneously playing the Annihilation Barges as Fast)

A 5th Wraith is tough. It would be the 3rd Whip Coil, so in order to swap out one unit of Deathmarks and its Cryptek, as well as the 6th Immortal from each of the two Troop units, I still need to find another 20 points.

I guess I could trade a Heavy Destroyer for a regular one in one of the units. That would get me the 20 points I need. But will going from 4 to 5 really make that much difference?

Wraiths will eventually start dying, and once a squad gets too low, their combat effectiveness really starts to diminish. Causing More rends, comes from the more attacks you have, which is why when you start losing them, you start losing a lot of potency. The larger squads help keep that potency around as long as possible.

I think trading a Heavy D for one is your best bet.

azazel the cat wrote:You can't use FNP on Dangerous Terrain? Ah-ha! Shenanigans were afoot in the last game I played (balanced out by my erroneously playing the Annihilation Barges as Fast)

A 5th Wraith is tough. It would be the 3rd Whip Coil, so in order to swap out one unit of Deathmarks and its Cryptek, as well as the 6th Immortal from each of the two Troop units, I still need to find another 20 points.

I guess I could trade a Heavy Destroyer for a regular one in one of the units. That would get me the 20 points I need. But will going from 4 to 5 really make that much difference?

Not only is fnp a no go with dt, but it also denies wound allocation. Dt tests are performed on a model by model basis so if a priest fails a test no other model can take the wound for him. All difficult is dangerous, so a ctan and tremorstave will cause a 1/3 chance per turn of priests failing a dt test.

I am not sold on wraiths v doa. Basic assaultt marines are very good at dumping loads of nonpower weapon wounds on t4 models.

With all of the HoD Crypteks you are running, you should consider a few Gazes of Flame. Defensive grenades are a great equalizer against most assault armies, and they are cheap.

If you don't like wraiths, a big blob of 15-20 warriors with a Gaze of Flame Cryptek and either a Storm Cryptek or a Scythe/Mindshackle Lord can be pretty fierce. I've done the mathhammer, and they won't be blowing a squad of 10 Assault Marines out of the water, but they can cripple basically anything in rapid fire range, and will inflict enough wounds in an assault to not get swept.

The Storm Cryptek has the added advantage of lightning bolting deep strikers who get too close. I think it's an underrated option.

Indeed, against a DT test the models just have an invulnerable save if failed.

wuestenfux wrote:Indeed, against a DT test the models just have an invulnerable save if failed.

How's that?

...

Anyways.

Well, had the game tonight. My opponent actually changed his army and didn't play DoA. Instead it was a very assaulty mechspam army. 2x Baals, (hehehe) 2x Razorbacks and 3x Rhinos. All fully loaded with assault marines, one rhino with DC, and 2x Dev squads.

We roll for scenario, and we're playing for kill points with Spearhead deployment. I lose the initiative roll (which is just fine). My table quarter has two 4-storey buildings, so that's where two of my troops units are going. The third is hanging out in a forest. I wish I had those wraiths to put into the lobby of a building.

The first turn was a wash. The universe insisted that I do not roll to hit anything, no matter the circumstances. I wreck a single Rhino, but my Deathmarks wipe out his Dev sqauds.

The second turn isn't much better.

The third turn I turn his army into a parking lot of wreckage, now that the universe has permitted me to roll better than a 2 sometimes.

Fourth turn I'm just trying to keep my troops out of reach, but letting my opponent gain so much ground in those first two turns has hurt me.

Fifth turn, the game is tied at 11 kill points apiece, and I have a full squad of Destroyers and a squad with 2x Lanceteks and 2x Immortals left, all with their gun sights on one unit of 2x marines that have gone to ground. I should be able to win this.

The Lanceteks and Immortals choke, missing all four shots completely. Somehow.

And then the Destroyer squad manages two hits, both saved by cover.

The game ends in a draw, 11-11.

Considering the way the game started, I'm okay with that draw. If I'd had some Wraiths, things may have been slightly more favourable to me. However, I realized in the middle of the game that I could have just VoD'd my Deathmarks off to a corner of the board and sat there for the last two game turns, and then I would have probably won by a point. In a tournament, I would totally pull a move like that. But this is a friendly game, and I want to crush my enemies in battle, to see my enemies driven before me, and to hear the lamentations of the women.

And thus, a draw.

Is it not the case that you can only attached a single member of the royal court to a unit? I see that Azazel has multiple HoDest attached to units, but since no one has pointed it out I guess I just misunderstand how the court works. Could someone explain please?

dnanoodle wrote:Is it not the case that you can only attached a single member of the royal court to a unit? I see that Azazel has multiple HoDest attached to units, but since no one has pointed it out I guess I just misunderstand how the court works. Could someone explain please?

As of right now, the rules say that you can have one member from "the" court join a squad. Since you can take 2 courts, people are going with one member from each court. I personally expect this to be changed in the FAQ, but as of right now, RAW you can.


Also, Azazel, what was your final list? Dice failings happen, I Imagine you would have smoked him if the first few turns weren't so bad! Are you considering adding a Unit of Wraiths now?

azazel the cat wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Indeed, against a DT test the models just have an invulnerable save if failed.

How's that?

...

Here is the correct way to do dangerous terrain tests.

If an entire squad has to make a dangerous terrain test point at 1 model and roll 1 die for that specific model, if the model fails the test it takes a wound with no cover save, no armor save, and no FNP and no other model can take the wound for the model that failed the test. Then move on to the next model and repeat the process. The only save possible is an invulnerable save, but only multiple would characters and terminators have an invulnerable in the BA codex. If a priest, sergeant, or special weapon fails the test that specific model takes the wound and dies unless it's in terminator armor. Bottom line is if it's a single wound model with no invulnerable save it dies.

In the case of withering worldscape and jump infantry here is how the combination works. All difficult terrain is dangerous to jump infantry, so if they get tremorstaved they have to take dangerous terrain tests with or without a C'tan on the battlefield. If withering worldscape is also on the battle field it says if the terrain is already dangerous (which it is to jump infantry) then dangerous terrain tests are failed on a 1 or 2.

schadenfreude wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Indeed, against a DT test the models just have an invulnerable save if failed.

How's that?

...

Here is the correct way to do dangerous terrain tests.

If an entire squad has to make a dangerous terrain test point at 1 model and roll 1 die for that specific model, if the model fails the test it takes a wound with no cover save, no armor save, and no FNP and no other model can take the wound for the model that failed the test. Then move on to the next model and repeat the process. The only save possible is an invulnerable save, but only multiple would characters and terminators have an invulnerable in the BA codex. If a priest, sergeant, or special weapon fails the test that specific model takes the wound and dies unless it's in terminator armor. Bottom line is if it's a single wound model with no invulnerable save it dies.

In the case of withering worldscape and jump infantry here is how the combination works. All difficult terrain is dangerous to jump infantry, so if they get tremorstaved they have to take dangerous terrain tests with or without a C'tan on the battlefield. If withering worldscape is also on the battle field it says if the terrain is already dangerous (which it is to jump infantry) then dangerous terrain tests are failed on a 1 or 2.

Thanks for clarification. Invulnerable saves are the only saves that work here. But the models having such a save is very limited in a DoA army.

Sasori wrote:Also, Azazel, what was your final list? Dice failings happen, I Imagine you would have smoked him if the first few turns weren't so bad! Are you considering adding a Unit of Wraiths now?

Yeah, that was my final list. That's the army that I've been using lately, and it's definitely got some punch, so long as I can keep some distance between my gunline and any combat marines. The first turn that I rolled average rolls tore his army apart. That list is most definitely a very mobile glass cannon army.

And I am seriously thinking about putting in a single squad of wraiths. Even with my rolling 1s almost 30% of the time in the first two turns, a single squad of wraiths hidden in the lobby of a CoD building would have turned an 11-11 draw into a 13-9 victory.

schadenfreude wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Indeed, against a DT test the models just have an invulnerable save if failed.

How's that?

...

Here is the correct way to do dangerous terrain tests.

If an entire squad has to make a dangerous terrain test point at 1 model and roll 1 die for that specific model, if the model fails the test it takes a wound with no cover save, no armor save, and no FNP and no other model can take the wound for the model that failed the test. Then move on to the next model and repeat the process. The only save possible is an invulnerable save, but only multiple would characters and terminators have an invulnerable in the BA codex. If a priest, sergeant, or special weapon fails the test that specific model takes the wound and dies unless it's in terminator armor. Bottom line is if it's a single wound model with no invulnerable save it dies.

In the case of withering worldscape and jump infantry here is how the combination works. All difficult terrain is dangerous to jump infantry, so if they get tremorstaved they have to take dangerous terrain tests with or without a C'tan on the battlefield. If withering worldscape is also on the battle field it says if the terrain is already dangerous (which it is to jump infantry) then dangerous terrain tests are failed on a 1 or 2.

Ah, I see what you mean. Sorry, I thought you were trying to tell me that everyone gets an invulnerable save there, and so I interpreted that to mean that one of us was crazy and I was praying that it was you.

azazel the cat wrote:

Sasori wrote:Also, Azazel, what was your final list? Dice failings happen, I Imagine you would have smoked him if the first few turns weren't so bad! Are you considering adding a Unit of Wraiths now?

Yeah, that was my final list. That's the army that I've been using lately, and it's definitely got some punch, so long as I can keep some distance between my gunline and any combat marines. The first turn that I rolled average rolls tore his army apart. That list is most definitely a very mobile glass cannon army.

And I am seriously thinking about putting in a single squad of wraiths. Even with my rolling 1s almost 30% of the time in the first two turns, a single squad of wraiths hidden in the lobby of a CoD building would have turned an 11-11 draw into a 13-9 victory.

schadenfreude wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Indeed, against a DT test the models just have an invulnerable save if failed.

How's that?

...

Here is the correct way to do dangerous terrain tests.

If an entire squad has to make a dangerous terrain test point at 1 model and roll 1 die for that specific model, if the model fails the test it takes a wound with no cover save, no armor save, and no FNP and no other model can take the wound for the model that failed the test. Then move on to the next model and repeat the process. The only save possible is an invulnerable save, but only multiple would characters and terminators have an invulnerable in the BA codex. If a priest, sergeant, or special weapon fails the test that specific model takes the wound and dies unless it's in terminator armor. Bottom line is if it's a single wound model with no invulnerable save it dies.

In the case of withering worldscape and jump infantry here is how the combination works. All difficult terrain is dangerous to jump infantry, so if they get tremorstaved they have to take dangerous terrain tests with or without a C'tan on the battlefield. If withering worldscape is also on the battle field it says if the terrain is already dangerous (which it is to jump infantry) then dangerous terrain tests are failed on a 1 or 2.

Ah, I see what you mean. Sorry, I thought you were trying to tell me that everyone gets an invulnerable save there, and so I interpreted that to mean that one of us was crazy and I was praying that it was you.

Praying only helps when your models have a built-in invulnerable save and they pass it.

Nagashek wrote:The best way to avoid defeat with Necrons against BA is to have a third player join in playing Tyranids.

It works every time.

junk wrote:

Nagashek wrote:The best way to avoid defeat with Necrons against BA is to have a third player join in playing Tyranids.

It works every time.

This is not the point. However, pure DoA armies have a hard time vs. MC's, i.e., a Trygon eats half a 10 men Assault squad before they swing back. Necrons have access to some very nice MC's like a C'Tan or two.

Yeah, but a C'tan is exceptionally expensive. So much so that it almost requires building the rest of the army around it. And that would mean building an army specifically go fight DoA. And I don't make counter-armies like that.

So far, I think adding in some Wraiths (even if only 4 with 3x Whip Coils) would make the difference.

I want to crush my enemies in battle, to see my enemies driven before me, and to hear the lamentations of the women.

Awesome.

I think your on the right track with the list. A little counter assault unit to toy with him with and you would have one that game pretty easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Out of curiosity, did the Pyrrhians and Overlord get a chance to mix it up with any assault squads and if so how did they do?

azazel the cat wrote:Yeah, but a C'tan is exceptionally expensive. So much so that it almost requires building the rest of the army around it. And that would mean building an army specifically go fight DoA. And I don't make counter-armies like that.

I think Writhing Worldscape is a great thing to have in any army, personally. The beastly MC is just icing on the cake.