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It never ceases to amaze me just how inefective they are at killing their target. personally I'd make them wound on a 3+ and pinning tests with -1 Ld. What would you change?

They're among the only weapon that has the slightest chances of killing Necron Nightbringers (4th ed. crons at least)... Dependable weapons in my opinion, not overly powerful, just enough to rely on imo. More than worth it for the points cost (Its like 5 points for a guardsmen)

Snipers are horrible at killing soft frail targets, especially ones with low toughness and no helmets

but are beyond godly at kill heavily armored targets, especially giantic ones with zero weak spots

(Im saying they suck at killing Low Toughness models, but somehow are amazing at killing High Toughness ones)

That's because of their fixed roll to wound requirement (strength x) It's balanced, it kindof just flips the odds

They could definitely use some tweaking.

"Sniper: Weapons with Sniper have their S value set equal to the Firer's BS. A Sniper weapon is Rending, and each unsaved wound from a Sniper weapon causes a pinning test."

or having S=(target's L) or (target's L/2)
This simulates scoring hits on vulnerable areas of higher priority targets as leadership usually denotes rank.

Or just being able to allocate the wounds yourself

Vindiare Assassin with Deadshot rule (which allows to allocate wounds) costs 145 points... compare it with Ratling for 10 ppm.

S=Ld/2 would be interesting but not as effective against high T models.

S=BS would be negative of Sniper Rifle - potent against low T models, not so against MC and Heavy Troops, but quite balanced. Mentioned Vindicare Assassin would have S8 shots O.o

Two possible solutions:
1) against T<4 it works like S 4 weapon, and T=>4 it gives 50% to wound. Against vehicles it'd penetrate 4+d6+rending

2) Most efficiency reducing factor is armour. Sniper Rifle with its' AP6 barely bypass armour. Yeah, designers made it Rending, however it works unlikely... Sniper Rifles are made good against hard targets (high T) but are stopped by armour, anyway?
Maybe armour save reduction (-2) would be better, thus
3+ -> 5+, 4+ -> 6+ and so on.

Sniper weapons need as good or better AP than the standard rifle for the force they are from to feel right.

In the case of the Tau, instead of Sniper they ended up with a Strength 6 AP 3 gun which is better in most circumstances than the wound on 4+ and AP 6 that most forces field for the same duty.

Compared to Imperial Lasgun S3 AP-, Sniper Rifle is still better

I can remember that longlas patterns are powered by hot shots cells, which in case of Storm Troopers grant AP3 penetration to their lasguns. On the other side it would make Rending rule in weapons profile irrevelant factor.

Appart from being heavy and +5pts...

If a majority of these changes were made their would be no point in fielding Tactical Marines in SM lists anymore...a cheaper squad of scouts would have better killing power, a better save (with cloaks) and be cheaper...

I like the Sniper rule, I didn't at first, but after working on my own codex I realized why Snipers are good, and why they are heavy.
Against lower point models they do less, but most lower point models are in large units, which means it makes sense that it should be harder to score a critical hit, whilst higher point models are usually in smaller units, thus easier to score critical hits with said weapons. A troops of Snipers, untrained, up the chance of one of their 4+ to wound shots becoming rending, meaning no armor save. That makes them better than most, if not all, cheap guns in the game for doing what Snipers should be used to do. Pick off high point models in small units. If you want to deal with smaller point units, use machine guns.
The better the sniper, the more additional rules they seem to have written for them to make up for the lack of rules on the basic Sniper rifle.
The Eldar troop wounding on a 2+ or 3+ (I forget at the moment.)
The Vindicare assassin as mentioned earlier, and I am sure other examples can be given. It's something I found made sense when I was playtesting and trying to discern how much what should cost and why it should cost that with my own codex, and I have to completely agree with the rule as it stands.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Eldar guys are Rangers I believe

Runna, I think that Eldar do NOT wound on a 3+, but when upgraded to pathfinders, which go AP1 on a 5+ (rend)

oh yea, I couldn't remember what it was, but I knew it made them a better sniper unit, I haven't played against them in almost 6 months now.
Sorry for the mistake.

They actuallly work pretty well in the current rules, for what they do. Improving them even slightly messes up the balance.

What about +1 to wound for everypt that the firers BS surpasses 3? So BS 4 would be 3+, BS 5=2+, BS 6= a 6+ reroll, like with BS 6 reroll to hit, and BS 7=5+ reroll...etc?

Or just roll the firer's BS to wound?

That would mean BS 5 needs a 5+ and vindicare would need an 8+

I meant like BS is the strength of the weapon.

ie in the hands of WS 3 a Sniper Weapon's Strength is 3.

So in the hands of the Vindicare (master sniper of all snipers) the weapon's strength is 8 (Yeah, I killed the monolith by firing into it's exhaust port).

Vindicare already has the best anti tank gun in the game anyway

I really don't think snipers need much of a boost, since they are untaken largely because of the meta rather than the weapon's own strangth (pinning and rending aren't as good as they used to be, and they just suck against vehicles). Though I do like the to wound based on BS, and perhaps allowing the player to choose who gets hit on a 6.

Personally my greatest sorrow about the snipers is how they changed the astartes codex away from 5/6 chance to hit. Having ability to pick a target amongst the first line of infantry in a squad would also lessen the sorrow of the change. Example: SM VS IG. Scout firing at a a guard squad with commish, 1 flamer, 1 sergant, formation: blobbish/ loosley two lines of infantry. the sergant and 5 guards are is in the line closest to/facing the scouts. I may not target the flamer beating guard OR the commish if I when I allocate the hit but I may Target any of the 5 guard or the sarge.

Introducing a rule similar to that would also joy me. Something. like 5/6 to hit and a critical lets you allocate it however you like instead of the opponent. Half the. point of the sniper is gone after the nerf. At least its not as bad as the rocket launcher. That one seems to me to might as well say "buy a lottery ticket to see what if you hit what you aim for"

Wouldn't this cause problems when determining if models (especially) characters are in first line or the other?

In the heat of battle it'd be hard to determine who is who among the ranks. 'Officer picking' is also the reason why in modern armies armies, during operations, officers use non-discernible (easily at least) uniforms. Even in fictional wh40k characters would stick to this.

I think, the only thing Sniper Rifle needs, it's little greater anti-infantry potential, i.e. AP 5

alternatively AP dependent on BS & performance (d6)
if scored a hit (calculated along formula 13 - (BS+d6))
skill - possible AP
BS 1 - AP 6
BS 2 - AP 6, AP 5
BS 3 - AP 6, AP 5, AP 4
BS 4 - AP 6, AP 5, AP 4, AP 3
BS 5 - AP 6, AP 5, AP 4, AP 3, AP 2
BS 6+ counts as BS 5, if making re-roll, then AP 6.

Tested! It makes interesting combat situations (and very potent snipers), on the other hand makes much longer resolution of shooting.
Great for custom scenarios at low points, not so for vast, more regular battles.

I really don't think that snipers in current 40k are well-represented... they just don't fit IMO.

I think they work fine,bjust not on BS 3 models.

Squidmanlolz wrote:or having S=(target's L) or (target's L/2)
This simulates scoring hits on vulnerable areas of higher priority targets as leadership usually denotes rank.

This would make them deadly against necrons.

goblet270 wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:or having S=(target's L) or (target's L/2)
This simulates scoring hits on vulnerable areas of higher priority targets as leadership usually denotes rank.

This would make them deadly against necrons.

Then it's a good thing I don't like Necrons

Having its str be based off ld is backwards thinking. The higher the Ld, the LESS likely it would be to do anything - why make it more potent?

Frankly, as I see it the whole point of a sniper is to pin down enemy units & eliminate leadership/priority targets in enemy line units. I feel that is poorly represented in 40K modern.

Now, looking at the proposed ideas....

To wound based on BS of the shooter - ok so that means IG vets, ratlings, wolf scouts, deathmarks all receive quite a boost while SM (incl BA/DA etc) all receive a downgrade comparably (despite staying the same in actuality).

I could live w/ that honestly.

To wound based of 1/2 Ld - first question on this: based on the squad's Ld or the individual shooters Ld? If it's squad based SM scout squad halve Ld 9 it's 4.5 or 5 so if that counts the SM scouts wound T3 on a 2+, T4 on 3+, T5 on a 4+ & T6 on a 5+.

But, wolf scouts would only be S4 unless led by a wolf guard pack leader (who can't even take a sniper rifle, but I digress) so a base squad vs a base squad the wolf scouts will wound T3 on 3+, T4 on a 4+, T5 on a 5+ & T6 on a 6+(or w/ the way I roll, why even bother?). So, apples to apples 5 wolf scouts w/ sniper rifles & a heavy bolter is 92 pts w/ S4 sniper rifles while a 5 man SM scout sniper squad w/ 4 sniper rifles & a heavy bolter is 85 pts & they have S5 sniper rifles & helfire rounds.plus they count as scoring. So the more useful/effective unit is almost a space marine cheaper.

I disagree w/ that because then all of a sudden you'll see probably 3 10 man strong sniper scout squads instead of tactical squads because why take S4 bolters when you can have S5 sniper rifles w/ a 1/6 chance of ignoring armor, plus w/ camo cloaks & infiltrate they can be placed in preferable position to a tac squad for shooting & will be harder to get out once dug in, put em in a bunker & they're better than termies w/ a 2++ unless the weapon ignores cover then unless it's AP4 they STILL have a 4+ save, plus S5 APd6+(potentially)D3= on average 10 on the AP roll.

But that's just my take on that.

My personal idea? Go w/ the S=BS of the shooter + on the roll of a 6 to hit allow the shooter to designate the model targetted before rolling to wound & up the cost to 5 pts for scouts, 8 pts for IG vets & 10 pts for wolf scouts & up ratlings to 12 pts each.

As for other armies, I can't say as I don't really play them.