Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

That'll end the game.

VICTORIA IMPERIALIS

So what did everyone think?

Orkeosaurus wrote:I grip my pistol and shoot Thor with my load, all over his face and chest and down his throat.

::I swallow it all, a look of surprise on my face. I manage to gasp out::

How could you without...warning?

::I then finish, falling all over your feet.::

Fun game. The roles were neat enough, and the servo skulls were kind of interesting. Near the end I was really putting together as many scenarios as I could, to try and divine the possible outcomes, so that's a good sign.

Manchu wrote:So what did everyone think?

I still think we should shoot Demo next, he's acting pretty scummy.

Overall pretty fun. I still stand by my comment to you at the beginning of the game that I thought the Secutor was a bit game breaking in the Imperium's favor.

FOR THE ALLFATHER! HES ALIVE!.

*starts kicking madly*

:: Arctik suddenly lifts his head, and looks around smartly. ::

"No, actually Gornalldrick, I'm not dead. You see, I had a cigarillo-box too - look...

Oh damn...

I must have left it on the dresser."

:: He promptly dies. ::

Great game, Manchu, and well played Thor, you scum-sucking scum! Apologies for the post-shot post/gasp/comment, but it was kind of the decider anyway.

I had no fear in trying to heroically kill Thor myself, because the only other thing that could have happened was me getting shot! That and I was damned worried about the possibility of Gornall being a traitor who had self-wounded along with Stynier on the first night. Better to be a hero!

Thor665 wrote:

Manchu wrote:So what did everyone think?

Overall pretty fun. I still stand by my comment to you at the beginning of the game that I thought the Secutor was a bit game breaking in the Imperium's favor.

Yeah... I don't know about that either. Part of it was extremely bad luck on your guy's part (both a Secutor AND a Tech Priest on Night 1), so it's hard to judge.

Yeah... Arctik, you had me freaking out... I thought for SURE Demogerg was going to take the pistol away and shoot Thor. I should have realized earlier how to argue that if I was guilty, the game was already over.

Thor, what was your strategy to try to eke out a win? I know you were behind the 8-ball early. At least we didn't go with the strategy of me releasing one skull a day. Then you'd have been hosed for sure.

That last bit of drama - the idea that we could not be certain if there was a secutor - was something I enjoyed a lot. Truly, it broke the game a little for Thor... but the special character ideas were good and original. Do you have any plans for improvement on this concept, Manchu?

I think the Secutor provides a nice twist, but I would think about only using that role in games with at least 3 traitors (aka larger games). That way the traitors have a way to mask their attacks etc. However, I still don't know if it would have been such a game changer had a Tech Priest had also gotten caught on the first day. Likewise, I think Stynier could have played it off some and really thrown things for a loop. I'm still fairly new to these games, so I dunno.

Gornall wrote:Thor, what was your strategy to try to eke out a win? I know you were behind the 8-ball early. At least we didn't go with the strategy of me releasing one skull a day. Then you'd have been hosed for sure.

To be honest, once you had killed Stynier you all could have just waited for the deadline and I couldn't have won. My goal was primarily to play for the most kills I saw as possible for me to achieve (3, huzzah me!). I boasted to Stynier and Manchu that such was my goal and both seemed a little uncertain on my chances. But there are certain advantages to knowing you cannot win and to be playing for a goal that everyone else doesn't expect. I knew once the skulls went out I was toast, so I just tried to set up enough logical loops to put me in the best place possible i could to get multiple kills.

Honestly I had planned to kill whoever investigated Demo - since I knew he'd be an easy target to get lynched. But Arctik actually jumped the gun on me and I missed that he had deployed. Still, it worked out okay since I still had a lot of uncertainty to work with. It was hard to have to walk the line with giving Arctik's deployment plan (which I did NOT want used) just enough attention to cover myself but not enough to gve it much credence. I'm sure it was annoying for him since he knew I was ducking him to some degree but was having a hard time proving I was.

I also loved Gornall as the Secutor. Because I really agree with his playstyle because it's similar to mine...as a result I was able to predict him fairly well and manipulate Arctik and Demo into saying and demanding things that I knew Gornall would pick up on as suspicious. I knew as soon as I defended Gornall he would shoot Arctik (it's priceless we also both figured out the perfect defense of Gornall as not a traitor at basically the exact same time though. Like I said, we thought similar.)

What was Arctik's deployment plan?

Arctik_Firangi wrote:That last bit of drama - the idea that we could not be certain if there was a secutor - was something I enjoyed a lot. Truly, it broke the game a little for Thor... but the special character ideas were good and original. Do you have any plans for improvement on this concept, Manchu?

Yes, I would like to sharpen things up for another game after we've all had some down time. Who would be interested?

The laspistol mechanic kind of let me down. I expected there to be much more fighting over it but the rules I wrote didn't encourage that well enough. As I mentioned to Thor in PM (and I must say I was more sure than he was that he could get three kills ), you guys basically ditched the laspistol mechanic for traditional voting once you accepted Gornall as the secutor. Gornall already said as much but it's worth repeating: this game went badly for Chaos from the start. A couple of dead titan crewman and we might have seen a lot more wrestling for the gun. But those who stayed in did such a great job any way. I have to say again how impressed I am.

So takers on a Heretic! Game 2? I was thinking of starting another in a couple of weeks.

Some of the rules from this game need sharpening and I hope you'll share your opinions with me. Although I'd like to carry some of these mechanics over into a game two (and let's not forget, the Imperium is currently up by two points), there will also be new rules. As a little preview, if game 2 happens it will almost certainly be from the perspective of Chaos.

Also, Stynier get in here!

@Arctik: Black Adder jokes are always welcome.

Im down for game 2.

I'm down for game two... but I would like a week or so break. That one day of breaking down every deployment strategy possible was a bit much.

Yeah, it won't be for a while. Have to write rules and all. That took a week last time and this time I want to consider it more carefully with the lessons from this game in mind.

Could you guys critique specific elements?

- having wounds

- servo skulls

- laspistol instead of vote

- wresting away rules

- secutor

- possessed heretic

- whatever other variations I've not listed

Gornall wrote:What was Arctik's deployment plan?

That would have been:

Gornall investigates Thor (Thor didn't want this because he'd have to take a wound to shut you up)
One/both of the techpriests and/or Demogerg investigates Mekboy/Lord-Loss
I get shot to prove Demogerg's innocence.

There was an alternate two-skulls-then-one plan... it involved Gornall+Demo investigating, me being shot, then Gornall investigating someone else if required.

If there is a game 2, would I be able to join in? I take it as it's OK to post in here since the game has been finished.

Yeah, I think the problem with those plans was if we actually had 2 traitors. That was my big thing, I wanted us to play "prevent" defense in case we actually had two traitors. Against only one, we would have had to try to lose it.

I like the wound mechanic. I think the pistol mechanic needs some more clarification as we had several confusing moments. Servo skulls are good, but I think the "last one who votes deploys it" mechanic is a little too cumbersome, IMO. Maybe have someone declare "I'm deploying against so and so" and then have people vote on it.

Arheiner wrote:If there is a game 2, would I be able to join in? I take it as it's OK to post in here since the game has been finished.

You certainly may post here now and I will keep you in mind when I PM people about game 2.

Manchu wrote:Yeah, it won't be for a while. Have to write rules and all. That took a week last time and this time I want to consider it more carefully with the lessons from this game in mind.

Could you guys critique specific elements?

- having wounds

I liked. It made for some interesting actions possible for the heretics.

- servo skulls

I liked the concept. However, trying to manage the person the servo skull was going to investigate and the person who receives the investigation was a little tricky.

- laspistol instead of vote

- wresting away rules

This one I'm kind of ambivalent about. It didn't seem to cause many problems in this game, but what if Gornall was a heretic near the end? He could have shot someone dead before they had a chance to respond. It might put a little too much emphasis on getting to the thread fast. I mean, you can have heretic one grab it, heretic two post, and heretic one shoot someone. Or heretic one wrest, heretic two wrest, heretic one post, and heretic two shoot. In either case, the day can be over in a minute.

- secutor

Pretty powerful role. A good one, although maybe too powerful to be in the same game with only two enemies.

- possessed heretic

Interesting. It kept people on their toes, with the possibility that there were two heretics left.

- whatever other variations I've not listed

One thing that was a slightly annoying was the heretics being labeled as "heretic tech-priests", since it made the term "tech-priest" sort of ambiguous (it could theoretically mean one of two roles). The game ending in three days was a little sudden at first, but when I got used to it I started to like it more than the three week time limit. After the first week the interest kind of peters out, and it might still be another two weeks of waiting around before people feel compelled to do something.


Have you considered switching the mechanics for the killing and the deployment of servo skulls? I.e. Take servo skull. Wrest away servo skull from Orkeo. Defend Orkeo. Deploy servo skull against Valhallan.

Then have a regular voting mechanism in place for the kills.

So Gornall and Orkeo liked wounds, didn't think laspistol worked well, and think servo skull should be refined (I really like both suggestions, too).

In my opinion, laspistol was supposed to change play the most. Servo skulls were supposed to be a balancing mechanism. The skulls became a bit too much of a net, I thought, and I probably won't use them again unless somebody works out a killer system for them.

As to 3 day limits, something short like this will remain for sure although I'm open to the specific time period. The three weeks is a little too much given that we're all regulars.

I think a week is a better choice. Three weeks is way too long, but 3 days seemed to be rushing it. I think the skulls were a very valuable part of the gameplay, as they provided more discussion than anything else. I wouldn't axe them completely.

I'm also down for game 2. I'm sorry that I was not as involved. I have some papers due that crept up on me.

I will say that I had thor pegged from the start. He was being too talkative.

I thought you participated well, as usual, Val. There is no exaggerating how good a group this was. I was actually sad to see each person go because everyone makes such good contributions. It was a real pity to lose Stynier first, most especially for Thor.

My inital participation was crucial. Once we got stynier out, it was somewhat a done deal. It was also poor luck on their part to hit the secutor first round.

I don't know why stynier didn't claim to be a secutor. Then it would have been a word vs word situation. True, he's likely to die the next round, but at least then he might have taken the secutor out.

I also don't know why they spread their attacks out. "Remove whole models where applicable"

Valhallan42nd wrote:I will say that I had thor pegged from the start. He was being too talkative.

Remind me not to play you when I'm loyalist. I'm always talkative.

Valhallan42nd wrote:I also don't know why they spread their attacks out. "Remove whole models where applicable"

Because of the servo skulls. The advantage they brought was huge, and consequently the ability to potentially kill multiple investigators/investigatees in one fell swoop was equally huge. Recall how much pressure was put on everyone when both tech priests had one wound each and could have been killed in a single night action? That's important pressure for scum to keep Imperium under in my opinion.

Manchu wrote:- having wounds

An interesting mechanic. Overall I find it good - but I will note it raises the difficulty level on heretics if they lose one of their team early. A lone heretic can only kill a person every other night phase, which doesn't leave too much of a threat on the town. I tried to pressure this as much as I could, but it was difficult. I'm not sure I have an easy solution and overall I really like the psychology of the wound system so don't think I want it scrapped. I just think it needs potential review moving forward.

- servo skulls

I had not fully considered the implications of a mass release. Mass release of role revealing devices is incredibly difficult for scum to battle in a system with hitpoints. There is a reason the end of the game moved away from roleplay and moved into "If A investigates B he will either find him guilty or innocent. If B is innocent then C must be innocent as well, but..." Now, I quite enjoy logic puzzles like that, but I get the feeling that it was not the way you hoped the game would evolve. Removing the servo skulls would certainly move it back towards more generalized questioning and scum tells discussion and away from the logic puzzle aspect.

- laspistol instead of vote

I'll admit I'm a big fan of the voting system, but laspistol possession raises some interesting conundrums. It's still potentially overpowered though because of the ability for quick shots by heretics coming off of a Night Phase. If both Stynier and I had lasted till Day 3 we could have basically coordinated some oddball time to snag the pistol and go to work, and probably could have rolled the loyalists quite easily even if they had still outnumbered us substantially. The only time it really seemed to be shining was near the end when Arctik tried to tackle Gornall.

- wresting away rules

Works in progress. We found a couple clarifications to be made in this play through. Probably we'll blunder into another next time. I might suggest changing the wresting rules so that the second wrest attempt actually gives the laspistol to the person who initiated the wrest. That would prevent wrest initiators from moving into a zone where it's impossible for them to get a laspistol. Also it will then make the wrest initiator's demands for help in wresting more of a legitimate choice for whoever swoops in.

- secutor

I still think he's unbalancing, though I will clarify that to say 'in a game this small.' Yeah, it was bad luck that we hit a tech priest and the secutor with our first targets - but with 9 players, 2 of which are heretics and 3 of which are power roles statistically it was not that difficult of an event to have happen. Also, techpriests are a *very* potent role already. To be frank, Demogerg was right that they should have basically declared Day 1 (though perhaps optimal is Day 2). Tech priests declaring gives the town 2 verifiable absolute guaranteed town players (in a 9 player game). Heretics can't even try to counter claim, as 1-2 laspistol shots will verify which pair is to be trusted. That is a HUGE advantage to root out scum. To then throw in a power role who is basically immune to night kill since he'll mark his killer (twice) and is almost self-verifiable as well...it's a tough win condition for heretics (unless there had been 3 regular heretics, I'll concede, but then we'd have too few vanilla roles). The secutor is good, but is exceedingly powerful especially when paired with self verifiable power roles like tech priests. There really needs to be a secutor or tech priests in a 9 player game, and leave it open that it's either or. That way the heretics won't know if they should self wound to avoid secutors or claim as tech priests. It also prevents tech priests from claiming day 1 or 2 since town cannot afford to trust a tech priest claim since they can't be assured they are tech priests or heretics.

- possessed heretic

Too powerful if there's three heretics in a 9 player game (which is almost broken in favor of heretics). Probably fairly balanced for 2 heretics in 9. The multi wound power certainly helped me get Arctik shot.



Also, just as a random note. On Day One; I was well aware it was a three day deadline but kept my mouth shut because no one else had mentioned it. Did that sneak up on any of you guys as much as I hoped it had?

Thor665 wrote:

Also, just as a random note. On Day One; I was well aware it was a three day deadline but kept my mouth shut because no one else had mentioned it. Did that sneak up on any of you guys as much as I hoped it had?

Indeed it did. I thought we had more time.

Im down for game 2. I'l try to be a little more involved.

Maybe you should put a timer on how long you can hold the pistol for.