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Valhallan42nd wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

Also, just as a random note. On Day One; I was well aware it was a three day deadline but kept my mouth shut because no one else had mentioned it. Did that sneak up on any of you guys as much as I hoped it had?

Indeed it did. I thought we had more time.

Ditto... that really threw me for a loop.

Thank gawd. The discussion of the mass release had gotten enough traction by that point I was praying for the night phase just to allow Stynier and myself some time to strategize.

Thor665 wrote:Thank gawd. The discussion of the mass release had gotten enough traction by that point I was praying for the night phase just to allow Stynier and myself some time to strategize.

Yup... I think having loyalists declare Tech Priests immediately and mass release skulls is a pretty strong tactic. You could even do something like TP1 investigates Suspect1, TP2 investigates Suspect2, and either have each of the suspects investigate another suspect, or even have both of them investigate the same person for some verification. I like the idea of having either the Tech Priests or the Secutor, because it adds more unknowns to the equation, making it less of a logic puzzle exercise. However, does that swing the balance too hard the other way? I dunno.

For the record, I think we should all remember we just made Dakka-Mafia history with the first Townie kill of a Traitor and the first Townie Victory!

It took us four games

My record is pretty strong so far, 2-1

Well that was... interesting...

Just because I feel it always helps to know what people were or were not hinking as they played through a game - I'll offer up a quick rundown of my activities and goals.

Prior to game
I tell Manchu I think Imperium will have some advantages, especially with a Secutor role. My role PM is for a possessed heretic. ::mutter, mutter:: Still, I get Stynier as a partner, and I think he can be a cunning guy, so that's a plus.

Game Day 1
Can't talk to Stynier until night one so I just open up my play trying to act pretty much like I would if I was a pro-Imperium role. I even try to agree with things that seem logically to me to be more likely to help catch Stynier and I. I start to feel a lot of pressure once talk about role claims for tech priests and the mass servo release come up. Egads! I liked how Stynier managed to end up against tech priest reveal while I was on the pro side. I also appreciated that Valhallan was against immediate release as it let me play up trying to act like I was seeking consensus while also slowing things down while waiting for deadline to hit. (even had some PMs with Manchu where he was nce enough to say he wouldn't announce the upcoming deadline out loud)

Game Night 1
*whew* made it. Got to say hey to Stynier and discuss out whom we should stab and other ideas as regards trying to protect ourselves from mass skull release. I came up with the inflict one wound on two people concept, to which Stynier agreed since we couldn't afford to double stab someone with a possible Secutor out there. I offered up a preference to stab either Demo or Valhallan (with a leaning for Valhallan) since I figured at that point it would be easy to cast some doubt on the other one due to their squabble over the pistol and other ideas. Stynier agreed and made the choice for a random stab at Gornall - that I agreed was a good idea since Gornall usually uses a lot of logic, and you don't always want the logical ones lasting too long in these games. So, I stabbed Valhallan and Stynier stabbed Gornall

Game Day 2
...who happened to be a tech priest and a Secutor respectively. Uf da! At this point it was damage control. Stynier probably should have screamed that he was the Secutor, but probably thought it safer to go the innocent route (which just meant he could get Valhallan possibly shot which is almost as good as if he'd declared Secutor and gotten Gornall possibly shot.) Then Valhallan turned out to be tech priest - lesson for heretics, always claim Secutor if you get wounded by a Secutor. Always. I went into full on "helpful innocent" mode and even went so far as to put myself on the side agreeing that Stynier should be shot (though I was trying to drop a few possible doubts as regards Gornall - they would come back to help later). Stynier is shot, and thankfully because we were focusing on him he was shot without us planning out what to do with the servo skulls - a minor win foe me I felt.

Game Night 2
this was a lonely night. I Actually already knew what I was doing by the end of Day 2, but I intentionally took a long time to get back to Manchu in the hopes of breeding the concept that there were still at least 2 heretics alive (I don't know if it worked or not, but I figured it couldn't hurt). Manchu helped a bit too, innocently, because he had to get back and verify that my stab on Orkeo was indeed a single wound stab, not a Possessed super stab. Knowing that I needed to be ready for the near unavoidable servo-skull release on Day 3 I stuck to the single stab in order to make it possible for me to kill either tech priest I needed to without having to burn my possessed double tap power. I also *totally missed* Arctik deploying against Demo - I had always originally intended on Night 3 to kill whoever investigated Demo since I knew he'd be an easy guy to get shot due to various suspicions of him. A mistake I thought would cost me my third kill, so as Day 3 started I was already uneasy.

Game Day 3
This was the most difficult day because it was the hardest for me. To be honest, a lot of my logical breakdowns of various plans was quite useful because *I* needed that information. I was making all the best options for heretics and asking for help from you guys basically to make sure I'd have a good plan sorted out going into the Night Phase. My goal was, of course, to be an investigator - however with so few people left alive I knew that would be hard to swing. Barring that I wanted Arctik to be the one to investigate me or for it to be Demo but without Arctik being shot. I had always sort of wanted the round robin plan, so I had to try to paint it as at *least* as good as any other plan. I already mentioned how I had to dance around Arctik's plan a bit, since his would have been hard for me to deal with comfortably. I also absolutely was against any plan with Gornall investigating me, as then the gig would be up. I worked hard to stay buried in logic so I would seem relatively neutral and I also tried not to particularly come out for any plan. T'was a godsend when Gornall finally offered up his extended round robin plan, because it could work perfectly for my needs. I was able to include Arctik in the loop that way and was able to get Mekboy shot fairly easily simply because he hadn't been talking much. (silence always helps heretics). I tried to stay mostly neutral on most topics otherwise, but would come down strong when anyone said anything that I could defend because of the rules - it helped me seem strongly opinionated without having to expose too much.

Game Night 3
Again I delayed a bit intentionally to act as though there might be two heretics, but again my kill action was predetermined. I couldn't allow Arctik to be found innocent as that would prove Demo was innocent. If I had killed Demo and LL had verified Arctik my goose would have been cooked. Thankfully a scum Arctik-Demo team would have the same actions as a possessed Thor team, and I knew I could work the odds in the next day. Lord-Loss was super stabbed and I was happily content I could get Arctik shot on the morrow (his growing suspicion of me without being able to put a finger on what exactly I was doing was also helping because he was becoming frustrated that no one else really saw it or commented on it. One of his most helpful posts was when he attacked my non-review of his plan while also commenting on pretty much the only thing I had reviewed. This allowed me to turn the attack back on him and point out how *he* was obviously being the scummy guy in the exchange.)

Game Day 4
This was the funnest day because I knew my fate was sealed so it was just a matter of seeing if I could convince everyone (or at least Gornall) to shoot Arctik first. I knew going in that Demo would out me, but I suspected Arctik would be a little hot headed and Demo had a good chance of being equally vociferous when I cooly disregarded his absolute knowledge of my scummishness. All I had to do was stay cool and rational, which is what Gornall had been trying to do as well, and I knew I would not be shot. Arctik's quick call for my shooting was very beneficial for me because I was able to early place myself as someone calling for cooler heads and more information (I suspect Arctik had been 90% certain about me on Day 3, and now finally had some more solid evidence to hop on). I calmy assured everyone Demo would clear me and that we now had our traitor in Arctik. But then, *gasp* Demo calls me a traitor! The fiend! I painted the very ominous picture of them as a scum pair and offered up the quite clearly logical point that shooting Arctik first was our best strategy. I did have one very uneasy moment where both Arctik and Demo were online and no one else was. I ended up lurking around just to be there to hopefully prevent a gun wresting that could have ended with me being shot. (it was late at night and I had to be up early for work the next day too - you jerks!)

My absolute favorite interactions in the game were with Demo on Day 4. He KNEW I was a lying scum heretic. But he was equally convinced I had to have some sort of plan that he couldn't see, so he had to keep battling against my logic (which was unassailable logic at that). It couldn't have been planned better, because his insistence on doing something that wasn't logical helped paint the Arctik+Demo pairing even clearer for everyone. I also loved how I got to keep pointing out how my only logical partner was either Arctik or Gornall. Arctik - knowing for a fact he wasn't a traitor - then had to get suddenly suspicious of Gornall, which I knew would help cement in Gornall's mind the need to shoot Arctik before me. The last minute wrest attempt for the gun was the nail in the coffin, when I got to sweep in and defend Gornall I was the clear innocent and it was all over for Arctik.

Then I was shot a lot of times in a way that felt slightly intrusive to my personal space. (though I did appreciate some of the genuine seeming satisfaction in murdering me you all had - methinks that's a mark of a good traitor)

A good game and also my first time ever playing scum, it was quite informative.

I was in line with Arctiks feelings that you were the heretic when I noticed how you danced around and adjusted all the round-robin release plans even though they all has nearly the same success percentages. Just like AF I couldnt put my finger on it.

By day 3 I was pretty sure we had won, and I was just trying to stretch it out, when the servo skull came back on day 4 with you as a heretic it became obvious that the game was over, so I just decided to play the insistant fool for dramatic effect.

it worked, and many lulz were had by all.

Despite my feeling that he was a traitor, I couldn't go after Thor. If we killed the guy who ran our other two games outright on the first day, I would have felt guilty as all hell.

Demogerg wrote:By day 3 I was pretty sure we had won, and I was just trying to stretch it out, when the servo skull came back on day 4 with you as a heretic it became obvious that the game was over, so I just decided to play the insistant fool for dramatic effect.

Aww. For the record I'd rather be caught on Day 2 by people trying their hardest then on Day 4 to stretch things out. I was trying my hardest the whole durn time.

Thor665 wrote:

Demogerg wrote:By day 3 I was pretty sure we had won, and I was just trying to stretch it out, when the servo skull came back on day 4 with you as a heretic it became obvious that the game was over, so I just decided to play the insistant fool for dramatic effect.

Aww. For the record I'd rather be caught on Day 2 by people trying their hardest then on Day 4 to stretch things out. I was trying my hardest the whole durn time.

You did a good job of keeping the idea that two traitors were still out there going. Because of that, we couldn't focus on the single traitor angle, and instead had to cover all possibilities. When Stynier came back guilty, I pretty much knew we had it won if there was a single traitor... it was just a matter of how many days it took. But because we couldn't be sure about that, we had to really drag it out, allowing you to get some extra kills. I REALLY wanted to investigate you, but because of the possibility of there being two traitors, I think the round-robin was a better play for us. On day Arctik got shot, no matter much I thought you were a traitor (which is the direction I was leaning until Arctik tried to take the gun), I couldn't be sure enough to give a two-traitor team an instant win if we shot the wrong person that day. Very good job of stretching it out as long as you could.

Thor665 wrote:

Demogerg wrote:By day 3 I was pretty sure we had won, and I was just trying to stretch it out, when the servo skull came back on day 4 with you as a heretic it became obvious that the game was over, so I just decided to play the insistant fool for dramatic effect.

Aww. For the record I'd rather be caught on Day 2 by people trying their hardest then on Day 4 to stretch things out. I was trying my hardest the whole durn time.

Heh. I was trying pretty hard near the end. I went over every possibility (including the fact that Gornall could have shot someone by now if he was the traitor. I didn't want to say it for fear that he'd do it, though).

Killing you instead of Arctik really would have been pretty illogical, though. What's the worth of a crewman's life compared the majesty of the God Emperor embodied in fire and steel?

Very impressive post there, Thor.

I think this game became too much a logic puzzle. What would you guys think about a game where you could put RP elements to more strategic use?

Orkeosaurus wrote:What's the worth of a crewman's life compared the majesty of the God Emperor embodied in fire and steel?

Well spoken, sir.

BL

Manchu wrote:I think this game became too much a logic puzzle. What would you guys think about a game where you could put RP elements to more strategic use?

I agree that it did turn into a big logic puzzle. I think that the skulls really encourage that. Voting is what really provides the opportunity to do some lying/manipulating/etc that makes for some interesting games. The pistol provides the opportunity for that too, but because it only requires 2-3 people on any given day, I think the scale is much more limited.

Manchu wrote:What would you guys think about a game where you could put RP elements to more strategic use?

What do you mean?

Giving you the ability to make a character who's attributes/abilities matter to the game rather than everything being a discussion. I'm thinking of creating a non-Mafia message board game to explore some of these ideas before writing up the next Heretic! rules. I like Mafia a lot but it can be kind of exhausting for the players. I'm currently in KilKrazy's PBeM EnGarde! game but think that's a bit overwhelming and too long-term. This game lasted 18 days, which I think is a shortish-to-appropriate length.

I'll pretty much echo Gornall's comments. The skulls tend to make the game more logic puzzle, the pistol actually also holds back a certain amount of drama because people can be shot if only two or three people suspect them as opposed to lynched with a majority. As a result there's less need to try to sell others on your viewpoint.

I will say I'm not for RP elements along the lines of Drk_O's game if that's what you're talking - as I usually like my rules up front and understood by all. But a game featuring roleplay as an important aspect could be attractive depending on how it's done.

I don't mean having surprises. The general set-up that I'm working with is that the players are Chaos Space Marines competing for favor with the Warp Gods. You start with a pool of points that you can use to buy attributes and wargear. I'm a bit hazy still on how it will work, but you can then interact with NPCs, events, and ultimately even challenge one another to level, which comes in the form of Chaos god "favor" and added abilities. The ultimate goal is to be the last man standing. That player will ascend to daemonhood. The point is to balance it so that there are enough mechanics to keep it interesting but that it is also simple enough to keep it playable at a quick-to-even pace over about a month or so. I'm not sure if I will incorporate a "guess who the scum is" mechanic, but I'm leaning toward not doing so. The point of this exercise, other than having a good time, is to test how RP elements can work or not work on a message board.

Manchu wrote:Very impressive post there, Thor.

I think this game became too much a logic puzzle. What would you guys think about a game where you could put RP elements to more strategic use?

Well, we were playing worshippers of the Machine God. Logical processers and all that, what-what, cheerio.

I was thinking about this:

Instead of tech priests, start the game with one Devout. The Devout gets the night action of "Make Contact" where they can attempt to reach out to another player during the night cycle. If they choose wisely, and get another pro-town player, they can PM them during successive night phases. If they choose poorly, and get an anti-town player, they die during that night phase. They can perform this action only twice during a game.

Instead of the Servo Skulls or an Inqusitor, there is a Monitor, who has a secret panel of video monitors in their room to watch during the night cycle. If they monitor anyone who takes an action during the night, such as a Devout or an anti-townie, then that person is noted as "out of bed". If they happen to observe the victim of the anti-townies, then one of the attackers is randomly revealed to that person alone.

Those are interesting ideas Valhallan.

I took a look at that other game Manchu mentioned and it was a bit too complicated for me.

I like that idea Manchu, but it seems very hard to plan, good luck

Gornall wrote:I took a look at that other game Manchu mentioned and it was a bit too complicated for me.

Yeah, I'm finding that it's a bit too complicated for me as well. The design parameters for what I'm planning are

(1) complex enough to give players meaningful and truly diverse choices for character, actions, strategy

(2) simple enough that players will not have to constantly look back at the rules post at the beginning of the thread

@L-L: I'm gonna take my time so don't worry. Will also send these around to you guys for C&C, of course. Looks like a multi-week project.