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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 09:04:58
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Relax man.
Tell you what. I like the bill and approve for reasons I stated. You don't like it for reasons you stated. Arguing it with you won't change the stance for either of us so I'm done with "our" conversation.
I expect to get attacked by my usual antagonists in the future and I'll have my hands full with them so lets just agree to disagree.
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--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 09:11:21
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Lord of the Fleet
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... and everyone totally ignores every statement I've made on this thread, in favor of engaging the troll.
Is there a point to this, anymore?
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Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 09:13:26
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Guitardian wrote:
Well that's great. Lucky fething you. Some people do not have that convenience. Quit being so selfish.
Umm, sorry dude? I haven't said anything about legal immigration, I've only made statements regarding the what would be necessary for border control.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 09:15:36
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Would be a true statement if I was a troll.
Too bad I'm allowed to express opinions and beliefs on a public forum.
Trolling implies I say gak to get a rise from people. People don't like my opinion that's too bad. Saying "all Mexicans are criminals" is trolling; saying "this new immigration law will help prevent illegals from staying in this country" is my opinion.
If someone takes offense at my opinion and it's not a trolling or flame-baiting statement that is their problem, not mine.
If you have issue Baron report my post but I've been watching my P's and Q's and the mods have nothing on me and you don't have proof I'm trolling. Nice try though.
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--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 09:20:22
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Wrexasaur wrote:And a whole lot of that money goes back into Mexico.
I have no idea how much money illegal immigrants send to Mexico.
According to the Washington Post around 20 billion a year is sent from all Mexican workers back to Mexico - that's the second biggest source of revenue for Mexico behind oil. I don't know what portion of that would be illegal immigrants, but I think it'd be a reasonable portion.
Fateweaver wrote:Tell you what. I like the bill and approve for reasons I stated. You don't like it for reasons you stated. Arguing it with you won't change the stance for either of us so I'm done with "our" conversation.
Yeah, you know how I keep pointing out that there are basic problems that keep your opinions so simplistic and wrong... it's because of the above attitude. Automatically Appended Next Post: Fateweaver wrote:Would be a true statement if I was a troll.
I don't think you're a troll. Though to be fair to the good Baron, it's fairly easy to mistake a wingnut for a troll.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/01 09:21:15
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 09:27:49
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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How is my opinion wrong? No such thing as a righ or wrong opinion.
If it is my opinion the sky is pink it is not wrong because it is my opinion of what color I think the sky is.
Problem is sebster is that if I keep going back and forth threads get locked, names get called and I get banned because I am the one flame baited into responding to personal attacks.
It is YOUR opinion that the bill is bad and will make things worst. That is NOT fact; that is opinion. It is my opinion (and apparently that of the AZ governor) that it will improve the situation in AZ. I don't claim that as fact, I have stated many times it is opinion.
If I stated "Fact is......." then you could call me out on it and try to belittle my intelligence or reasoning skills. But it's impossible to call someones opinion "wrong" as opinions are based on personal feeling and beliefs, not on facts.
Comprende` or should I draw a picture?
I don't have the clout some posters have to be able to flame and attack so I have to watch what I say. It's been the Fate/Guitardian show for about 8 pages. I'm ending it and not because you believe I'm wrong and won't admit to it. I'm ending it because I don't really want another vacation from dakka again.
This time I've done nothing to catch the ire of Red or Frazz and I'm keeping it that way.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/01 09:28:37
--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 09:39:10
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Fateweaver wrote:How is my opinion wrong? No such thing as a righ or wrong opinion.
No, but that doesn't make all opinions equal. There are better and poorer methods of developing opinions. Proper research of the facts, re-assessment of assumptions, and proper consideration of the arguments of others will produce better opinions, and you consistantly ignore those things in favour of falling back on the same old political beliefs.
If it is my opinion the sky is pink it is not wrong because it is my opinion of what color I think the sky is.
If that opinion was based on having been told the colour of the sky by a pundit on television working for the 'we need money to paint the sky blue because it's pink' PAC, and you've rejected all suggestions that the sky might in fact be blue right now, it's a crap opinion. If it's based on going out and looking at the sky and seeing it was pink, it's a more reasonable opinion.
It is YOUR opinion that the bill is bad and will make things worst. That is NOT fact; that is opinion. It is my opinion (and apparently that of the AZ governor) that it will improve the situation in AZ. I don't claim that as fact, I have stated many times it is opinion.
My opinion, as stated many, many times in this thread, is that the debate is defined by a focus on guns & ammo solutions by almost all supporters of the AZ bill. My issue that makes me consider those opinions poor is that they have failed to address on any level the idea that other approaches might be cheaper and more effective.
I don't have the clout some posters have to be able to flame and attack so I have to watch what I say. It's been the Fate/Guitardian show for about 8 pages. I'm ending it and not because you believe I'm wrong and won't admit to it. I'm ending it because I don't really want another vacation from dakka again.
While heated, this thread has managed to steer clear of personal attacks to the best of my memory. If you haven't got any warnings it strikes me as an odd reason to back out of the thread.
My point is plain and has been for a while now, you and other posters in this thread have simply refused to consider alternatives to big walls and dudes with machine guns. If you consider other options and reject them that is one thing, but ignoring them entirely does in fact mean that your opinion is poor.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/05/01 09:41:53
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 10:02:33
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Lord of the Fleet
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I hate to say it, but requiring everyone to carry papers with them, and arresting those who cannot produce them, is an earmark of a fascist state. Particularly when it's to weed out a certain group of people. Historically, it's not a big jump from there to sewing yellow stars on people's clothes that read 'juden'.
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Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 12:24:37
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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The Hammer of Witches
A new day, a new time zone.
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Ihren Paiper Bitte everyone, at least if you're a brown-american. It's already happened. A truck driver, U.S. citizen born and raised in Fresno CA was stopped at a weigh station in Arizona, and then detained because his driver's license and social security number were not enough to prove his legal citizenship. He wasn't released until his wife came, bearing his CA birth certificate, and this shows exactly how this law will work.
As it now stands, if you're brown-american, a passport or birth certificate is now required for interstate travel through Arizona because otherwise the color of your skin means the driver's license that's all the ID white-americans need is not adequate for you.
Welcome to Arizona. Ihren Paiper Bitte.
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"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..." Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 13:32:14
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Charging Dragon Prince
Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
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The feds wouldn't let me back in without the right papers last time I went overseas (to WORK mind you) and once I got back in, wouldn't let me out until I shelled out approx $1500 and a year on a waiting list. All over a stolen wallet. Anyone who thinks this is just, please raise your hand and I'll show you why immigrants are prone to desperate actions in desperate times. And I'm not even brown looking, and I have an American accent too. Yay for laws! Lets make more of them so we can fine more people for random stuff, to pay the ever increasing cost of maintaining a work force to enforce them. Great idea.
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Retroactively applied infallability is its own reward. I wish I knew this years ago.
 I am Red/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today! <small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>I'm both chaotic and orderly. I value my own principles, and am willing to go to extreme lengths to enforce them, often trampling on the very same principles in the process. At best, I'm heroic and principled; at worst, I'm hypocritical and disorderly. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 13:57:16
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Fateweaver wrote:How is my opinion wrong? No such thing as a righ or wrong opinion.
If it is my opinion the sky is pink it is not wrong because it is my opinion of what color I think the sky is.
You are being disingenuous. Why bother to state an opinion if you have no idea if it is right or wrong? Of course you think you are right.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 14:32:43
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Fixture of Dakka
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A note on the abuse of entitlement, "welfare" programs from a former social-worker.
The only such program that illegal residents are eligible for is medical care for an expecting mother. I don't know about you all but since the child is going to be an American citizen, I don't really have a problem with this one. It's cheaper to provide office visits, regular care for the mother than it is for an emergency room visit when the child comes. Again, the mother may not be a citizen but the child is and it's the child that is receiving the direct care. It's no worse than "Tammy", the third generation (white) welfare baby that came into my office and demanded more food stamps because she couldn't be bothered to get off her arse and work.
By federal law, only American citizens are able to receive benefits from entitlement programs. Medicaid is a state-run, federally subsidized program so it may vary a bit from state to state. Food Stamps (now called SNAP) are directly, federally monitored and funded to each state. As such, the law states that only citizens receive food assistance so when people go on and on about free food to illegals, etc; they're full of crap. A household of illegal parents may include citizen children who would be eligible for assistance based upon the family's income but it's a pro-rated amount, meant to benefit the citizen child. Keyword, citizen.
I could spend a great deal of time attempting to convince the haters that as a whole, the hispanic community abuses the system much, much less than the caucasian and african-american population. Not to mention all the free services american-indians receive as a direct result of white guilt.
My personal experience. I managed a case load of over 630 families and only a fraction of them were hispanic (citizen or otherwise) and a fraction of that fraction received food stamp (SNAP) assistance. You want to stop welfare abuse? Kick all the lazy, free-loading white and black people off the system and we'd be in much greater financial shape because the biggest liars I dealt with as a case worker were not hispanic/latino.
But I know, many people don't want to hear that.
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Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 14:57:19
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Charging Dragon Prince
Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
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Yeah I for one never got a handout even though I've been here 33 years and pay taxes for about half of those years. 'Tis tru, we don't get anything. And I can't vote to change it either. Color me bitter about this arguement yet? You know what we do? We WROK/WORK whatever job is available. Makes us horrible people, right?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/01 15:02:48
Retroactively applied infallability is its own reward. I wish I knew this years ago.
 I am Red/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today! <small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>I'm both chaotic and orderly. I value my own principles, and am willing to go to extreme lengths to enforce them, often trampling on the very same principles in the process. At best, I'm heroic and principled; at worst, I'm hypocritical and disorderly. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 16:02:07
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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You could become a citizen.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 16:17:05
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Charging Dragon Prince
Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
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Sure I could. If you were given the option during the Reagan years, Bush round 1 or round 2 years, to claim "I want free food so I agree with what this country is doing and want to be part of it" would you go for it? I just make my own way as I go, rather than signing on for financial ease. If every citizen was actually law abiding, upstanding, and benevolent then maybe I would consider the $1000 more bucks for a right to food stamps and votes that don't matter after recounts. Until United Statesians can learn to behave I cannot count myself as one of them even if it means I get food stamps or easy I.D. process. Sorry. Advice heard, just not taken.
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Retroactively applied infallability is its own reward. I wish I knew this years ago.
 I am Red/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today! <small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>I'm both chaotic and orderly. I value my own principles, and am willing to go to extreme lengths to enforce them, often trampling on the very same principles in the process. At best, I'm heroic and principled; at worst, I'm hypocritical and disorderly. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 17:21:58
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Lord of the Fleet
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Folks, you have to remember that the British government screwed over the people under Bloody Marge using the tricks that he alludes to, so Guitardian is not exactly unbiased. Though he has a point.
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Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 17:22:59
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Wait, so you have been here for 33 years but won't become a citizen because that means taking handouts? I is confused. Your reasoning seems spurious at best, but perhaps I am missing something.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 17:35:16
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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I'm just saying that you complain you don't have the right to vote and influence the decisions. If you became a citizen you would have the right to vote.
You don't have to give up your British citizenship to acquire US citizenship. You could hold both passports if you wanted.
https://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/dual-citizenship.html
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/dualnationality/
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 18:01:59
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Lord of the Fleet
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My question is: can you have three nationalities? I've been thinking of picking up Irish in addition to my Seneca and US citizenships. Or possibly trading in the US one for Dutch Antilles. Not sure about that yet.
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Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 18:50:55
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Yes in theory. It is harder in practice. It depends on circumstances. In some nations you can become a citizen by marrying a citizen.
There can be disadvantages too, for example if a nation has conscription you become liable once you become a citizen of that nation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 19:17:21
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Ahtman wrote:Wait, so you have been here for 33 years but won't become a citizen because that means taking handouts? I is confused. Your reasoning seems spurious at best, but perhaps I am missing something.
No, it's because the choices of US citizens don't meet his own standards of morality. Which is probably more odd, thinking about it.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 19:41:18
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Sometimes you have to compromise.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 20:18:54
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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sigh.... If the issue is "probable Cause"... Truck drivers are required to show proper ID when stopped at a state run weigh station. in the example above, we are not given any information other than the driver was brown skinned. Was there something about his DL or SS card that red flagged him? Like, was his SS card Laminated? That's a no no. Was the laminate on his DL seperating? Too many questions arise from lack of information in that instance. Also, was he the only one or were others that looked just like him also detained? A one-off incident is not a trend.
Acting beligerant when approached by police is borderline for PC. Running or attempting to run is considered in most jurisdictions as PC. Innocent people do not typically run from police, nor do they get mouthy.
Imagine this.. you are hanging out infront of YLFGS just before it opens. There are clearly visible signs saying "No Loitering". You have your gaming gear with you in cases. An officer approaches. If you get stupid and mouth off he will probably start asking for ID... no matter where you happen to be.
However if you remain conversational he will probably just ask what you are doing and explaining could not only fill the time but may actually help promote the hobby and spark the officers interest.
Even if that does not happen He will know what people go to that store for and will then be better able to assess the situation if he sees a small crowd there later.
The Az law allows police officers to use their own judgement and local knowledge to assess whether suspicion exists to approach some-one and proceed from that point.
A crowd of people hanging near a home improvement/DIY store looking for day work would not be seen as the same as a similar group waiting at the local Day Labor provider. (Able Body is one such that I know of.) So there are Legal ways to get day labor jobs Other than standing by the roadside and waiting for a truck to stop.
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Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!
Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."
:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)
"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/01 22:38:48
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Fateweaver wrote:
If it is my opinion the sky is pink it is not wrong because it is my opinion of what color I think the sky is.
No, oh god, no. Opinions don't work that way. If you believe that the sky is pink, then any statement regarding your belief would be true if it correlated with a that belief. However, the content of that statement would still be false.
Edit for clarity: A statement of opinion is a true statement, most of the time, with respect to the opinion of the speaker. However, it is not necessarily a true statement with respect to the world as defined by the set of: [reality - the speaker].
Opinions are not always true. Truth only governs empirical fact.
Sorry, but that was a horrible crime against logic.
Fateweaver wrote:
It is YOUR opinion that the bill is bad and will make things worst. That is NOT fact; that is opinion.
Actually, it seems to be that his stated opinion regards only the potential for racial discrimination created by this legislation. I do not believe that Sebster has said anything about the bill being bad, or its potential to make things worse.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/05/01 23:00:40
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/02 00:56:26
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Fireknife Shas'el
All over the U.S.
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Fateweaver wrote:
1) AZ is doing what the constitution allows it to do. The Federal governments job is to protect us from enemies foreign and domestic. Not all mexican immigrants are violent criminals but the illegal ones are here illegally, obviously. The Constitution gives states the power to form their own laws and regulations unless they are needed by the Federal government. AZ is exercising it's constitutional authority to act in behalf of the betterment of it's state and citizens. It is not operating under martial law.
This is very incorrect. The states do have the right to set their own laws as long as they do not overstep their bounds. This is a state attempting to dictate immigration policy to the federal government and in someway for other states. The Fed Government was created to govern 4 very specific areas. These areas were to:
1)Insure, protect, and regulate the national and international boundries
2)To regulate interstate and international trade in orger to protect our nation from being destroyed economically by powers both within and with out.
3)To insure public safety
4)To protect and insure the rights of the individuals against possible abuses by individual states or the nation as a whole.
This Law steps all over 3 of the 4 primary powers of the fed gov. I can't beleive I'm having to support the fed gov's position in this. Yet another reason for me to detest this bill.
Fateweaver wrote:2) I'm not suggesting that crimes by citizens are less punishable.
Good to know, it was starting to sound otherwise.
Fateweaver wrote:3) Case in point, some rancher in AZ (or maybe Tx) was killed by illegals trying to cross his land. AZ officials are searching for a BP agent who was wounded by an illegal who shot him with an AK-47. Perhaps the people of AZ have a reason to fear illegals? Or is our Secretary of Homeland Security, who by the way wouldn't know her head from her ass, right in that AZ/Mexico border is the safest it's ever been?
There are just as many stories of US citiens robbing and killing those trying to make their way to or across our borders.
Safer? No it is not safer, it will never be safer. Paranoia dictates that the brown hoarde will always be an increasing threat. Seriously, read what you type. This is how you are coming off.
Fateweaver wrote:AZ is not trying to regulate immigration. It is protecting itself and it's citizens by upholding the law the Federal government won't uphold itself. Regulating would mean that it would only let certain people in legally, change the regulatory guidlines set forth by the government in making citizenship possible. Kicking illegals out of the country, ideally ONLY after being arrested/stopped for something else (driving like an idiot, shoplifting, etc...) is not regulating immigration.
Edited out the Anti-Obama rant and BTW. Dude, illogical rants like yours do tremendous damage to what others are trying to accomplish in the 2012 election.
Anyway, This entire sentence is complete non-sense. Of course it is an attempt to regulate immigration, this is because the bill targets only "immigrants".
Your grasp of where the law currently stands in this country is.........somewhat idealistic and out of date. Cops can pull you over for a random safety check, claim your mudflaps were flapping in the wind, detain you for wearing dark clothes at night, and the good ol catch all(Drum Roll Pls)..................................Felony Suspicion. This last one is a exploitable loophole in that the officer has the right to pull you over if he feels that you are in someway committing or going to imminently commit a felony.
Fateweaver wrote:For the 12th time or so. There will be "TFG" but "TFG" exists right now. The new law won't change things. If some cop is going to falsely arrests immigrants after the bill passes he would have anyway, he is doing so now. You might think AZ is becoming a police state but that implies AZ is trying to control it's citizens. It is not. It is trying to control the illegals, you know? "NON-Citizens."
And again, It will create an enviroment that will foster such abuse.
Fateweaver wrote:Never had a reason to move state to state. Mn is my home and until such a reason exists for me to have to move I'm going to be staying here for the foreseeable future. Not to mention my DL has first, middle name and last name in full so I don't have to worry about the "middle initial" fiasco, do I? Also, if an immigrant is in AZ legally and they travel to another state and find it impossible to transfer everything over I guess they have no choice but to stay in AZ. So internally, within the state, replacing a lost ID is normally not an issue and if it is then you'd better write a letter to your congressman/woman, shouldn't ya?  Only part of the world I been in has been Canada. Last time there? 1990. Guess what? Pre-911 I didn't need to have a passport to enter Canada. In fact up until 911 it was common for 19 and 20yr old college kids to drive 30 minutes across the Canadian border to drink because in Canada legal drinking age then was 19.
Ah no wonder there is a language barrier. Your from Southern Canada.
The letters have been written and what happens is that the laws get ammended and become even more muddled. Colorados ID laws are funny and are just starting to realize the headache they created. In Co, your Birth cert. only establishes age and does not count towards verfiying identity, Niether do SS cards, School records, medical records and such. CO recognizes its own and a handful of other states DL's, Military ID's, and Passports as the only legitimate means of proving your identity in order to get a CO. Kids have to have both parents signature to get theirs because the state doesn't accept oth childhood documentation as ID. Now think about the number of families that are split and you'll see the problem. CO. may have fixed this in the past year but I haven't read up on it lately.
Fateweaver wrote:You aren't answering my question. Do you honestly feel it's okay for immigrants to be here illegally? Or should they have to get citizenship? If you answer yes to the former, well, I don't want you in my country; if you answer no to 1 but yes to the latter statement than what is the big deal with allowing police to arrest "illegals" for being here "illegally" during routine investigations? I answered yours, you answer mine.
The question is not worth answering because it is a trick question that imposes overly limiting paradigms and is an over simplification of the issue. As to the big deal about this law, I covered that in a previous post, Please pay attention.
Tell you what, I will humour you with a what if?
If I said I had a problem with illegal immigration I would still have huge issues with this law. My problem has to do with the steady devolving of a free Republic into a Police State.
Now if the question better reflected the issue at hand, I would have a more solid answer. If asked something like this:
If immigration laws were updated and changed to more accurately respond to the needs of the situation by allowing those who arrive at our borders a time period to earn there citizenship, would you deport those whom failed to meet the requirements? Then I'd say yes, deport them.
After all of these changes, I would still condemn the AZ law as a terrible leap towards totalitarianism.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/02 04:20:54
Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09
If they are too stupid to live, why make them?
In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!
Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/02 03:34:23
Subject: Re:What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Lord of the Fleet
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I found this motivator and thought it sums up my opinion of the whole thing perfectly.
Remember folks, Hitler was the Constitutionally elected leader of Germany.
Though I admit it puts a new spin on 'Work Makes You Free'...
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/05/02 08:27:21
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/02 03:54:52
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot
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Okay, so what seems like the best solution to illegal immigration to me so far:
1. Don't let illegal immigrants claim food stamps, welfare, or similar benefits (note: how much they can actually do so right now is contested, this may largely be a non-issue)
2. Crack down on employers who hire illegal immigrants (or employers who pay their employees under the table regardless; if the immigrants are paying taxes they sound sort of nice to have around, really)
3. Make it easier to enter the country legally (as far as I know, there are virtually no spots open for a Mexican immigrant who doesn't have any family in the United States, and doesn't have any unique skills. And even when things are better it can take fifteen years to get citizenship. We're eventually going to end up keeping out all of the people who actually have respect for American immigration law, which is surely as unfair as letting in those who don't have any respect for it, right?)
4. Something about the drug cartels (their relation to illegal immigration seems similar to the relationship between tax evaders and Al Capone, really.)
5. Get rid of minimum wage (possibly replacing it with some sort of tax-financed income for the employed poor, if you're concerned they'll suffer for it). Mostly because I hate minimum wage for reasons unrelated to immigration, but it would help to put illegal immigrants on equal footing with legal workers too.
6. Possibly get rid of citizenship for everyone born on U.S. soil. This unlikely to feasible politically, however, as it requires a constitutional amendment to be made to the 14th. If this was done, it would probably be best to allow a person born on U.S. soil to stay in the U.S. indefinitely without citizenship (since that's where they've been their whole life).
Most of these require action from the federal government.
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Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/02 04:37:48
Subject: Re:What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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Wrexasaur wrote:Kanluwen wrote:The point is:
This law is ENTIRELY ridiculous. It's racial profiling at its very core.
Being Hispanic in Arizona might be pretty crappy for a while...
I'd just like to say, as an AZ native, that most of the americans of mexican descent I know (which is quite a few) are 100% behind this law. They're just as fed up with illegals as anyone else.
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/02 04:55:16
Subject: Re:What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Lord of the Fleet
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Lordhat wrote:
I'd just like to say, as an AZ native, that most of the americans of mexican descent I know (which is quite a few) are 100% behind this law. They're just as fed up with illegals as anyone else.
At least until they're rounded up and deported by 'mistake'.
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Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/02 04:55:19
Subject: What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?
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Charging Dragon Prince
Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
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How many times do I have to say it? YOU ARE ALL ILLEGAL!
Plenty of legal people break laws and take handouts.
People are people.
At least these people are willing to work for a job that needs doing instead of sitting on their fat butts with their unemployment or SSI check watching their satellite TV in a trailer park.
mmm... I want some taco bell now.
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Retroactively applied infallability is its own reward. I wish I knew this years ago.
 I am Red/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today! <small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>I'm both chaotic and orderly. I value my own principles, and am willing to go to extreme lengths to enforce them, often trampling on the very same principles in the process. At best, I'm heroic and principled; at worst, I'm hypocritical and disorderly. |
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