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Trasvi wrote:I'm sure I'll get ridiculed by you gun-lovers, but...
Is it possible that if no-one had guns, you wouldn't get into this bad situation in the first place?
Where I live, in Australia, there are very few gun-related crimes. Most are the province of organised bike gangs. Armed robbery and assault is rare. Home break-ins are done during the day whilst the home owners are at work.
For protection, I keep a maglite next to my bed - its 20" of steel and also doubles as a torch! The house has monitored perimeter sensors, so that if someone DOES break a window or open a door, an alarm will sound and the police will be notified instantly.


The mentality in Australia when hearing about the gun-related crime in America is simply 'if no-one had a gun, there would be no problem'.

Number one, you're assuming all "gun lovers" are using their arms for defense, and that they agree on castle doctrine. As you can see from my posts, that isnt necessarily true.

Furthermore, if they made every firearm illegal in the US tomorrow, they wouldn't disappear. Firearms have always been present in the US, and there were no national laws regulating them until 1935, and none with any real impact for most people until 1969. I don't know if there is any proof those laws initiated a drop in crime, or even gun crime. I think people are going to have to have community values if there is going to be a drop in such things.

My understanding is that you can still get a gun in Australia, though they've gotten more restrictive as of late.

Most importantly, why should I have to surrender my pistol that I enjoy shooting because of someone else doing something wrong?

Frazzled wrote:Thats great for you. I have a wife and kids, what is she to do? Get real.

And your refusal to look beyond guns as a solution for protection is childish

Squig_herder wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Thats great for you. I have a wife and kids, what is she to do? Get real.

And your refusal to look beyond guns as a solution for protection is childish

I don't think Fraz has implied at any point that his only option for protection is a firearm.

What alternatives do you see that would ensure the safety of everyone in the house, Squig_herder?

That is the ultimate goal.

Gitzbitah wrote:What alternatives do you see that would ensure the safety of everyone in the house, Squig_herder?

That is the ultimate goal.

There are other ones, but I think a firearm is a legitimate addition if someone is trained and understands the massive responsibility.

Squig_herder wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Thats great for you. I have a wife and kids, what is she to do? Get real.

And your refusal to look beyond guns as a solution for protection is childish

So what would you do brainicac?

Frazzled wrote:

Squig_herder wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Thats great for you. I have a wife and kids, what is she to do? Get real.

And your refusal to look beyond guns as a solution for protection is childish

So what would you do brainicac?

I just got an image of John Wayne in a western bar setting down his whiskey and asking that question.

Im not sure about in Texas, but in Louisiana our 500 acres is surrounded by a fence, and it is posted every 100 yards or so with no trespassing signs, as well as at every gate. From what I understand if someone trespasses you are allowed to escort them off your property by whatever means necessary, if they get violent or have a weapon, you can react accordingly. Course with 500 acres id just call the cops and watch from a distance. Unless they were shooting the cows or something.

Thats assuming that dogs on the property dont get a hold of them first.

Grignard wrote:Frazz, what does your state law say about use of force and fenced property posted with no trespass signs? In your state, if you break or circumvent a fence onto posted private property, what does the law say about that as it relates to castle doctrine.

For those who haven't been to Texas, some of these fences are very substatial because they're used to control the movement of very agile game. Its called high fence.

Whether or not I agree with their laws regarding force and property, I envy the hunting in Texas. They have all sorts of weird stuff down there. If there is some sort of meat you want to eat, odds are you can acquire it in Texas.

Even long pig?

ShivanAngel wrote:Im not sure about in Texas, but in Louisiana our 500 acres is surrounded by a fence, and it is posted every 100 yards or so with no trespassing signs, as well as at every gate. From what I understand if someone trespasses you are allowed to escort them off your property by whatever means necessary, if they get violent or have a weapon, you can react accordingly. Course with 500 acres id just call the cops and watch from a distance. Unless they were shooting the cows or something.

Thats assuming that dogs on the property dont get a hold of them first.

When a family friend had a problem with poachers he just called the game warden, though he had quite a few hunting weapons. I was more curious if in Texas, or anywhere for that matter, you could use force solely because they crossed a posted fence, or if you had to tell them to leave first and only respond to a physical threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Even long pig?

I think you can only trophy hunt that

Grignard wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:Im not sure about in Texas, but in Louisiana our 500 acres is surrounded by a fence, and it is posted every 100 yards or so with no trespassing signs, as well as at every gate. From what I understand if someone trespasses you are allowed to escort them off your property by whatever means necessary, if they get violent or have a weapon, you can react accordingly. Course with 500 acres id just call the cops and watch from a distance. Unless they were shooting the cows or something.

Thats assuming that dogs on the property dont get a hold of them first.

When a family friend had a problem with poachers he just called the game warden, though he had quite a few hunting weapons. I was more curious if in Texas, or anywhere for that matter, you could use force solely because they crossed a posted fence, or if you had to tell them to leave first and only respond to a physical threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Even long pig?

I think you can only trophy hunt that

IIRC the signs posted on the property are the only "warning" they get.

ShivanAngel wrote:

Grignard wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:Im not sure about in Texas, but in Louisiana our 500 acres is surrounded by a fence, and it is posted every 100 yards or so with no trespassing signs, as well as at every gate. From what I understand if someone trespasses you are allowed to escort them off your property by whatever means necessary, if they get violent or have a weapon, you can react accordingly. Course with 500 acres id just call the cops and watch from a distance. Unless they were shooting the cows or something.

Thats assuming that dogs on the property dont get a hold of them first.

When a family friend had a problem with poachers he just called the game warden, though he had quite a few hunting weapons. I was more curious if in Texas, or anywhere for that matter, you could use force solely because they crossed a posted fence, or if you had to tell them to leave first and only respond to a physical threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Even long pig?

I think you can only trophy hunt that

IIRC the signs posted on the property are the only "warning" they get.

See, thats the part I don't agree with if that is actually the case. I have no problem if someone has a weapon when you encounter them and starts making threatening gestures. That is different.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Grignard wrote:Frazz, what does your state law say about use of force and fenced property posted with no trespass signs? In your state, if you break or circumvent a fence onto posted private property, what does the law say about that as it relates to castle doctrine.

For those who haven't been to Texas, some of these fences are very substatial because they're used to control the movement of very agile game. Its called high fence.

Whether or not I agree with their laws regarding force and property, I envy the hunting in Texas. They have all sorts of weird stuff down there. If there is some sort of meat you want to eat, odds are you can acquire it in Texas.

Even long pig?

Where do you think Taco Bell gets their meat?

Tresspassing-no you can't blast away. There's lots of case law on it. The castle doctrine is generally restricted to the house.
Note: none of this applies applies to women folk, who are protected under the "he needed killin' your honor" case law and can blast away at errant menfolk anywhere, anytime (at least thats what the wife tells me). Don't ever, ever mess with Texas women...

Hank Williams Jr, Texas Women Lyrics
Looking for Hank Williams Jr tabs and chords? Browse alphabet (above).

Artist: Williams Hank Jr
Song: Texas Women
Album: Greatest Hits Hank Williams Jr Sheet Music
Hank Williams Jr CDs


Send “Texas Women” Ringtone to Cell Phone

I've got some fond memories of San Angelo,
and I've seen some beauty queens in El Paso,
but the best lookin women that I've ever seen,
have all been in Texas and all wearin jeans

Chorus:
I'm a country plowboy, not an urban cowboy,
and I dont ride bulls but I have fought some men,
drive a pickup truck,
trust in God and luck and I live to love Texas women.

I thought I'd seen beauty in faraway places,
till I looked upon those Houston faces,
spent Hollywood nights up in Beverly Hills,
but they werent nothin like one night down in BROWNSVILLE

Repeat Chorus

I'm a pretty fair judge of the opposite sex,
and I aint seen nothin that will touch em' yet,
they may be from Waco or out in Lampassas,
but one thing about it they all come from Texas.

Repeat Chorus

I'm an Oiler fan not a soccer man,
and my arms are red and so is my blood,
and they make it boil with that soft Texas drawl and I love em all,
Texas women.

Grignard wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:

Grignard wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:Im not sure about in Texas, but in Louisiana our 500 acres is surrounded by a fence, and it is posted every 100 yards or so with no trespassing signs, as well as at every gate. From what I understand if someone trespasses you are allowed to escort them off your property by whatever means necessary, if they get violent or have a weapon, you can react accordingly. Course with 500 acres id just call the cops and watch from a distance. Unless they were shooting the cows or something.

Thats assuming that dogs on the property dont get a hold of them first.

When a family friend had a problem with poachers he just called the game warden, though he had quite a few hunting weapons. I was more curious if in Texas, or anywhere for that matter, you could use force solely because they crossed a posted fence, or if you had to tell them to leave first and only respond to a physical threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Even long pig?

I think you can only trophy hunt that

IIRC the signs posted on the property are the only "warning" they get.

See, thats the part I don't agree with if that is actually the case. I have no problem if someone has a weapon when you encounter them and starts making threatening gestures. That is different.

I disagree with that, there are warning all over the place. This is private property, do not enter. How stupid do you have to be to ignore those. You are obviously looking for trouble if you do. Though i dont think blasting away at the first sign of someone on your property is warranted.

ShivanAngel wrote:

I disagree with that, there are warning all over the place. This is private property, do not enter. How stupid do you have to be to ignore those. You are obviously looking for trouble if you do. Though i dont think blasting away at the first sign of someone on your property is warranted.

Then I'm not clear at what point you believe your justified in using force in a fence crossing incident.

Grignard wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:

I disagree with that, there are warning all over the place. This is private property, do not enter. How stupid do you have to be to ignore those. You are obviously looking for trouble if you do. Though i dont think blasting away at the first sign of someone on your property is warranted.

Then I'm not clear at what point you believe your justified in using force in a fence crossing incident.

I consider holding them at gunpoint and escorting them off your property force...

If you are talking about actually shooting the guy, if he has a weapon i would probably just lay low and call the cops. If he started shooting cows or horses, thats another story (and law i believe).

ShivanAngel wrote:

Grignard wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:

I disagree with that, there are warning all over the place. This is private property, do not enter. How stupid do you have to be to ignore those. You are obviously looking for trouble if you do. Though i dont think blasting away at the first sign of someone on your property is warranted.

Then I'm not clear at what point you believe your justified in using force in a fence crossing incident.

I consider holding them at gunpoint and escorting them off your property force...

If you are talking about actually shooting the guy, if he has a weapon i would probably just lay low and call the cops. If he started shooting cows or horses, thats another story (and law i believe).

I can partially see that as someone who isn't living in a rural setting doesn't realize that a person's animals might represent the majority of their net worth, and their loss might be unrecoverable.

Considering a full grown cow can net over 1 grand and a good horse can net you many time more that.

Frazzled wrote:So what would you do brainicac?

Well your an adult, you have the internet, you go do some research on protecting your home without firearms, you shouldn't need a teenager to describe to you that a gun isnt the only form of protection.

ShivanAngel wrote:Considering a full grown cow can net over 1 grand and a good horse can net you many time more that.

Yah, that one puts me in a moral conundrum. I can't imagine why someone would enter your property just to start killing farm animals, but I guess it could happen. I would hope it would be some dumb kid with a .22 and the law would get there and show the kid the error of his ways, but I could see something like that getting very nasty, regardless of what the law says.

That, admittingly very unlikely, case would not be a matter of luxury goods or even a beloved pet, but that could seriously affect a man's ability to get by.

Kind of like taking 100k out of someone's retirement and burning it.

Squig_herder wrote:

Frazzled wrote:So what would you do brainicac?

Well your an adult, you have the internet, you go do some research on protecting your home without firearms, you shouldn't need a teenager to describe to you that a gun isnt the only form of protection.

So the answer to how a woman is going to protect herself and her kids is "I don't have a clue." Gotcha.

Squig_herder wrote:

Frazzled wrote:So what would you do brainicac?

Well your an adult, you have the internet, you go do some research on protecting your home without firearms, you shouldn't need a teenager to describe to you that a gun isnt the only form of protection.

Sure, there are alarm systems, safe rooms, telephones, chemical spray, baseball bats, shotguns loaded with rock salt, etc.

I think you're statement sort of implies you can have one but none of the others. Why not have an alarm, and if someone has a gun for defense also thats their responsibility and business.

Grignard wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:Considering a full grown cow can net over 1 grand and a good horse can net you many time more that.

Yah, that one puts me in a moral conundrum. I can't imagine why someone would enter your property just to start killing farm animals, but I guess it could happen. I would hope it would be some dumb kid with a .22 and the law would get there and show the kid the error of his ways, but I could see something like that getting very nasty, regardless of what the law says.

That, admittingly very unlikely, case would not be a matter of luxury goods or even a beloved pet, but that could seriously affect a man's ability to get by.

Kind of like taking 100k out of someone's retirement and burning it.

I think thats two separate issues, although related.

Simple trespass with no harm is one issue. Trespass harming livestock or others fall into multiple categories, all of which will result in farmer Bob blowing your to hell.

I accept that people have a right to use tools. It is kind of in our nature, and what makes us capable of doing things. Personally I prefer not even thinking about personal protection, as you never know what can happen, and I have a much greater chance of being killed by a car with a bad driver than in a random shooting.

I don't need protection because I don't have enemies out to get me. However I have done some sport shooting picking bottles off a tree with my friend's old WW2 rifle and yeah it's a fun afternoon. Of course we weren't trying to shoot at anyone, but then again, neither was Dick 'the dick' Cheney when he blew half of his buddies face off (assumption... maybe he was trying to).

My take on guns is that everyone should have the right to have one, but everyone should also have the right to not feel they need one based on the propeganda of a paranoid society.

America is by nature a paranoid society. That is not an insult, just an observation. I can think of countless circumstances where guns have caused harm, and people's need to have one to feel safe have caused unnecessary injury or death. Just go to New York and ride the subway and you will see how suspicious everybody is of everybody else. Nobody talks to anybody, and there's 90 people in the subway car all too scared to just chat with a stranger, because they are scared the stranger might think they are crazy or dangerous and the stranger might have a gun.

It is not a healthy way of going about life being scared of everyone. I get myself in situations all the time where someoone may be beligerant or aggressive towards me and I think it is much easier to use common sense and rationality and use words instead of feeling threatened and feeling I need a deadly weapon. In some sense, I believe the use of a weapon to enfore your will is just cowardice. If you cannot get the results you want through violence, you are not being violent enough! That is not a mentality I believe we ought to live by.

Just the other day I heard this hick redneck at the local hole-in-wall bar bragging to his buddy that he "blasted a groundhog from his moving truck". Is this really something to be proud of? Sometimes I think maybe we've just seen too many action movies and grown up with John Wayne one-liners in our cultural identity.

Ultimately, ownership of any kind of weapon is kind of an act of cowardice and bad judgement. If human relations have to be reduced to an act of overbearing violence for people to get their way then we, as a whole, are just as bad as baboons. Nothing against baboons, they're just stupid and violent.

Most conversations can be resolved by communication. Being in a position where you feel you have to threaten someone with violence in order to "get your way" means you are simply not a good communicator.

Those "home security system" commercials further spread the paranoia of our culture, as did old rap videos, cowboy movies, war movies.

Yeah, I frequently have random guys in black masks smashing the window of my front door so they can get in and menace me, sure. Never happened to me before, but those commercials (probably written by the same people who sell you on 5 star safety ratings on the minivan you have to buy if you love your kids) seem to make it clear that the ENEMY IS EVERYWHERE SO YOU MUST BUY OUR PRODUCT TO DEFEND YOURSELF.

Maybe I'm naive and will end up getting gunned down for lack of personal defense, but I highly doubt it.

I own a wakazashi sword and a crowbar. The former I like because it is a work of art, which I have no intention of using on another person. The latter, I use it as a tool. It is, however not far from my mind that I could take someones skull apart if I needed to. Most people will never in their life need weapons. Shooting arrows at a target with a bow, or hunting for your own food, or pistol ranges can all be fun if that is the intention of ownership of the tool. Keeping it for paranoia purposes is becoming a product of the fear culture who sells it to you, and also causes violent acts to happens by making them in the first place.

Putting it in perspective though, if we didn't have guns we would use swords, if we didn't have swords we would use sticks, if we didn't have sticks we would use rocks... etc. The problem isn't the tool, just the engrained human condition encouraging dominance. Owning a gun is an act of saying "I WILL get my way or I can kill you". That's not an American problem, that's a human problem.

Frazzled wrote:So the answer to how a woman is going to protect herself and her kids is "I don't have a clue." Gotcha.

I find it ironic that an adult is asking a teenager on how to protect his family without the use of a gun, or is the humour lost on some?

It really depends on how far you want to go with your home protection, we could go laminated polycarbonate for your windows [bullet resistant, stops up to 30 calibre if i remember correctly], Structural Grade 304 stainless steel doors [knife resistant and force resistant], safe room and many more ideas, but a simple google on your end would produce the same results.

Guitardian wrote:

I own a wakazashi sword and a crowbar. The former I like because it is a work of art, which I have no intention of using on another person. The latter, I use it as a tool. It is, however not far from my mind that I could take someones skull apart if I needed to.

Son, you've just taken your first step into a larger universe. There are at least 3 zombie threads going, with your name on them. Welcome to the Zombie Games!

Squig_herder wrote:

Frazzled wrote:So the answer to how a woman is going to protect herself and her kids is "I don't have a clue." Gotcha.

I find it ironic that an adult is asking a teenager on how to protect his family without the use of a gun, or is the humour lost on some?

I think I see your confusion, Squig_herder. We are not talking about ways of securing your home- that's more in the Zombie Attack! thread. We're talking about what your options are if someone is inside your house, having broken through whatever passive defenses that you have in place.

If you walk into the middle of a 13+ page thread and declare a response childish, be prepared to offer alternatives. That's called a conversation.

So, someone has broken into your home, against the odds, and through your space-age security materials- what now?

Squig_herder wrote:

Frazzled wrote:So the answer to how a woman is going to protect herself and her kids is "I don't have a clue." Gotcha.

I find it ironic that an adult is asking a teenager on how to protect his family without the use of a gun, or is the humour lost on some?

It really depends on how far you want to go with your home protection, we could go laminated polycarbonate for your windows [bullet resistant, stops up to 30 calibre if i remember correctly], Structural Grade 304 stainless steel doors [knife resistant and force resistant], safe room and many more ideas, but a simple google on your end would produce the same results.

1. You brought the point up.
2. So a person who isn't made of money to James Bondize their house is SOL? I'll keep my firearms and my opinion then thanks.
If you have access to firearms then you should avail yourself of them for protective purposes.

Grignard wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:Considering a full grown cow can net over 1 grand and a good horse can net you many time more that.

Yah, that one puts me in a moral conundrum. I can't imagine why someone would enter your property just to start killing farm animals, but I guess it could happen. I would hope it would be some dumb kid with a .22 and the law would get there and show the kid the error of his ways, but I could see something like that getting very nasty, regardless of what the law says.

That, admittingly very unlikely, case would not be a matter of luxury goods or even a beloved pet, but that could seriously affect a man's ability to get by.

Kind of like taking 100k out of someone's retirement and burning it.

You would be surprised how often it happens, you go to the farm to check on things and theres a dead cow with a bullet hole or 10 in it. Some people are just crazy.