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ph34r wrote:Kilkrazy posts really weird pictures of asian girls and Frazzled posts like the crazy mod uncle. Someone's gotta keep moderation "interesting".

When you become a mod, you get to pick one really annoying posting style and flaunt it as your trademark.

Omegus wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:<some asian girl making an ugly dumbass face>

What's the deal with you and pictures of asian girls making ugly dumbass faces?

Fetterkey wrote:

ph34r wrote:Kilkrazy posts really weird pictures of asian girls and Frazzled posts like the crazy mod uncle. Someone's gotta keep moderation "interesting".

When you become a mod, you get to pick one really annoying posting style and flaunt it as your trademark.

In that case I'm going to swear a lot. A lot.

Sidstyler wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:<some asian girl making an ugly dumbass face>

What's the deal with you and pictures of asian girls making ugly dumbass faces?

Suggesting that asian girls don't make "ugly dumbass faces" like everyone else is in fact racist!



Oh sheesh what were we talking about? Finecast? Wayland? Crazy mods?



Stay on target....

Call me a kiss ass, but those Asian girls are cute, and I for one require at least one picture a day......for medicinal purposes.

That last chick is very cute indeed.

...and suddenly, harmony was restored in the thread.

Ouze wrote:

The heat issue, I dunno. 2 anonymous people on the internets is kinda meaningless to me. The fact that you leave a mini in a car on a hot day and it gets ruined is not in my mind is not necessarily a problem. Dogs, ice cream, and minis all shouldn't be left in a car on a hot day for any amount of time.

I'd hazard the folks saying that dont leave in areas that heat IS a problem. Anytime in say, Texas where the temp gets to 105 pretty easily, hotter in the car. If you have to go somewhere for any amount of time and stick them in the trunk.....

Wow a company that cares about its own customers shocking . Gust stop this new dangerous trend .

carmachu wrote:

Ouze wrote:

The heat issue, I dunno. 2 anonymous people on the internets is kinda meaningless to me. The fact that you leave a mini in a car on a hot day and it gets ruined is not in my mind is not necessarily a problem. Dogs, ice cream, and minis all shouldn't be left in a car on a hot day for any amount of time.

I'd hazard the folks saying that dont leave in areas that heat IS a problem. Anytime in say, Texas where the temp gets to 105 pretty easily, hotter in the car. If you have to go somewhere for any amount of time and stick them in the trunk.....

Considering we have people who spend dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars have been spent on science rolling of dice... You would think *someone* would be motivated enough to go tot he store, buy a 30$ model and attempt to 'melt' it under some scientific experiments mythbusters style.

If you really believe in Failcast, then become the next hero by proving that failcast in your car melts like a box of crayons. If it was really this easy, show every one of the scenarios and see what happens.

*left on a sunny window ledge
*under a display case direct lamp
*Left in a hot car in the middle of summer:
-inside your trunk in a case
-inside your back seat (direct sun) in a case
-Directly exposed in your car


Who is gonna go Mr. Wizard and prove this myth stuff? or is just making it up and repeating it ad nasuium good enough for science?

As I suggested when Finecast was released
use some sprue to do some tests.

I cannot as I don't have any to test and am not paying good money to find out.

nkelsch wrote:[
or is just making it up and repeating it ad nasuium good enough for science?

Sigh... 36 degress here today... call it a lie, or imaginative fabrication whatever... I'm just not willing to spend stupid money on a miniature that I have to resculpt half of it and then paint it to then be constantly dodging the sun just because I don't want to potentially ruin my time and money investment... thats a hassle I don't have with any other companies.

Funny how everything is a lie... I tell you what you keep spending money on finecast and I will just wait for a revised product... lie or not I'm just not interested in burning money to check it out in the flesh, Ill leave that to you and the people who buy the stuff...

I collect , nids and gobbos and those are not 1 or 2 finecasts...

Pael wrote:

OK well besides that you really do not understand statistics its all fine. They made a point estimate based on a sample size of 60. You do not need to know the population size to get a reasonable estimates and confidence intervals. It doesn't matter if they sample 1% or 20% the confidence interval remains the same. Just FYI

What are you talking about? Ever heard of a confidence interval calculator? Two numbers 95% and 99% confidence can be decided by the sample size taken based on the population size.

To back up my point http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm

@ancientsociety Thanks for breaking it down for me. I totally missed the fact that it isn't Wayland games responsibilty to QC GW but then why did they? hmmmm Looks like they bit off more than they could chew with making a statment of "For your information, we sampled and then assessed 60 sealed blisters with 30 taken at random from each of two deliveries of stock. Failures were 17 (57%) of 30 and 16 (53%) of 30, making 33 (55%) of 60 in total." Quoted from OP.

Ok, someone might have already addressed this, but I don't have the patience to let this stand for 15 more pages without being corrected.

You are REALLY wrong on your stats. Conveniently, the link you provided even demonstrates why.

"This means that a sample of 500 people is equally useful in examining the opinions of a state of 15,000,000 as it would a city of 100,000"

Using the tool they provided, a sample size of 60 gives a range of 55 +/-12.59 at 95% confident no matter what the population size is. (If you give a very large one or leave it blank it even ignores it.) So you can be 95% confident that between 32% and 68% of the entire population are defective enough to fall into Wayland's "return this" pile, assuming they really did do a random sample of 30. Doesn't matter if they ordered 600 or 60,000 models.

The population size has nearly zero bearing on your confidence intervals unless your sample is a moderately large percentage of your population, and even then as sample size approaches population size the interval just gets smaller, i.e. more accurate.

So Wayland's numbers are just fine, and not misleading at all. You can argue that their definition of "unsellable" is so broad as to be meaningless, but their statistics are sound.

Thanks for the link to that site, by the way. That's a useful little calculator, and the description is useful for folks who don't know much stat. I suggest you read it a few times.

nkelsch wrote:

carmachu wrote:

Ouze wrote:

The heat issue, I dunno. 2 anonymous people on the internets is kinda meaningless to me. The fact that you leave a mini in a car on a hot day and it gets ruined is not in my mind is not necessarily a problem. Dogs, ice cream, and minis all shouldn't be left in a car on a hot day for any amount of time.

I'd hazard the folks saying that dont leave in areas that heat IS a problem. Anytime in say, Texas where the temp gets to 105 pretty easily, hotter in the car. If you have to go somewhere for any amount of time and stick them in the trunk.....

Considering we have people who spend dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars have been spent on science rolling of dice... You would think *someone* would be motivated enough to go tot he store, buy a 30$ model and attempt to 'melt' it under some scientific experiments mythbusters style.

If you really believe in Failcast, then become the next hero by proving that failcast in your car melts like a box of crayons. If it was really this easy, show every one of the scenarios and see what happens.

*left on a sunny window ledge
*under a display case direct lamp
*Left in a hot car in the middle of summer:
-inside your trunk in a case
-inside your back seat (direct sun) in a case
-Directly exposed in your car


Who is gonna go Mr. Wizard and prove this myth stuff? or is just making it up and repeating it ad nasuium good enough for science?

If people pitched in, I would be willing to purchase a Failcrap model just so we could see if it melted.

or just use some sprue?

I'd love to help out. But sadly I don't own a car, and whilst it's beautiful today, living in England the weather is pretty crappy for the most part, and my flat doesn't get the Sun. Big massive trees ring the graveyard, preventing direct sunlight hitting my living room.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Vlad...nice way to unfortunately invalidate your opinion. Seeing as you don't actually own any, I do wonder exactly what your conclusions are based on? Hearsay? Chinese Whispers? Wishful Thinking?

I'd love to help out. But sadly I don't own a car, and whilst it's beautiful today, living in England the weather is pretty crappy for the most part, and my flat doesn't get the Sun. Big massive trees ring the graveyard, preventing direct sunlight hitting my living room.

Ah this explains why you are such a morbid, miserable ....
hang on, I also live in a house that doesn't get the Sun. Big massive trees ring the graveyard,

*dolorous peel of a bell*

I'm kind of your archetypal Goth, minus the maudalin nature and make up.

Plus, come the Zombie Apocalypse, I'm stuffed!

Mr Mystery wrote:I'd love to help out. But sadly I don't own a car, and whilst it's beautiful today, living in England the weather is pretty crappy for the most part, and my flat doesn't get the Sun.

You get a better class of newspaper instead?

Newspaper, no. But I am a subscriber to White Dwarf, Fortean Times AND 2000AD.

You could burn those under a mini, see if it melts

On the positive side of living in a gloomy place like Eyeore is that in those occassional very hot (by Britsish standards) summer days the house is lovely and cool wothout recourse to air conditoning

And there is no chance of wilting the Finecast models!

nkelsch wrote:
Considering we have people who spend dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars have been spent on science rolling of dice... You would think *someone* would be motivated enough to go tot he store, buy a 30$ model and attempt to 'melt' it under some scientific experiments mythbusters style.

Most people that are on the negative side of fine cast arent willing to spend money on it to try. Folks on the positive side of finecast arent going to put their stuff at risk.

Seen enough to know not to put it in heat, but not like I was getting some anyway.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:On the positive side of living in a gloomy place like Eyeore is that in those occassional very hot (by Britsish standards) summer days the house is lovely and cool wothout recourse to air conditoning

And there is no chance of wilting the Finecast models!

Cabinet at my local GW hasn't melta any Finecast, and that gets scorchingly hot. Right next to the till it is. Where I used to cash up. My oh my that got stupidly hot, even around 6p.m.!

NAVARRO wrote:

nkelsch wrote:[
or is just making it up and repeating it ad nasuium good enough for science?

Sigh... 36 degress here today... call it a lie, or imaginative fabrication whatever... I'm just not willing to spend stupid money on a miniature that I have to resculpt half of it and then paint it to then be constantly dodging the sun just because I don't want to potentially ruin my time and money investment... thats a hassle I don't have with any other companies.

Funny how everything is a lie... I tell you what you keep spending money on finecast and I will just wait for a revised product... lie or not I'm just not interested in burning money to check it out in the flesh, Ill leave that to you and the people who buy the stuff...

You might not, but someone else might be willing. Someone was willing to prove rounded dice roll 30% 1s (or at least make an attempt to). If Finecast really did melt easily due to casual exposure to common tempatures, then I think it would be easy to prove, and the way people on the internet love fighting and being right, it would be IMHO a good way to settle it or at least back their claim.

I am not convinced that this stuff will melt or disfigure by casually being exposed to 110 degree tempature or less, but if it did, I would actually like to know it so I would know my finecast needed to be taken out of my car the same way I don't leave electronics in my car (I work in IT and have seen lots of people leave laptops in subfreezing cars and ruin the LCD screen.)

I don't think you need to be an apologist to want to see actual evidence if this stuff melts the way people claim... I think knowing the truth would be good for all opposed to the myth of a heat boogeyman out to gobble up my Gandalf.

I'm sure all the "apologists" (for lack of a better term) have heaps of leftover Finecast sprue they could experiment on.

ph34r wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:<some asian girl making an ugly dumbass face>

What's the deal with you and pictures of asian girls making ugly dumbass faces?

Kilkrazy posts really weird pictures of asian girls and Frazzled posts like the crazy mod uncle. Someone's gotta keep moderation "interesting".

Frazzled is the one that posts all the pictures of dachshunds? Dachshunds are a superior life form, so that's cool. Asian girls making chipmunk faces are nowhere near as "interesting", and bespeak of Kilkrazy's no doubt disturbing fetishes. I mean, you can't really compare this:



to this:




Although the last one Kilkrazy posted was pretty cute.

Hey man. Just an aside....apologists are noted for altering facts, or putting a different spin on it.

As the owner of several Finecast models, with very few problems to speak of, how is it that I wind up the apologist, next to those who don't own any?

nkelsch wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:

nkelsch wrote:[
or is just making it up and repeating it ad nasuium good enough for science?

Sigh... 36 degress here today... call it a lie, or imaginative fabrication whatever... I'm just not willing to spend stupid money on a miniature that I have to resculpt half of it and then paint it to then be constantly dodging the sun just because I don't want to potentially ruin my time and money investment... thats a hassle I don't have with any other companies.

Funny how everything is a lie... I tell you what you keep spending money on finecast and I will just wait for a revised product... lie or not I'm just not interested in burning money to check it out in the flesh, Ill leave that to you and the people who buy the stuff...

You might not, but someone else might be willing. Someone was willing to prove rounded dice roll 30% 1s (or at least make an attempt to). If Finecast really did melt easily due to casual exposure to common tempatures, then I think it would be easy to prove, and the way people on the internet love fighting and being right, it would be IMHO a good way to settle it or at least back their claim.

I am not convinced that this stuff will melt or disfigure by casually being exposed to 110 degree tempature or less, but if it did, I would actually like to know it so I would know my finecast needed to be taken out of my car the same way I don't leave electronics in my car (I work in IT and have seen lots of people leave laptops in subfreezing cars and ruin the LCD screen.)

I don't think you need to be an apologist to want to see actual evidence if this stuff melts the way people claim... I think knowing the truth would be good for all opposed to the myth of a heat boogeyman out to gobble up my Gandalf.

You can supposedly BEND them under hot water. Are you joking here? There is no mythbusters here- You heat them up, they're going to bend. You continue to expose them to heat- they will melt.

You are supposed to be able to "Fix bent weapons with running them under the HOT water, or use the hair dryer method...". (This is from GW themselves, by the way.) The next obvious thing that would happen is that you WILL melt them with exposure to heat. Finecrap is lighter then plastic. It doesn't hold the same meltpoints as plastic does- Why would anyone think that it did? where does that even come into the conversation?

They're made out of plexible plesin, what exactly would you think would happen?

Anyone who says otherwise is not even being realistic here and is engaging in wishful thinking. Thats not even in the conversation here.

Seriously? You heat something up... and it won't melt? Where does that happen again?


If you don't want to "believe" it? Hey thats fine- you can chalk that up there with the favorable pictures of Fine crap that supposedly exist as well.

Sidstyler wrote:

The new material allows more detailed

Personally I think that has yet to be proven. They only really look more detailed because of the way light hits the material, the edges on metal look softer or rounder than they really are. From the examples I've seen of primed models the difference between metal and Finecast is almost unnoticeable. Or rather it would be, if the Finecast model wasn't covered in bubbles that made it a dead give away.

I assemble and paint a LOT of models, resin, plastic and metal. Besides my own personal armies, I do commission work as well.

I have examined several fine cast models personally, out of the blister under magnification and with the naked eye.
I directly compared them to the same models in metal (un primed and unpainted).

I can say the fine cast models were of finer detail than their metal counterparts, without a doubt.
* the edges were all finer - they came to a sharper point.
* the recesses had more detail and were much more crisp in their depth and contrast.

I only found very minor flaws in the cast, and would rate it overall on par or better than a good quality forgeworld cast.
(I say good forgeworld cast, as I have encountered many bad (usually mold shifted) forgeworld casts).

Note: I did not buy any finecast, and do not plan to at any time, there were minis a friend of mine brought by for me to examine.

Again, this is not the "lighting' nor trick photography.

On the "primered" comment, I primer a LOT of minis....and have to say, if you observe models which have lost that much detail, I would suggest to the person who primed them (who ever showed them to you) to switch to a different primer immediately, for not only are they losing detail on their finecast minis, they are undoubtedly losing details on their plastics as well.

Personally, I suggest:
* armory brand - for medium quality work.
* tamaya white through an airbrush for higher quality work
* allclad grey primer through an airbrush for higher quality work.

note on the allclad - this stuff is so fine, it requires a SIGNIFICANT amount of ventilation - it literally comes out more like a fog. It is very expensive, but produces amazing results.
Most of my clients are willing to spend the extra cost on it (or allclad black, which is almost as fine, but gloss black).

So finally in conclusion; While I do not support GW's business practices, and I think that their quality control issues are indicative of greater management issues embedded within their corporate culture, I can say the finecast models that I have seen are indeed more detailed.

Dave Pak