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Prodigalson wrote:and honestly I don't see how they can make that codex worse.
Yes, it could. In fact, When 5th edition first came out, Tyranids were far worse off than they currently are. At least now we have catalyst and hive guard under the latest codex.
What makes you say that? They had Warriors which could be individually kitted out like Nobz, and they were immune to Instant Death. They also had more useful carnifexes with a lot more options. I'd say the old codex was at least on the same level as the current one.
IMO, largely the two items I mentioned. Catalyst and Hive Guard.
Spoiler:
In 5th with the 4th edition codex, nids lacked any reliable anti tank guns that could open up transports prior to the assualt phase. VC: -2 on damage chart and could be deflected by cover. DS (Wariors): Low strength (Str 6) and could be deflected by cover. Devourers (carnies): Low strength, -1 on damage chart, and could be deflected by cover. Therefore nid players, such as myself, had to almost exclusively rely on genestealers, which were more expensive at the time, to open transports up in H2H. Then the stealer squad would get wiped during the players turn by the disembarked infantry. It seemed to be largely a lose-lose situation and an uphill battle simply to get a draw.
Now we have Hive Guard: High strength, no negative modifiers on the damage chart, and can ignore some cases of cover. So we are not exclusively relying on genestealers to open up transports. On the other hand, when genestealers do attack a transport in H2H, catalyst helps them survive the following firestorm.
There are other beneficial items in the newer codex: MC with fleet, MC that produce scoring units, Warrior Primes that can grant cover saves to carnies, and cheaper, infiltrating genestealers. But there are some strong detractions as well: Horribly overpriced MCs and lack of EW.
Still, IMO the gains in the newer codex outweigh the detractions... at least in 5th "We Spam Mech" Edition. It's an uphill battle, but at least it feels like I have a chance of scoring a victory.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/18 16:19:52
docbrown wrote:
for what it takes to get decent markerlight quantity its kind of a problem. Not to mention that its quite easy to kill whatever brings them.
Tau shoot 16% better than orks thats ridiculus.
As for the first statement, you leave out stealth marker teams. They're not hard to keep alive, and if you're only really using them to boost BS, they can give you enough lights.
As for the second, it's just plain wrong. They shoot 50% better than orks, or, to turn it around, orks shoot 66% as well as them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/18 21:54:09
The bureacracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding Bureaucracy
-Oscar Wilde
On discussing this last night, I'm actually hoping Tau remain without different weapons options in FW squads in their next book. The idea of the race is that each part is a cog in the machine of the whole. Each unit supports each other unit. FW are in a long range anti-infantry role (Which they do very well) You use suits and vehicles to fulfill other roles. What I would actually like to see in the next book is an exacerbation of that mindset, to the point that the Tau Empire functions like Menoth does in Warmachine.
In order to beat Menoth, you have to pick apart an overlapping group of synergies that are very powerful in order to beat the army. Once that is done, the army crumbles, but a properly constructed list can cover it's weaknesses well (with the remaining Achilles Heel, of course, of Assault). In the Menoth list, the overlapping Synergies will ALWAYS have a lynchpin: a single target that must be taken out first in order to disassemble the list. The difficulty is that this vulnerable point changes based on how you build your list, but it is always there. A keen opponant can find that point. A newb Tau player may not know how to protect it, or even build a list that harmonizes. They would be hard to get to, but once you got there... Splat. GEqs with worse WS.
Therion wrote:
6th edition lands on June 23rd!
Good news. This is the best time in the hobby. Full of promise. GW lets us down each time and we know it but secretly we're hoping that this is the edition that GW gives us a balanced game that can also be played competitively at tournaments. I'm loving it.
Space Crusader wrote:Nagashek, I keep mistaking your avatar Neferato for Gabe Newell.
It's not Neferato, but Max Schreck as Nosferatu from the famous silent movie of the same name.
The image of which, after so much time as Arnie from "Kindergarten Cop" was the closest one to my VC general of the same name, the mystery shrouded Necrarch master of the Blighted Towers. I'm sorry I've never gotten a chance to see Nosferatu, actually. My original Dakka logon was my Tau general's name. Tau are still my favorite, so I'm hoping for the best here. I think I'll be fine if Ward wrote the rules but stayed the frak away from the fluff.
Therion wrote:
6th edition lands on June 23rd!
Good news. This is the best time in the hobby. Full of promise. GW lets us down each time and we know it but secretly we're hoping that this is the edition that GW gives us a balanced game that can also be played competitively at tournaments. I'm loving it.
SonicPara wrote:I'm still just so wary of getting another outdated codex. I know everyone says that the last several books are designed with the next edition in mind (see Heavy* on the Monolith in the new Necron book) but the Tau have been perpetually screwed with outdated codices immediately before a new edition. As long as GW just makes Tau balanced to hang with the common armies then all is good.
I'd just like to attempt to put your fears to rest. Recently, one of the good things that GW has been doing (not many to choose from though) is they have been making the army books for fantasy that come out right before an edition change worthwhile. Skaven are probably the best army book out right now for 8th-they came out near the tail end of 7th, only beaten by the BoC book-which, admittedly, was a disaster. But Skaven were built with 8th in mind-see Dreaded 13th spell to prove it. And they are definitely ruling the roost. GW has gotten better at this than previous editions. Don't worry-if Tau come out right before 6th, they're built as a 6th edition codex that can function in 5th. Some things may suck until the switchover (like the WTF views on destroyers), but it'll all make sense in 6th.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
march10k wrote:As for the first statement, you leave out stealth marker teams. They're not hard to keep alive, and if you're only really using them to boost BS, they can give you enough lights.
This is true, but a SINGLE SMT (Stealth Marker Team) becomes ungodly expensive VERY quickly!
SonicPara wrote:I'm still just so wary of getting another outdated codex. I know everyone says that the last several books are designed with the next edition in mind (see Heavy* on the Monolith in the new Necron book) but the Tau have been perpetually screwed with outdated codices immediately before a new edition. As long as GW just makes Tau balanced to hang with the common armies then all is good.
I'd just like to attempt to put your fears to rest. Recently, one of the good things that GW has been doing (not many to choose from though) is they have been making the army books for fantasy that come out right before an edition change worthwhile. Skaven are probably the best army book out right now for 8th-they came out near the tail end of 7th, only beaten by the BoC book-which, admittedly, was a disaster. But Skaven were built with 8th in mind-see Dreaded 13th spell to prove it. And they are definitely ruling the roost. GW has gotten better at this than previous editions. Don't worry-if Tau come out right before 6th, they're built as a 6th edition codex that can function in 5th. Some things may suck until the switchover (like the WTF views on destroyers), but it'll all make sense in 6th.
And actually BoC has been pretty strong in 8e also. It's just that it was SO worthless in 7th, very few people have figured that out yet by venturing into the army...
Therion wrote:
6th edition lands on June 23rd!
Good news. This is the best time in the hobby. Full of promise. GW lets us down each time and we know it but secretly we're hoping that this is the edition that GW gives us a balanced game that can also be played competitively at tournaments. I'm loving it.
SonicPara wrote:I'm still just so wary of getting another outdated codex. I know everyone says that the last several books are designed with the next edition in mind (see Heavy* on the Monolith in the new Necron book) but the Tau have been perpetually screwed with outdated codices immediately before a new edition. As long as GW just makes Tau balanced to hang with the common armies then all is good.
I'd just like to attempt to put your fears to rest. Recently, one of the good things that GW has been doing (not many to choose from though) is they have been making the army books for fantasy that come out right before an edition change worthwhile. Skaven are probably the best army book out right now for 8th-they came out near the tail end of 7th, only beaten by the BoC book-which, admittedly, was a disaster. But Skaven were built with 8th in mind-see Dreaded 13th spell to prove it. And they are definitely ruling the roost. GW has gotten better at this than previous editions. Don't worry-if Tau come out right before 6th, they're built as a 6th edition codex that can function in 5th. Some things may suck until the switchover (like the WTF views on destroyers), but it'll all make sense in 6th.
And actually BoC has been pretty strong in 8e also. It's just that it was SO worthless in 7th, very few people have figured that out yet by venturing into the army...
Sorry for as much as they tout interdependence only 1 unit truly serves a non combat role and only missiles attached to vehicles need them to function.
I used to love my pathfinders in small scam games but once it scaled up I found 2k points would be aimed at my poor pathfinders. So I dropped them and formed a homogenous army with no clear targets.
I'd love it if tau were Acctually interdependent but as it stands tau is an army you can use to make a weak unit suck less.
I think you should be able to pay a premium for guys that can function on their own (think upgraded suits), but get much greater effectiveness out of the intelligent use of force multipliers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/19 15:50:03
And Docbrown, I usually find at 2kpts my opponants are far more worried about my railguns than my pathfinders. I got very good at hiding my pathfinders and letting other, actual DAMAGE dealing targets be more available. Also I never buy Seeker missles in any form, as I find the cost utterly rediculous and over costed for the benefit. Every seeker missle bought is one less firewarrior.
Therefore I posit that a) you are using your pathfinders wrong or b) you have been so much more successful with them than I have that your opponants fear your pathfinders more than your railguns. If b), then I recommend still taking them and letting your opponants go on wild goose chases to kill them. I do this with my Etherial. People know that killing it could rout my whole army, and so they spend far too much effort pursuing him, while the rest of my army casually Kauyon's them to death.
Therion wrote:
6th edition lands on June 23rd!
Good news. This is the best time in the hobby. Full of promise. GW lets us down each time and we know it but secretly we're hoping that this is the edition that GW gives us a balanced game that can also be played competitively at tournaments. I'm loving it.
But the thing is with a geq profile you don't aim the same weapons at them as you would a broadside.
And the thing about pathfinders is they turn fire warriors into a unit that can eliminate a key target quickly. So they fear that the pathfinders will help fw's cause an hq to flee from the table(used to dothat so many times. )
Things like that make them fear pathfinders and single out all non s6+ at them.
Besides when I play turn 1-2 results in you losing most of your vehicles and that's an accepted fact in our meta. So they figured out that if they ignore the sides and suits they can nuke the finders and drop my infantry killing power easily.
Nothing is more annoying then 3 basilisks aiming at pathfinders.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/19 21:30:48
Three Bassies at your PF? Holy crap. WINNING! If my opponants spent turn one aiming their Bassies at Pathfinders instead of Crisis Suits, Stealth Suits, my tanks, my Broadsides, or any of my FW teams, I would ALWAYS TAKE PATHFINDERS! That's what, 300 pts aimed at removing a 96pt unit? Yeah, awesome.
Therion wrote:
6th edition lands on June 23rd!
Good news. This is the best time in the hobby. Full of promise. GW lets us down each time and we know it but secretly we're hoping that this is the edition that GW gives us a balanced game that can also be played competitively at tournaments. I'm loving it.
Nagashek wrote:On discussing this last night, I'm actually hoping Tau remain without different weapons options in FW squads in their next book. The idea of the race is that each part is a cog in the machine of the whole. Each unit supports each other unit. FW are in a long range anti-infantry role (Which they do very well) You use suits and vehicles to fulfill other roles. What I would actually like to see in the next book is an exacerbation of that mindset, to the point that the Tau Empire functions like Menoth does in Warmachine.
In order to beat Menoth, you have to pick apart an overlapping group of synergies that are very powerful in order to beat the army. Once that is done, the army crumbles, but a properly constructed list can cover it's weaknesses well (with the remaining Achilles Heel, of course, of Assault). In the Menoth list, the overlapping Synergies will ALWAYS have a lynchpin: a single target that must be taken out first in order to disassemble the list. The difficulty is that this vulnerable point changes based on how you build your list, but it is always there. A keen opponant can find that point. A newb Tau player may not know how to protect it, or even build a list that harmonizes. They would be hard to get to, but once you got there... Splat. GEqs with worse WS.
having fought the menoth pop n drop I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. that being said, I'd love to see sniper teams be a troop choice that is taken based on the number of FW in the army...it'd give a nice idea of fire support iin the troops section
also more weapon options for the other slots (like something akin to an assault cannon for crisis suits) and a codex wide point drop (something like stealth sutis being 20pts and being able to take plasma rifles to make them MEQ hunters)
docbrown wrote:Plasma stealths would obselete crisis suits
Hey what about jsj devilfish
No, that would compliment/support Crisis Suits. The rumored changed to Rapid Fire, though, and the fact that all jetpack suits are relentless would make Stealth Suits an actual threat. Also, it's a single, non twin-linked Plasma Rifle on a T3 1W model as opposed to T4 2W (3W if the rumors are true).
Stealth suits are already a threat based on volume of fire alone. Trust me.
But I would kill for a plastic orca. Srsly.
Therion wrote:
6th edition lands on June 23rd!
Good news. This is the best time in the hobby. Full of promise. GW lets us down each time and we know it but secretly we're hoping that this is the edition that GW gives us a balanced game that can also be played competitively at tournaments. I'm loving it.
Much though I like the Orca model, any vehicle which is longer or wider than its movement rate is probably too large to make a realistic game piece, especially when compared with the micronized SM vehicles.
That said, if they made it, I would definitely buy one.
to
are cute
smell 
Tau are still my favorite, so I'm hoping for the best here. I think I'll be fine if Ward wrote the rules but stayed the frak away from the fluff.
The tide is coming
BLU
