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That doesn't really help on kill points missions, though. It's possible that you go for tabling through extreme resistance to enemy firepower (your power is mostly preserved throughout the game, so you have a big late game advantage). I guess one option is to reserve the SWS. You're not losing that many points, they still score objectives, and by the time they show, your heavy hitters can have thinned the enemy a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This would very awesome against Tau, though. Not enough different hitters to take the squads off fast enough.

True, KP can be an issue, but the SWS is a very easy unit to hide (you could probably fit them behind an artillery piece or Russ if the enemy don't have barrage weapons. Reserves is another option, as you don't lose that much killing power.

I think what's true of Tau is true of most other armies. 15 scoring units+other squads/vehicles are too many targets for most to deal with.

So... MSU blobs.

You still have 20 units, and it in every way plays like an MSU list, except "S" in this case refers to units of 50 models, because they're cheap enough to do this.

Hmm...

Sentinels (+armored Sents) now have a save of 2+?
Am I reading something wrong? That wasnt in 5th Codex afaik.

 Ratius wrote:
Sentinels (+armored Sents) now have a save of 2+?
Am I reading something wrong? That wasnt in 5th Codex afaik.

Wut? Context please, I didn't see this.

Create an AM death star list with straken, yarrick, nork, priest, lvl2 Divination psyker, Astropath, 4x veterns armed with heavy flamer and meltagun, medic, regimental standard, carapace armour on vets. They fit in a chimera with forewarning and hyms is a rerollable 4+ invulernable save!

The unit has a rerollable 4+ invulnerable saves and armour saves, FNP, furious charge, counter atk, relentless, fearless, monster hunter, smash., (nork body guard on yarrick and straken, priest, psyker), (nork takes all of strakens challenges) +1 wound from standard, 2 x senior officers, LD 10 unit w rerollable ld tests, preferred enemy (orks), hatred (reroll all CC atks first rd), reroll all hits and wounds. (astropath can remove fearless and cause fear to any unit it faces, or puppet master a target)

total cost=668

*Not sure if straken can take an heirloom of conquest since he replaces the company commander. If so blade of conquest 25pts (Str+1 and ap3)

Wut? Context please, I didn't see this.

Digital Codex edition, page 139. After Attacks 1, under Sentinels it has SV2. Its gotta be a misprint? I dont have the hardback Codex.

Isn't it a vehicle? why would it have a save?

I don't have the digital, but in the hardback, sentinels have a set of AV values, not an Sv.

My guess is that it's a typo where they wrote "sv" where they meant to write "hp"

 Ailaros wrote:
So... MSU blobs.

You still have 20 units, and it in every way plays like an MSU list, except "S" in this case refers to units of 50 models, because they're cheap enough to do this.

Hmm...

Exactly. Maybe MS/BU- Multiple Small/Big Units?

I think it's definitely worth experimenting with, the combination of cheap throwaways that, if ignored, are scoring and can potentially pin/do damage, and if focused on, let your more openly dangerous units get further up the board.

My guess is that it's a typo where they wrote "sv" where they meant to write "hp"

Yes, I'd concur with that. Thought something was a bit whacky

gungo wrote:
Create an AM death star list with straken, yarrick, nork, priest, lvl2 Divination psyker, Astropath, 4x veterns armed with heavy flamer and meltagun, medic, regimental standard, carapace armour on vets. They fit in a chimera with forewarning and hyms is a rerollable 4+ invulernable save!

The unit has a rerollable 4+ invulnerable saves and armour saves, FNP, furious charge, counter atk, relentless, fearless, monster hunter, smash., (nork body guard on yarrick and straken, priest, psyker), (nork takes all of strakens challenges) +1 wound from standard, 2 x senior officers, LD 10 unit w rerollable ld tests, preferred enemy (orks), hatred (reroll all CC atks first rd), reroll all hits and wounds. (astropath can remove fearless and cause fear to any unit it faces, or puppet master a target)

total cost=668

*Not sure if straken can take an heirloom of conquest since he replaces the company commander. If so blade of conquest 25pts (Str+1 and ap3)

Except someone just pops the chimera and then hits the unit with a heavy flamer and everything dies. Don't forget that the priest's hymns only works in close combat, which you can't get in to without sitting outside your transport for a turn.

 Ailaros wrote:
So... MSU blobs.

You still have 20 units, and it in every way plays like an MSU list, except "S" in this case refers to units of 50 models, because they're cheap enough to do this.

Hmm...

Yes, in the imperial guard we do MLU.

Paradigm wrote:Exactly. Maybe MS/BU- Multiple Small/Big Units?

So, MBU...

CCS - medic, 2x meltas 95
Tank commander - vanquisher, LC/MMs
- vanquisher, LC/MMs
- vanquisher, LC/MMs

3x psykers (all lvl 2)
3x priests
2x commissars

PCS - 2x meltas
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
Conscripts (50)

PCS - 2x meltas
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
Conscripts (50)

For 1850

203 infantry units, but I don't know if I buy it. It's still possible to chunk through that many infantrymen in a game, even if some of them wind up with a 4++, and an awful lot depends on the fate of three leman russes.

It seems like there isn't enough M to the MBU idea, on the one hand, and this wouldn't necessarily escape the creating a giant wall of corpses just outside of your deployment zone while the infantry don't actually get anywhere on the other.

I'm rethinking Yarrick. He's so much more durable than a CCS and once you take into account the cost of a Chimera and upgrades for the CCS he's pretty much the same price. One of my main concerns with the AM book is that CCS will be a fire magnet. Pretty much everytime I look at an AS list the CCS seems like the most tempting and juicy target. Even mediocre players will catch on quick after ending up on the ass end of bring it down or ignore cover orders.

I fear CCS are going to end up like Tau pathfinders. Focused and despised by opponents, and too fragile to live through the agro.

A 2nd minimal cost CCS might also be good. Maybe camo cloaks and 4 sniper rifles for 78 points. With 6th ed rules the squad can also use a ruin well in 1 of 2 ways.

#1 Shoot and run D6" as the 2nd order The company commander is the only one that needs to move, and he only needs to move away from the windows out of LOS. If the squad gets shot the hell up the CCS is out of LOS. S5 tau missiles can still get him, but they don't ID him.

#2 Don't shoot and simply run the commander out of LOS after giving orders. Then move back towards a window next turn.

There are counters, but we are dealing with a squad that costs 1/2 the normal cost of a decked out CCS in a Chimera.

If you're confident you'll get the terrain, that's a good option, I think. There's also the option of dropping a CCS altogether, and just using a Tank Commander. No orders, but pretty solid warlord traits and super tough.

 schadenfreude wrote:
I fear CCS are going to end up like Tau pathfinders. Focused and despised by opponents, and too fragile to live through the agro.

The CCS has the huge advantage of not needing LOS. Go with a minimal squad that can hide in the lower floor of a ruin and it is safe from barrage and normal fire. Possibly equip it with some weapons for when the enemy gets close. Something like:

CCS - Banner, vox, OoF, 2 melta/mortar team.

Just over a hundred points for a useful buff unit that can be kept safely out of danger for the first few turns. The weapons are not needed, but give it a bit of bite if the enemy breaks your lines.

 Ailaros wrote:

Paradigm wrote:Exactly. Maybe MS/BU- Multiple Small/Big Units?

So, MBU...

CCS - medic, 2x meltas 95
Tank commander - vanquisher, LC/MMs
- vanquisher, LC/MMs
- vanquisher, LC/MMs

3x psykers (all lvl 2)
3x priests
2x commissars

PCS - 2x meltas
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
Conscripts (50)

PCS - 2x meltas
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
PIS - melta
Conscripts (50)

For 1850

203 infantry units, but I don't know if I buy it. It's still possible to chunk through that many infantrymen in a game, even if some of them wind up with a 4++, and an awful lot depends on the fate of three leman russes.

It seems like there isn't enough M to the MBU idea, on the one hand, and this wouldn't necessarily escape the creating a giant wall of corpses just outside of your deployment zone while the infantry don't actually get anywhere on the other.

I would personally drop the conscripts down to 40 men (just less unwieldy) and maybe not go all-out on the Psykers (keep 2 at lvl1 and 1 lvl2) , and use the free points to grad a few Sniper SWS. Gives you the small units to mix in, that will either get ignored and score or get shot at and distract firepower from the blobs. It's a win-win situation.

 Ailaros wrote:
So... MSU blobs.

You still have 20 units, and it in every way plays like an MSU list, except "S" in this case refers to units of 50 models, because they're cheap enough to do this.

Hmm...

It's not often that the swarm of plague zombies gets crushed beneath the sheer numbers of the living. I'll say that.

 Trickstick wrote:

gungo wrote:
Create an AM death star list with straken, yarrick, nork, priest, lvl2 Divination psyker, Astropath, 4x veterns armed with heavy flamer and meltagun, medic, regimental standard, carapace armour on vets. They fit in a chimera with forewarning and hyms is a rerollable 4+ invulernable save!

The unit has a rerollable 4+ invulnerable saves and armour saves, FNP, furious charge, counter atk, relentless, fearless, fear, monster hunter, smash., (nork body guard on yarrick and straken, priest, psyker), (nork takes all of strakens challenges) +1 wound from standard, 2 x senior officers, LD 10 unit w rerollable ld tests, preferred enemy (orks), hatred (reroll all CC atks first rd), reroll all hits and wounds. (astropath can remove fearless and cause fear to any unit it faces, or puppet master a target)

total cost=668

*Not sure if straken can take an heirloom of conquest since he replaces the company commander. If so blade of conquest 25pts (Str+1 and ap3) , give Nork death mask of ollanius 4+ invulnerable, it will not die, fear 30 points.

Except someone just pops the chimera and then hits the unit with a heavy flamer and everything dies. Don't forget that the priest's hymns only works in close combat, which you can't get in to without sitting outside your transport for a turn.

A divination psyker can give the chimera ( forewarning-target unit) a 4+ invul sv even inside the chimera (firepoint). Hard to pop it in that case. even if you broke through the chimera's 4+ invul and used a hvy flamer and able to target most of them with a template, Most of them (priest, psyker, yarrick, straken, nork) still have natural 4+/5+ invulnerable(3+ armour for straken) saves and they all a 5+ FNP. On top of that how exactly does everything die with a hvy flamer when most of them (all but the vets) have multiple wounds again?

instead of a heavy flamer you're going to want str 6+ spam to take out the psyker and medic and get rid of the extra 4+ invulnerable and Fnp before the psyker recasts forewarning on the unit but remember Nork will protect all characters in his unit. So none of the characters die until you kill Nork, which at 3 wounds and the mask regening wounds, toughness 5, 4+ invul and armour sv, FNP. is a beast to kill unless you hit him with insta death and/or str10 weapons. (Yarrick is the only one that can't be insta killed and can still get up after you kill him.)

Something I just noticed: Ogryns are no longer scared of heights.

The rule that stated that Ogryns can't embark on a Valkyrie is gone. You can now put up to 4 of them in a Valk and have them jump out.

I don't know if this would be useful but it's nice to know that you can do it.

gungo wrote:

A divination psyker can give the chimera ( forewarning-target unit) a 4+ invul sv even inside the chimera (firepoint). Hard to pop it in that case. even if you broke through the chimera's 4+ invul and used a hvy flamer and able to target most of them with a template, Most of them (priest, psyker, yarrick, straken) still have natural 4+/5+ invulnerable(3+ armour for straken) saves and they all a 5+ FNP. On top of that how exactly does everything die with a hvy flamer when most of them (all but the vets) have multiple wounds again?

instead of a heavy flamer you're going to want str 6+ spam to take out the psyker and medic and get rid of the extra 4+ invulnerable and Fnp before the psyker recasts forewarning on the unit but remember Nork will protect all characters in his unit (aka psyker). Insta death weapons also work on all but yarrick as well.

You seem to be doing an awful lot of counting on having forewarning for it being a random power that you roll. I can count the number of armies I've seen recently that don't have a lot of S6/7 spam on two hands.

So here's the deal with the heavy flamer: Nork has a 4+ save, because carapace armor, right? You have a 1/6 chance of getting Forewarning, so we'll consider how it goes if you don't get it.. So you have a 4+ save with a 5+ FNP. Against a heavy flamer that hits the enitre squad, because you just got knocked out of your transport, you have 10 hits. that'll get you about 8-9 wounds (average T3, remember?) Nork starts soaking wounds, gets no armor save, FNPs away 3 of them. You still get 6 wounds. Bye bye Nork, and still 2 wounds left.

And that's just a single gun firing at them. Now combine that with the rest of the unit firing. Hell, for that matter, consider a single Manticore firing at them.

 daedalus wrote:

gungo wrote:

A divination psyker can give the chimera ( forewarning-target unit) a 4+ invul sv even inside the chimera (firepoint). Hard to pop it in that case. even if you broke through the chimera's 4+ invul and used a hvy flamer and able to target most of them with a template, Most of them (priest, psyker, yarrick, straken) still have natural 4+/5+ invulnerable(3+ armour for straken) saves and they all a 5+ FNP. On top of that how exactly does everything die with a hvy flamer when most of them (all but the vets) have multiple wounds again?

instead of a heavy flamer you're going to want str 6+ spam to take out the psyker and medic and get rid of the extra 4+ invulnerable and Fnp before the psyker recasts forewarning on the unit but remember Nork will protect all characters in his unit (aka psyker). Insta death weapons also work on all but yarrick as well.

You seem to be doing an awful lot of counting on having forewarning for it being a random power that you roll. I can count the number of armies I've seen recently that don't have a lot of S6/7 spam on two hands.

So here's the deal with the heavy flamer: Nork has a 4+ save, because carapace armor, right? You have a 1/6 chance of getting Forewarning, so we'll consider how it goes if you don't get it.. So you have a 4+ save with a 5+ FNP. Against a heavy flamer that hits the enitre squad, because you just got knocked out of your transport, you have 10 hits. that'll get you about 8-9 wounds (average T3, remember?) Nork starts soaking wounds, gets no armor save, FNPs away 3 of them. You still get 6 wounds. Bye bye Nork, and still 2 wounds left.

And that's just a single gun firing at them. Now combine that with the rest of the unit firing. Hell, for that matter, consider a single Manticore firing at them.

Indeed. All this theory crafting based around forewarning is great but there is the fact that in most games you won't get the power (1 in 6 chance for a level 1 and 1 in 3 for a level 2 assuming you don't take prescience) and in those you do it will fail 1 out of every 6 casts (assuming you aren't up against 'nids).

If you are basing your army list on a series of dicerolls you make before deployment which are highly likely to leave you disappointed then that is a poor army list.

 daedalus wrote:

gungo wrote:

A divination psyker can give the chimera ( forewarning-target unit) a 4+ invul sv even inside the chimera (firepoint). Hard to pop it in that case. even if you broke through the chimera's 4+ invul and used a hvy flamer and able to target most of them with a template, Most of them (priest, psyker, yarrick, straken) still have natural 4+/5+ invulnerable(3+ armour for straken) saves and they all a 5+ FNP. On top of that how exactly does everything die with a hvy flamer when most of them (all but the vets) have multiple wounds again?

instead of a heavy flamer you're going to want str 6+ spam to take out the psyker and medic and get rid of the extra 4+ invulnerable and Fnp before the psyker recasts forewarning on the unit but remember Nork will protect all characters in his unit (aka psyker). Insta death weapons also work on all but yarrick as well.

You seem to be doing an awful lot of counting on having forewarning for it being a random power that you roll. I can count the number of armies I've seen recently that don't have a lot of S6/7 spam on two hands.

So here's the deal with the heavy flamer: Nork has a 4+ save, because carapace armor, right? You have a 1/6 chance of getting Forewarning, so we'll consider how it goes if you don't get it.. So you have a 4+ save with a 5+ FNP. Against a heavy flamer that hits the enitre squad, because you just got knocked out of your transport, you have 10 hits. that'll get you about 8-9 wounds (average T3, remember?) Nork starts soaking wounds, gets no armor save, FNPs away 3 of them. You still get 6 wounds. Bye bye Nork, and still 2 wounds left.

And that's just a single gun firing at them. Now combine that with the rest of the unit firing. Hell, for that matter, consider a single Manticore firing at them.

If the divination psyker doesnt get forewarning (4+invul) even after any rerolls for powers (1 out of 3 because of lvl 2), I would still also take Prescience (reroll all saves, hits and wounds) which is still extremely helpful for this group, Either power works and significantly improves your chance at dice rolls by taking either one. Regardless Nork gets 4+ armour save from carapace and the 4+ invulnerable from the death mask and the 5+ FNP.

So lets assume you get neither forewarning nor Prescience, because the dice hate you today. And you were lucky to get a perfect template on all 10 models (impressive), in 10 hits ~8 wound, 4 are blocked by the invulnerable save, 1 gets blocked by fnp, 3 wounds and norks dead (except he doesnt take the hits on non characters aka medic, standard bearer, meltagunner, heavy flamer, astropath), he doesnt die but if he did he has death throws and likely kills the target. If all the rolls go bad for you. if he lives he has a chance at regening wounds (it will not die). If you get prescience instead of forewarning they all have a chance at rerollables, And the main point of nork is a bodyguard to protect the characters. Once your in flamer range you are in charge range and this group is still great in CC.

Youre not really relying on random rolls from the psyker. They only help the group. Instead 5 of 10 models all have native invulnerables.

gungo wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

gungo wrote:

A divination psyker can give the chimera ( forewarning-target unit) a 4+ invul sv even inside the chimera (firepoint). Hard to pop it in that case. even if you broke through the chimera's 4+ invul and used a hvy flamer and able to target most of them with a template, Most of them (priest, psyker, yarrick, straken) still have natural 4+/5+ invulnerable(3+ armour for straken) saves and they all a 5+ FNP. On top of that how exactly does everything die with a hvy flamer when most of them (all but the vets) have multiple wounds again?

instead of a heavy flamer you're going to want str 6+ spam to take out the psyker and medic and get rid of the extra 4+ invulnerable and Fnp before the psyker recasts forewarning on the unit but remember Nork will protect all characters in his unit (aka psyker). Insta death weapons also work on all but yarrick as well.

You seem to be doing an awful lot of counting on having forewarning for it being a random power that you roll. I can count the number of armies I've seen recently that don't have a lot of S6/7 spam on two hands.

So here's the deal with the heavy flamer: Nork has a 4+ save, because carapace armor, right? You have a 1/6 chance of getting Forewarning, so we'll consider how it goes if you don't get it.. So you have a 4+ save with a 5+ FNP. Against a heavy flamer that hits the enitre squad, because you just got knocked out of your transport, you have 10 hits. that'll get you about 8-9 wounds (average T3, remember?) Nork starts soaking wounds, gets no armor save, FNPs away 3 of them. You still get 6 wounds. Bye bye Nork, and still 2 wounds left.

And that's just a single gun firing at them. Now combine that with the rest of the unit firing. Hell, for that matter, consider a single Manticore firing at them.

If the divination psyker doesnt get forewarning (4+invul) even after any rerolls for powers or Prescience (reroll all saves)which is still extremely helpful for this group. Nork gets 4+ armour save from carapace and the 4+ invulnerable (possible reroll) from the death mask and the 5+ FNP.

So lets assume you get neither forewarning nor Prescience, because the dice hate you today. And you were lucky to get a perfect template on all 10 models (impressive), in 10 hits ~8 wound, 4 are blocked by the invulnerable save, 4 get through, 1 gets blocked by fnp, 3 wounds and norks dead, he does his death throws and kills the target. If all the rolls go bad for you. if he lives he has a chance at regening wounds. If you get prescience he has a chance at rerollable, if you had forewarning the transport has a 4+. And the main point of nork is a bodyguard to protect the characters. Once your in flamer range you are in charge range and this group is great in CC.

Nork can't benefit from the Deathmask because he can't take Heirlooms and only the wearer of the mask gets the Invuln save and saves are AFTER Look Out Sir so those 8 wounds go straight onto Nork who tanks 2 maybe 3 but still dies with wounds left over. He only gets to attack the target that kills him in Close Combat not from being burnt to death by a Heavy Flamer.

EDIT: Also Nork can't eat Strakens challenges. Heroic Interventions can only occur if a challenge goes on for more than one combat phase. Straken still MUST challenge and accept challenges and fight them for at least one combat phase. If he is still alive after that then Nork will automatically step in.

gungo wrote:


If the divination psyker doesnt get forewarning (4+invul) even after any rerolls for powers or Prescience (reroll all saves)which is still extremely helpful for this group. Nork gets 4+ armour save from carapace and the 4+ invulnerable (possible reroll) from the death mask and the 5+ FNP.

I just got, like, sooper confused here. Let's take a few steps back. Prescience doesn't let you reroll all saves. It lets you reroll failed to-hit rolls. Maybe you're thinking of the priest ability? Maybe it's called Prescience too? I don't have my codex on me. Also, where did the death mask come from? Who's carrying that?

So lets assume you get neither forewarning nor Prescience, because the dice hate you today. And you were lucky to get a perfect template on all 10 models (impressive), in 10 hits ~8 wound, 4 are blocked by the invulnerable save, 4 get through, 1 gets blocked by fnp, 3 wounds and norks dead, he does his death throws and kills the target. If all the rolls go bad for you. if he lives he has a chance at regening wounds. If you get prescience he has a chance at rerollable, if you had forewarning the transport has a 4+. And the main point of nork is a bodyguard to protect the characters. Once your in flamer range you are in charge range and this group is great in CC.

Template across all 10 models is respectable, but it's far from impossible, especially if you blew up the Chimera, rather than wrecking it. Nork doesn't get the death throws thingy because he's not in close combat yet. We also still have all the rest of the firing of whatever had that heavy flamer left over.

sorry was mixing prescience and precognition.
still lvl 2 psyker gives a reroll on power.

The death mask is a relic cost 25 points, gives it will not die, an 4+ invul, fear and can be used by anyone.
On most guard armies its not worth it but it works well on Nork.

Also nork does not intercept the wounds on, astropaths, meltagunner, standard bearer, heavy flamer, and medic. The only one in that list thats someone important is the medic, but nork has FNP naturally.

gungo wrote:
sorry was mixing prescience and precognition.
still lvl 2 psyker gives a reroll on power.

The death mask is a relic cost 25 points, gives it will not die, an 4+ invul, fear and can be used by anyone.
On most guard armies its not worth it but it works well on Nork.

No it can be used by anybody who can take Heirlooms. That's regular Company Commanders and Lord Commissars only. Nobody else.

Precognition only affects the Psyker not the unit. It's useless on a Primaris Psyker.

Yeah, I'm going with what Rob said.

[
Nevermind i see it.