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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Great White wrote: I mean the only way to counter the jet bikes is armor, or drop pods with some shooty units in them
There are a few other options. Tau with their ability to ignore cover should be able to kill them reasonably well, and IG artillery can hurt them if the table has enough LOS-blocking terrain to hide the big guns behind. Conventional tanks are probably the worst counter because D-weapon spam is the other half of the Eldar army and that turns AV 13-14 into a spectacular waste of points.
Problem is, those Jetbikes can outrange our markerlights thanks to that 12" move and JSJ and all that S6 will shred pathfinders and marker drones without some sort of tanking character to protect them, which can just be avoided thanks to the jetbikes manoeuvrability.
They can also outrange all of our crisis suit weapons. Max range is 36" (Missile Pod)+6" move, a full 6" less than the Jetbikes. Then a Crisis with dual missile pods puts out the same amount of shots as a single scatter laser but comes in at least at 52 points, almost twice that of a Windrider. So you can field ~twice as many windriders as crisis suits for the same points, put out double the shots and be way more manoeuvrable to boot.
So that leaves us with: Fire Warriors - 30+6" range, they'll never hit them. Railhead - has the range but only puts out a single large blast at AP4, not that reliable. Ionhead - Again has the range and this time with a S8 AP3 large blast but gets hot. Broadsides - HYMP suffer the same problem as crisis suits, but with the added problem of snapshots, Railguns get one shot so are basically useless. Kroot - outflanking kroot might actually help, even if just to create danger zones around the board edges and limit the movement of the jetbikes. Riptide - Has the range but is only BS3 and gets hot on its blast. So without markerlight support could fail to fire or scatter off target.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/16 00:46:01
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Why are we bothering to consider such a ridiculously unlikely scenario? Every Eldar list is going to spam D-weapons to go with their jetbikes, unless they're deliberately playing a weak list to go easy on a newbie.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Town Called Malus wrote: Problem is, those Jetbikes can outrange our markerlights thanks to that 12" move and JSJ and all that S6 will shred pathfinders and marker drones without some sort of tanking character to protect them, which can just be avoided thanks to the jetbikes manoeuvrability.
Remoras, deep striking drone units, etc. Pathfinders aren't the only markerlight source.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 00:34:53
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Why are we bothering to consider such a ridiculously unlikely scenario? Every Eldar list is going to spam D-weapons to go with their jetbikes, unless they're deliberately playing a weak list to go easy on a newbie.
Do we know the price of the new wraith units? I for one expect a price increase in them, so it may be difficult to spam d weapons and jet bikes in an army
Why are we bothering to consider such a ridiculously unlikely scenario? Every Eldar list is going to spam D-weapons to go with their jetbikes, unless they're deliberately playing a weak list to go easy on a newbie.
Do we know the price of the new wraith units? I for one expect a price increase in them, so it may be difficult to spam d weapons and jet bikes in an army
I feel like expecting something reasonable like that at this point is setting yourself up for dissapointment.
Do we know the price of the new wraith units? I for one expect a price increase in them, so it may be difficult to spam d weapons and jet bikes in an army
No, and this has been my point all along. It's not a disaster (or even a bad thing) if Eldar have the biggest, baddest weapons -- as long as it forces them to have fewer numbers. In their matchup, 1 DWK squad lost 2 members at range, 1 more in cc -- and the two deathwing knights in smite mode smashed the Wraithknight to bits.
If the Wraithknight is costed at higher than the other two common D-strength units (IK and BT), who only have melee D weapons, that's not really such a big deal anymore. If Wraithguard get "the terminator treatment" -- ie comparable to getting a power fist on every unit -- they end up being too expensive for the squad to be ideal. If they force you to buy five 12" D weapons at a high cost, and you'll lose 3 of them getting set up, then you're paying a lot for what's left.
Not only that, but this would fit all the fluff. I mean, Eldar are SUPPOSED to have the best technology. They did rule the galaxy for millions of years, after all, and could reform planets and destroy stars like we change channels on TV. With the junk that Chaos and Tyranids get, the Eldar commanders must surely have been drunk to lose so badly after the Fall. The freaking incarnation of Khorne can't even take on a Wraithknight
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/16 00:55:01
Do we know the price of the new wraith units? I for one expect a price increase in them, so it may be difficult to spam d weapons and jet bikes in an army
No, and this has been my point all along. It's not a disaster (or even a bad thing) if Eldar have the biggest, baddest weapons -- as long as it forces them to have fewer numbers. In their matchup, 1 DWK squad lost 2 members at range, 1 more in cc -- and the two deathwing knights in smite mode smashed the Wraithknight to bits.
If the Wraithknight is costed at higher than the other two common D-strength units (IK and BT), who only have melee D weapons, that's not really such a big deal anymore. If Wraithguard get "the terminator treatment" -- ie comparable to getting a power fist on every unit -- they end up being too expensive for the squad to be ideal. If they force you to buy five 12" D weapons at a high cost, and you'll lose 3 of them getting set up, then you're paying a lot for what's left.
Not only that, but this would fit all the fluff. I mean, Eldar are SUPPOSED to have the best technology. They did rule the galaxy for millions of years, after all, and could reform planets and destroy stars like we change channels on TV. With the junk that Chaos and Tyranids get, the Eldar commanders must surely have been drunk to lose so badly after the Fall. The freaking incarnation of Khorne can't even take on a Wraithknight
The problem with the wraithguard scenario is that Eldar have access to pretty reliable methods of getting them where they need to go. The have Waveserpents which, if they haven't been nerfed, are very tough and resilient thanks to the serpent shield and they can also ally in Dark Eldar and get access to a Webway Portal to allow no scatter deep striking.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Eldarain wrote: How was the 7th Fantasy Daemons book dealt with in tournaments? That is the last book which I can remember that was just mind-bogglingly out of touch with the rest of them.
I believe it nearly killed WHFB (among other things, of course).
Why do people keep saying any of these could be typos? GW is terrible at writing rules and gives zero feths about balance. They have admitted as much on multiple occasions. This isn't even close to the first broken/OP stuff they've put out. You guys saw the newcron codex, right? You can surmise about typos or you can start figuring out a counter build. I know what I would spend my time doing. Also, you can just ebay your armies because you're tired of GWs crap.
Talys wrote: I don't know if someone pointed this out already, but the new kit comes with the parts to make all 3 scatter lasers (or shuriken cannons, or w/e).
Just flipping through my WD64 and noticed that (on the side-bar that I didn't snap a photo of, it specifically says that you can upgrade each bike to scatter lasers or shuriken cannons, so there is zero ambiguity).
FLAWLESS VICTORY.
Truly the End Times are upon us, GW wasn't kidding!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 01:05:10
Eldarain wrote: How was the 7th Fantasy Daemons book dealt with in tournaments? That is the last book which I can remember that was just mind-bogglingly out of touch with the rest of them.
I believe it nearly killed WHFB (among other things, of course).
Yeah, by the end of 7E it was Daemons on top, a pretty big gap and then Vampire Counts and Dark Elves, Teclis High Elves and trying to play pretty much anything else was pointless. 8E tried to fix that situations and made a whole bunch of changes...but unfortunately bunked a couple of major points that GW never tried to fix, and thus WHFB has largely died.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Talys wrote: If Wraithguard get "the terminator treatment" -- ie comparable to getting a power fist on every unit -- they end up being too expensive for the squad to be ideal. If they force you to buy five 12" D weapons at a high cost, and you'll lose 3 of them getting set up, then you're paying a lot for what's left.
The problem is that, even ignoring delivery options that get them to a target before anyone can shoot at them, if 2-3 D-weapons survive they still have a pretty good chance of making their points back. The average result of three BS 4 D-weapon shots is a dead 250-point Land Raider.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
With all the numbers being thrown around I think it would be good to get some perspective.
The current mid-strength high volume unit of choice is of course the wave serpent.
If we consider a wave serpent with TL scatter, Cannon and using its shield (with 5 shots), then vs a tac squad it will deal 3.26 wounds per turn.
5 scatter laser jetbikes (which cost 5 points more, so are very comparable), average 3.7 wounds per turn.
So we can see that the new bikes will have a better damage output than a serpent.
Other things to consider are:
- Bikes engage to full efficiency at 36 range (the serpent has to be in 24 to use the cannon, but has a longer range with the shield).
- Have no additional costs - the waveserpent needs to spend at least another 65 points to get Dire avengers.
- Jetbikes can benefit from guide or prescience, taking their average wounds vs marines up to 4.9 a turn (this means a 10 man squad will almost wipe a whole tac squad a turn if it has re-rolls).
- JSJ. I hope people fully realise the consequences of having JSJ on a mobile 36 inch range platform. Many armies will never have a chance to put shots on the bikes.
- Bikes have a faster flat out/ turbo speed.
- Serpents are immune to most barrage weapons like wyverns, bikes are not.
- Heldrakes don't bother serpents, but can potentially decimate bikes.
All in all, it is my conclusion and opinion that jetbikes will be more competitive than serpent spam, and even less fun to play against.
For another comparision to a different mid-strength volume unit, consider a broadside.
A single Broadside vs marines (without markerlights) will do 1.5 wounds per turn.
2 bikes (worth 11 points less than a broadside) will do 1.48 wounds.
Eldar have basically got a slightly less durable (not sure about this actually, bikes have a worse save, but do get jink), but highly mobile JSJ broadside unit.
When the sky is falling, all you can do is hope. Hope that there's been a terrible mistake. Hope that it's just a bad dream. Hope that you can actually get a game with your favorite army.
As far as counters go, Deep-striking sounds like the best. You can get up in their face instantly, and can take advantage of the individual jetbikes' low durability. They're only as tough as Tac marines.
The only problem is killing enough to whether the inevitable storm of retaliatory fire...
If this codex is bad as it seems, and it looks like it is. I say we all band together and refuse to play Eldar players. It doesn't matter if they have cheese or not. GW should know never to do this again, and Eldar players never being able to get a game is that solution. Seems harsh the innocent Eldar players have to suffer, but that's the cost of nerfing to show them how fething insane this is.
Yeah I'll "hope" it all ends up being balanced. Yet I'll be prepared to turn down all Eldar players.
Worked when Fish of Fury was around and it got their attention. Will work now. I'm a Tau player as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 05:27:11
As a long time Eldar players, I don't see the need to run that many Jetbikes, but to each their own. However, to see GW make a fluffy and hard hitting army is something I'm really excited for. I look forward to seeing the massed Saim Hann styled army on the table.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
Gamgee wrote: If this codex is bad as it seems, and it looks like it is. I say we all band together and refuse to play Eldar players. It doesn't matter if they have cheese or not. GW should know never to do this again, and Eldar players never being able to get a game is that solution. Seems harsh the innocent Eldar players have to suffer, but that's the cost of nerfing to show them how fething insane this is.
Yeah I'll "hope" it all ends up being balanced. Yet I'll be prepared to turn down all Eldar players.
Worked when Fish of Fury was around and it got their attention. Will work now. I'm a Tau player as well.
I think we should go one step further and not play Canadian players either. That'll show 'em.
Gamgee wrote: If this codex is bad as it seems, and it looks like it is. I say we all band together and refuse to play Eldar players. It doesn't matter if they have cheese or not. GW should know never to do this again, and Eldar players never being able to get a game is that solution. Seems harsh the innocent Eldar players have to suffer, but that's the cost of nerfing to show them how fething insane this is.
Yeah I'll "hope" it all ends up being balanced. Yet I'll be prepared to turn down all Eldar players.
Worked when Fish of Fury was around and it got their attention. Will work now. I'm a Tau player as well.
That's a bit too harsh. If you want to restrict eldar players, why not just suggest them using a 6-th ed dex?
I don't know why D-weapon WG are even being discussed.
You want to crap on all the armor your jetbikes can't kill? In an 1850 point list you've got almost 800 points to spend on Fire Dragons with Webway Portal Deldar for scatterless deep-striking shenanigans. Kiss all your enemy armor goodbye turn 2.
Trying to spam AV13+ is the last thing I would do against Eldar, and that's not even considering that heavy armor spam lists are crap in a TAC environment, meaning that even if it helps you hold on against Eldar, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage against everyone else.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/16 05:42:58
BlaxicanX wrote: I don't know why D-weapon WG are even being discussed.
You want to crap on all the armor your jetbikes can't kill? In an 1850 point list you've got almost 800 points to spend on Fire Dragons with Webway Portal Deldar for scatterless deep-striking shenanigans. Kiss all your enemy armor goodbye turn 2.
Depending on how the D weapon rule is implemented to the their weapons wraithguard might be a superior choice.
If every shot is a str D, and not a random chance, then they would be a strong counter to not only vehicles, but MCs as well.
For some folks who don't play as much, sure. It will take some adjustment for folks once they see that many jetbikes, but things like LD8 and the fact it's only an MEQ stat is not overly impressive. It will be good, but good players find a way to get around it. Heck, a standard tourney style Tyranid will be challenging.
The new Khorne Demonkin codex is scary. Flesh Hounds are seriously rude now as they lost Demonic Instability, still Scout 12" and can add Chaos Lords to them (IIRC, will make them fearless on top of everything else). 20-30 Scouting Flesh Hounds were scary in the old codex and they had Demonic Instability.
Superfriends deathstar will still be a threat, even with D shot weapons (which your list doesn't have enough of). That list is designed to handle things like multiple IK.
MSU still can give this kind of army fits. At the end of the day, I'm not overly worried as I'll be able to adapt to a new strategy.
Lots of folks aren't going to cry the sky is falling. They will look at is as a challenge and figure it out, as it has been over the years.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
BlaxicanX wrote: I don't know why D-weapon WG are even being discussed.
You want to crap on all the armor your jetbikes can't kill? In an 1850 point list you've got almost 800 points to spend on Fire Dragons with Webway Portal Deldar for scatterless deep-striking shenanigans. Kiss all your enemy armor goodbye turn 2.
Depending on how the D weapon rule is implemented to the their weapons wraithguard might be a superior choice.
If every shot is a str D, and not a random chance, then they would be a strong counter to not only vehicles, but MCs as well.
Oh, certainly. My point was more in reference to the "well Wraithguard might cost a bazillion points now" argument.
Even if Wraithguard and Wraithknights end up being priced so ridiculously high that they're balanced, AV13-spam lists still won't be a reliable counter to the scatter-bike spam lists.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 05:52:32
hotsauceman1 wrote: Oh well, I play itc format and they banned range d, so I don't have to worry, I'm sure we can curve thisvtoo.
Pretty sure that's going away. I'm glad for that, banning ranged strength D was a dumb change to begin with. Then they banned all eldar FW but allowed imperium to use a bunch of theirs. Also they nerfed invisibility. Invisibility was a counter to ranged strength D. Rather than make people use those counters, they just banned one and nerfed the other. Every time you ban something, something else becomes top dog. Keep it up and everyone is allowed to have troops in basic transports (except serpents) and non-named character HQs. It's not like ranged S: D was dominating the game to begin with. Eldar had a few models that could take it but the lynx is really the only one that would be allowed based on point limit. Comps just lead to more comps. Unless something is so stupidly OP and broken that it invalidates entire armies (old transcendent c'tan) I think the meta will evolve to counter it.
Gamgee wrote: If this codex is bad as it seems, and it looks like it is. I say we all band together and refuse to play Eldar players. It doesn't matter if they have cheese or not. GW should know never to do this again, and Eldar players never being able to get a game is that solution. Seems harsh the innocent Eldar players have to suffer, but that's the cost of nerfing to show them how fething insane this is.
Yeah I'll "hope" it all ends up being balanced. Yet I'll be prepared to turn down all Eldar players.
Worked when Fish of Fury was around and it got their attention. Will work now. I'm a Tau player as well.
That's a bit too harsh. If you want to restrict eldar players, why not just suggest them using a 6-th ed dex?
This isn't about the players. It's about GW and sending a message. Sometimes the most harsh loud donkey-cave dickish actions are the only things that get the attention of people. It's the only way. Even if my best friend played Eldar I would not play with him anymore. I have to be equal in my dealings. I've had enough of this BS favouritism.
Only the harshest methods ever seem to work these days. Eldar Codex is so far gone it doesn't need a nerf. It need's a fething nerf nuke before it destroys the entire 40k game. Never has this game balance and competitive spirit been so close to the end as it is now. Not even fish of fury was this bad.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/16 06:16:30
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