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So guys, what odds do you give my footslogging CSM MEQ melee list?

 Ashiraya wrote:
So guys, what odds do you give my footslogging CSM MEQ melee list?

Ha!

Or any beginner that starts with the foundations of their army being from Dark Vengence. Yeh they would lose usually with such a list - but at least they would kill SOMETHING.

 Ashiraya wrote:
So guys, what odds do you give my footslogging CSM MEQ melee list?

I'll give you turn 3 before being tabled if you're playing well.

I'll never play my 16,000 points of Eldar again

 ArmyC wrote:
I'll never play my 16,000 points of Eldar again

That's the worst part. In sure you never asked for this.

 PandaHero wrote:
What that guy says:

Yep, that's what people are missing. Even someone bringing a couple of squads of 5 bikes to a casual game will have a pretty big advantage over his opponent, point for point. THAT is the great tragedy of this, not the tournament scene. Tournaments always manage.

I couldn't care less of what new cheese people wil lbe bringing, because my opponent rarely go over board with that at my FLGS (some do, but more often then not, it's all in good fun).

The real problem I see with those Jetbike, is that it affect ANY friendly game. I'm not talking about someone spamming bikes on purpose. I'm talking about me and my friends playing games where the balance will already be screwed at the TROOP level. Where I live, we play 1 CADS with max 1 formation or 1 ally detachement, and we favorise 3-4 Troop because we think it favorise fun game. Well it won't be as fun to know that even before turn 1, the backbone of your army (the troops) can't match the power of their backbone, and by a long shot!

I have been giving my opinion on a lot of those ''imbalance'' thread. The key, IMHO, to balance, is to compare slot per slot between army, while enforcing strict rule on CADS/Ally and such.

Maybe stop playing with such ridiculous restrictions?

I'm actually pretty fine with the Eldar Codex over all and would play against most of the codex. I'm fine with and love glass-cannon type armies. Most of their units are opposite of the Necrons and I appreciate that. Where we have little damage output and stupid durability they have stupid damage output and (mostly) little durability.

It's just the number of bikes they can take (Points issue) and the change to D weapons that irritate me. So unless it's Sammhain or Iyanden (Particularly Iyanden), go nuts.

I'm excited for the new aspect warriors and their formations. Especially the chance to see more Scorpions and Banshees!

 Orock wrote:

 ArmyC wrote:
I'll never play my 16,000 points of Eldar again

That's the worst part. In sure you never asked for this.

Man though, I wish I could get some of this for CSM though..

 ArmyC wrote:
I'll never play my 16,000 points of Eldar again

to be fair though fella if you have 16000 points of the pointy eared space fairies Im certain you have the models to put a army on the table thats both cool and not a cheesefest

 Lutharr101 wrote:

 ArmyC wrote:
I'll never play my 16,000 points of Eldar again

to be fair though fella if you have 16000 points of the pointy eared space fairies Im certain you have the models to put a army on the table thats both cool and not a cheesefest

Not to mention any army that won't fit on a table!

 Talys wrote:

 Lutharr101 wrote:

 ArmyC wrote:
I'll never play my 16,000 points of Eldar again

to be fair though fella if you have 16000 points of the pointy eared space fairies Im certain you have the models to put a army on the table thats both cool and not a cheesefest

Not to mention any army that won't fit on a table!

At least at that range there should be more than enough on the opposite end to neutralize the problem of the rules.

 Ashiraya wrote:
So guys, what odds do you give my footslogging CSM MEQ melee list?

Fixed.

I creater an account just so that I can share with you a posible BA counter.
5 drop pods with deathwind missile launchers, loaded with 10 tacticals each with plasmaguns and heavy flamers, for slightly above 1000 pts.
3 drop on the first turn and unleash 6 s7 ap2, 24 s4 ap5, 3 s5 ap 4 flame templates and 3 s5 ap - large blasts. All combat squads.
They can potentially kill about 15 of the bikes on the first turn. The eldar bikes that survive and pass their morale check, could kill 2 and a half combat squads.
The rest of the drop pods that arrive later can kill about 10 more. Thats 100 less s6 shots for the eldar.
I can see this work similarly with 3-4 sternguard drop pods in the mix.
Thoughts?

 Drasius wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
So guys, what odds do you give my footslogging CSM MEQ melee list?

Fixed.

Hmm nah, fixed all wrong. My 5 IW Sicarans will gladly meet the jetbikes, along with a few Heldrakes.

Against jinking jetbikes a sicaran kills an average of 1.5 jetbikes. Against non jinking jetbikes this increases to 2. More if you invest in lascannons. So a sicaran without lascannons will make its points back against non jinking jetbikes in 2.5 turns which isn't too bad. However in that time, the jetbikes will have likely made their own points back against other targets.

 Ashiraya wrote:
So guys, what odds do you give my footslogging CSM MEQ melee list?

A 95% chance of compete deployment, assuming you hold nothing in reserves.

There's a 5% chance you might decide to avoid the futility of fully deploying, and simply pack up before completion.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Against jinking jetbikes a sicaran kills an average of 1.5 jetbikes. Against non jinking jetbikes this increases to 2. More if you invest in lascannons. So a sicaran without lascannons will make its points back against non jinking jetbikes in 2.5 turns which isn't too bad. However in that time, the jetbikes will have likely made their own points back against other targets.

I thought Sicaran ignores jinks...

Oops, yes it does (and to think - I own one for this specific reason, facepalm!). So 2 kills a turn from the main gun of a sicaran - not too bad a return.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Oops, yes it does (and to think - I own one for this specific reason, facepalm!). So 2 kills a turn from the main gun of a sicaran - not too bad a return.

On sicaran is just going to die from all the other stuff in the army, and you cant take multiples sadly.

Why do people keep mentioning Wraithlords like they got a D-weapon?

ragazzacane wrote:
Why do people keep mentioning Wraithlords like they got a D-weapon?

I'm sure they meant wraithknight.

I am not too keen on their flyers getting rerollable jink or preferred enemy flying things either. This whole thing is a bad joke.

Wraithlords are still as terrible and useless as ever. They have middle child syndrome, their big brother and little brothers always get all the attention.

 Orock wrote:
Also, just for fun, thats 90 dead orks on average from the green tide. 90 in one turn.

Now thats a metric I can understand.

Jesus christ, I didn't think the game balance could get worse

Pfffft easy

Chaplain

Captain

Tactical squad

Tactical squad

Tactical squad

Tactical squad

Terminator squad with whatever

Terminator squad with whatever

Terminator squad with whatever


Despair is the illusion of the mind.

L2P.

The "learn to play" argument doesn't excuse poor balance. Learn to play in 40k usually equates to "spend $500-800 changing your entire list or buying a whole new army to compete with GWs latest screwup".

Terminators can deepstrike. Think.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Terminators can deepstrike. Think.

They can indeed do that. But then what? They don't have the firepower to kill jetbikes or if you go with TH/SS termies they're sitting ducks for a turn. Terminators can never kill jetbikes in melee if the Eldar player doesn't for some reason want that to happen.

One full Deathwing terminator squad with 8 storm bolters and 2 assault cannons does the following if my math is correct:

16 * 0,889 * 0,5 * 0,333 = 2,37 wounds with bolters
8 * 0,889 * 0,833 * 0,333 = 1,97 wounds with assault cannons

That means you spent 480 points on terminators to remove on average 108 points of jetbikes. That is a horrible return on investment. With the same amount of points you get almost 18 jetbikes with scatter lasers, but let's see what happens to the terminators when the remaining 13 jetbikes shoot back at them:

52 * 0,667 * 0,833 * 0,167 = 4,82 wounds

So the remaining jetbikes moved to a safe range away from the terminators, returned fire and killed 5 terminators, at minimum 220 points.

This gets even uglier if you just use the shuriken cannons and can field even more jetbikes with the same amount of points. Terminators just simply die under the weight of shots aimed at them.

24 * 3 * 0,667 * 0,833 = 40 wounds, of which 8 are rending
32 * 0,167 = 5,33 dead terminators
8 * 0,667 = 5,34 dead terminators

I have no idea what crazy magic tricks you have in mind to make this an even matchup but please do tell.


Edit: TL;DR the jetbikes were shot at, had less points to begin with and still did double the damage in points after losing almost a fourth of their starting numbers.

Edit 2: mixed up weapon profiles and special rules, should be about right now. Also added the shuriken cannon calculations.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Terminators can deepstrike. Think.

The only, and I mean the only way your list would have any chance, were if they could charge on the turn they came in via deepstrike.
Which they can't.

I really can't wait to hear what kind of hocus pocus you're hoping this basic MEQ list is going to pull out against a min-maxed Eldar army with full scatterbike line-up.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Terminators can deepstrike. Think.

You think terminators are an answer to anything, let alone T6 Str D weapons (so the guns they have won't do anything) that can be flamers (remember, you'll be bunched up!)?
I'm curious to see this thinking.

He's suggesting to deepstrike the way they'd mishap. This way, you can prolong the arrival to not get tabled before the game ends. And it's allready a win.