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2020/02/27 06:59:56
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Insectum7 wrote: I think you're over complicating it. The thread isn't about the win rates of marines overall, it's about how "elite" (nu)marines as combatants feel in comparison to other main-line infantry. This bit about the Leviathan is a sideshow.
Right. Which is the point I'm trying to make, possibly not clearly enough.
Intercessors should be stronger one on one with most other troops, but not point for point. Troops are supposed to be the backbone of an army. But right now sm have a much stronger backbone than most. Intercessors don't feel like a waste of points like csm, or cultists. Many factions need to throw elite, fast attack, or heavy support options at them to have a good shot at winning a fight. I'm not arguing that intercessors are too good, it's that other factions troops are too bad.
And yeah, gaks complicated.
I agree with the first half, but your conclusion is weird to me. Other troops are too bad is obviously a relative statement. If you make other troops better, marines obviously won’t be as elite.
IMHO the problem is that there are so few variables left in the game that to make them elite they need to award them massive amounts of raw power. They cannot be simply better coordinated, because that means very little in game right now.
Lethality can be too high, specially with those rerolls. I guess you got jumped by a 30-40 attacks with rerolled super hammer time unit (ignores most armor and toughness isn’t a defense), game over avatar of khaine.
Why did banshees and scorpions do better, as I recall, in my editions? Because they got good initiative and were skilled fighters. Now, they just don’t have the raw stats to compete.
They shouldn't be head and shoulders more "elite" than troops in other elite armies on a points for points basis. Csm get stomped by intercessors. Chosen can hold their own, but their an elite option. It doesn't make sense that an elite army has to use its best infantry to handle another elite armies supposedly basic troops.
2020/02/27 07:04:09
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Banshees didn't do better. You're looking through rose tinted glasses there. Scorpions had the deployment shenanigans at least, but weren't exactly making any waves.
4+ save, weapons that ignore armor and I6 was definitely better than a save that's reduced to a 5+, AP -3 weapons and a system that allows whoevers turn it is to fight first. Not to mention bonus attacks and extra wounds on the marines they're pitted against.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Banshees didn't do better. You're looking through rose tinted glasses there. Scorpions had the deployment shenanigans at least, but weren't exactly making any waves.
4+ save, weapons that ignore armor and I6 was definitely better than a save that's reduced to a 5+, AP -3 weapons and a system that allows whoevers turn it is to fight first. Not to mention bonus attacks and extra wounds on the marines they're pitted against.
That’s right! Current close combat looks like a game of fishing for that gotcha! moment.
I don’t think some races were ported with care to the new systems.
2020/02/27 07:32:05
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Banshees didn't do better. You're looking through rose tinted glasses there. Scorpions had the deployment shenanigans at least, but weren't exactly making any waves.
4+ save, weapons that ignore armor and I6 was definitely better than a save that's reduced to a 5+, AP -3 weapons and a system that allows whoevers turn it is to fight first. Not to mention bonus attacks and extra wounds on the marines they're pitted against.
Except the 4+ save is more valuable now, and AP-3 is basically just as effective as it was before. Really the only thing lost was the I6, which is really just attacking first which is what happens when you charge anyway. In reality, they didn't become much different themselves as a unit.
The real issue is how hard it is to get to combat now and the fact anyone and their mother can escape it.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/02/27 07:35:32
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
It's pretty clear what Scotsman is trying to illustrate with his examples at the start of this thread.
Does anyone actually believe that Marines and in particular Intercessors are balanced right now? If the answer is 'no' then why are people picking bizarre, minor faults with the OP and using extreme, outlier examples to prove it wrong?
I get this is dakka, the place where we argue for the sake of it sometimes, but I'm still amazed at how contentious this thread has become.
That marines are not balanced doesn't mean intercessors are OP. Intercessors were 17 points in CA 2018. Beta Bolters came a month later. Shock Assault was a few weeks before supplements. Is it 5 extra S4 AP0 attacks that really tipped the boat for people?
It is kind of just soap boxing without a real desire to address the root issue.
I think the maths in the OP shows exactly why Intercessors themselves are OP. Perhaps Marines and Intercessors are OP?!
They feature in 99% of Marine lists, is that some weird coincidence? Are they literally just taken to fill troops slots? If so why aren't cheaper scouts and tacticals taken?
2020/02/27 07:38:44
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Banshees didn't do better. You're looking through rose tinted glasses there. Scorpions had the deployment shenanigans at least, but weren't exactly making any waves.
4+ save, weapons that ignore armor and I6 was definitely better than a save that's reduced to a 5+, AP -3 weapons and a system that allows whoevers turn it is to fight first. Not to mention bonus attacks and extra wounds on the marines they're pitted against.
Except the 4+ save is more valuable now, and AP-3 is basically just as effective as it was before. Really the only thing lost was the I6, which is really just attacking first which is what happens when you charge anyway. In reality, they didn't become much different themselves as a unit.
The real issue is how hard it is to get to combat now and the fact anyone and their mother can escape it.
Wrong for our unit-vs.modeling here on all accounts except fall back, but ok. Which brings up the old fall back rules, and how Banshees would easily catch fleeing units because of their I6. No mention of the 2A, 2W of Intercessors though.
It's pretty clear what Scotsman is trying to illustrate with his examples at the start of this thread.
Does anyone actually believe that Marines and in particular Intercessors are balanced right now? If the answer is 'no' then why are people picking bizarre, minor faults with the OP and using extreme, outlier examples to prove it wrong?
I get this is dakka, the place where we argue for the sake of it sometimes, but I'm still amazed at how contentious this thread has become.
That marines are not balanced doesn't mean intercessors are OP. Intercessors were 17 points in CA 2018. Beta Bolters came a month later. Shock Assault was a few weeks before supplements. Is it 5 extra S4 AP0 attacks that really tipped the boat for people?
It is kind of just soap boxing without a real desire to address the root issue.
I think the maths in the OP shows exactly why Intercessors themselves are OP. Perhaps Marines and Intercessors are OP?!
They feature in 99% of Marine lists, is that some weird coincidence? Are they literally just taken to fill troops slots? If so why aren't cheaper scouts and tacticals taken?
Because they're the strongest option. Intercessors can compete with many elite options from other armies. Taking them is just as good for sm players as elite, fast attack, or heavy support options for other factions. So they fill troops slots while keeping points and other foc slots open, further expanding marine's already huge variety of choices. They're a "tax" unit that isn't really a tax. (Course I'm speaking to the choir here).
2020/02/27 08:11:30
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
I suspect the OP was referring to Primaris as the defining ‘Marines’, rightly or wrongly.
Marines (generally) should feel elite, at least to Imperial players. Xenos players could care less if they were elite or not - they just make it seem as if humanity finally ‘stepped up to the plate’.
People being the beasts they are, there will always be a ‘disconnect’ between the fluff and table top performance. Problems arise when the game fails to balance these two. While it is easy to present a Marine as elite on a model for model basis, games are theoretically balanced by a points system. So the elite status is off set by numbers of enemy, and the Marines don’t feel elite, because they are overwhelmed. The Marine tactics of the surgical strike on an unprepared enemy is not able to be represented on the table top. Cue weeping, wailing etc.
Rather than buff Marines, I would look at using things like deployment options, off board artillery strikes and degrading the opposing command and control as ways of off setting an opponents numerical advantage.
2020/02/27 08:15:58
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Moriarty wrote: I suspect the OP was referring to Primaris as the defining ‘Marines’, rightly or wrongly.
Marines (generally) should feel elite, at least to Imperial players. Xenos players could care less if they were elite or not - they just make it seem as if humanity finally ‘stepped up to the plate’.
People being the beasts they are, there will always be a ‘disconnect’ between the fluff and table top performance. Problems arise when the game fails to balance these two. While it is easy to present a Marine as elite on a model for model basis, games are theoretically balanced by a points system. So the elite status is off set by numbers of enemy, and the Marines don’t feel elite, because they are overwhelmed. The Marine tactics of the surgical strike on an unprepared enemy is not able to be represented on the table top. Cue weeping, wailing etc.
Rather than buff Marines, I would look at using things like deployment options, off board artillery strikes and degrading the opposing command and control as ways of off setting an opponents numerical advantage.
^That's why Drop Pod marines are the best marines .
But that Aura bubble stuff suuuux, even if it does make your army look like cover illustrations; a dwindling huddle of marines around a character or two and the occasional banner.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I think the maths in the OP shows exactly why Intercessors themselves are OP. Perhaps Marines and Intercessors are OP?!
They feature in 99% of Marine lists, is that some weird coincidence? Are they literally just taken to fill troops slots? If so why aren't cheaper scouts and tacticals taken?
Intercessors aren't taken in 99% of all SM lists though.
Ravenwing Black Knights [23 PL, 272pts]: 7x Ravenwing Black Knight [238pts]
. Ravenwing Huntmaster [34pts]: Corvus Hammer
. . Black Knight Bike: Plasma Talon
Ravenwing Black Knights [23 PL, 272pts]: 7x Ravenwing Black Knight [238pts]
. Ravenwing Huntmaster [34pts]: Corvus Hammer
. . Black Knight Bike: Plasma Talon
Ravenwing Darkshroud [7 PL, 138pts]: Heavy bolter [10pts]
++ Total: [124 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++
A recent top tier ITC list that uses the humble scout. I could also see Infiltrators being used if deep striking assault units are a meta-problem, though they can also make dropping onto an objective from reserves a nightmare as well.
2020/02/27 08:48:10
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
An Actual Englishman wrote: I think the maths in the OP shows exactly why Intercessors themselves are OP. Perhaps Marines and Intercessors are OP?!
They feature in 99% of Marine lists, is that some weird coincidence? Are they literally just taken to fill troops slots? If so why aren't cheaper scouts and tacticals taken?
Intercessors aren't taken in 99% of all SM lists though.
Ravenwing Black Knights [23 PL, 272pts]: 7x Ravenwing Black Knight [238pts]
. Ravenwing Huntmaster [34pts]: Corvus Hammer
. . Black Knight Bike: Plasma Talon
Ravenwing Black Knights [23 PL, 272pts]: 7x Ravenwing Black Knight [238pts]
. Ravenwing Huntmaster [34pts]: Corvus Hammer
. . Black Knight Bike: Plasma Talon
Ravenwing Darkshroud [7 PL, 138pts]: Heavy bolter [10pts]
++ Total: [124 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++
A recent top tier ITC list that uses the humble scout. I could also see Infiltrators being used if deep striking assault units are a meta-problem, though they can also make dropping onto an objective from reserves a nightmare as well.
Huh. I thought Intercessors were fairly common in the current meta lists, not representative of a tiny portion of them. Good to learn.
2020/02/27 09:19:10
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Eonfuzz wrote: I mean, intecessors are basically 2W 30" Rubric Marines that are better in close combat. iirc Intercessors are also cheaper than Rubrics and can recieve more buffs than them
I think that kinda highlights how good they are
Bad example
Rubrics are cheaper than intercessors.
Also, they have an almost 4++ which is hard to pass these days.
Not to mention that they bring a deny and a power to the table.
(If you don't consider doctrines and count 1MW for the mini smite, rubrics actually outshoot intercessors Without assault doctrine intercessors are also outmeleed by rubrics)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/02/27 09:24:42
2020/02/27 09:32:19
Subject: Re:Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Funnily enough, in the early to mid era of 8th, when marine threads were everywhere i made an observation.
Namely the following. All good troop units at the time, (IS, Kabalites, Firewarriors to an extent, cultists,etc) dropped in price in the transition either from 7th to 8th or from Index to Codex.
On average somewhere in the realm of 15-30%.
I also postulated at the time that troops which remained at their pricepoint like tacs or CSM, etc would be bad, further i estimated that the CSMtac would need to be 10-11 pts to compete with the Cultists.
Which is funnily what happened.
Now to connotate this with another observation, i am one of those mad enough to run a CSM horde. Comparatively to those former good Troop units they perform wonderfully. (not to mention bolter discipline and the melee buff nor Red Corsairs). Not overly oprressive not overly wastefull.
The real issue really starts to appear when we add in traits and supplements. So is a Red corsair list allready head above a normal CSm dex 2.0 ( 1.5 really) in it's use off CSM.
Normally though CSM add ons are regarded to be necessary but also only focus on 1-2 Key units and charachters to work. (Which is funnily enough what leads to the absurd situation of Stacking tactics that can be relatively easily counterplayed in most cases at the cost of regular inefectivness.)
Contrast those specific build buffs with the generalist buffs marines recived and you get a general idea.
The issue was CSM / Tac/ SM Troops in general, underperformed. GW fixed one side, (CSM, somewhat) and broke the other side of the equation completely (thanks supplements.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/27 10:04:24
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/02/27 09:38:34
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
An Actual Englishman wrote: I think the maths in the OP shows exactly why Intercessors themselves are OP. Perhaps Marines and Intercessors are OP?!
They feature in 99% of Marine lists, is that some weird coincidence? Are they literally just taken to fill troops slots? If so why aren't cheaper scouts and tacticals taken?
Intercessors aren't taken in 99% of all SM lists though.
Ravenwing Black Knights [23 PL, 272pts]: 7x Ravenwing Black Knight [238pts]
. Ravenwing Huntmaster [34pts]: Corvus Hammer
. . Black Knight Bike: Plasma Talon
Ravenwing Black Knights [23 PL, 272pts]: 7x Ravenwing Black Knight [238pts]
. Ravenwing Huntmaster [34pts]: Corvus Hammer
. . Black Knight Bike: Plasma Talon
Ravenwing Darkshroud [7 PL, 138pts]: Heavy bolter [10pts]
++ Total: [124 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++
A recent top tier ITC list that uses the humble scout. I could also see Infiltrators being used if deep striking assault units are a meta-problem, though they can also make dropping onto an objective from reserves a nightmare as well.
Huh. I thought Intercessors were fairly common in the current meta lists, not representative of a tiny portion of them. Good to learn.
Don't know we're that data's coming from. But ALL the marine lists that made it to the LVO top 8 had intercessors. The winning list had six squads of them.
2020/02/27 09:44:29
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
You need 6 troops. More than one or 2 scouts are literally tax without any functions. Tac marines are bad. Infliltrators can be nice, but still in limited numbers due to the high cost.
No matter what you do, you WILL have intercessors, and that's even before considering that they are actually a really good troop.
2020/02/27 09:52:24
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Banshees didn't do better. You're looking through rose tinted glasses there. Scorpions had the deployment shenanigans at least, but weren't exactly making any waves.
4+ save, weapons that ignore armor and I6 was definitely better than a save that's reduced to a 5+, AP -3 weapons and a system that allows whoevers turn it is to fight first. Not to mention bonus attacks and extra wounds on the marines they're pitted against.
Except the 4+ save is more valuable now, and AP-3 is basically just as effective as it was before. Really the only thing lost was the I6, which is really just attacking first which is what happens when you charge anyway. In reality, they didn't become much different themselves as a unit.
The real issue is how hard it is to get to combat now and the fact anyone and their mother can escape it.
Wrong for our unit-vs.modeling here on all accounts except fall back, but ok. Which brings up the old fall back rules, and how Banshees would easily catch fleeing units because of their I6. No mention of the 2A, 2W of Intercessors though.
Again, I agree.
Right now the game has lost game mechanics in favor of rerolls and more dice. Initiative and defens made melee combat more nuanced, and allowed for units to differentiate themselves across more dimensions. Right now, some of the old more specialized melees have lost their advantages (initiative, highgly skilled defense) without enough return in special rules and rerolls. This means that they lose to intercessors because intercessors were buffed in raw power. That aside, how freaking absurd it is that melee has become a matter of getting the charge to win. Charges should be a bit of an advantage, but not the end of it all!
The other issue is how shooty some armies are, such as marines (and specially IH, of course). From the bolter rapid fire era to assault 3. Bolter rapid fire favored close quarters fights with a combination of melee and shooting. Assault 3 just favors sitting in the edge of the map and falling back out of melee. It does not reward more nuanced gameplay.
Some armies are stuck in tactics of that era without much support to bring them to current time relevance. For example, guard FRFSRF was good in an era when getting closer maximized shooting output. However, if you face against someone who is happy to shoot you from far away it is wasted potential.
Marines are currently better because their old line is not updated to modern mechanics. Rather, they have new miniatures conceived in this new era (and with modern rules in mind) which make up an increasingly large fraction of the marine range. Since old miniatures (eldar melee, I looked at it and felt so sad) are simply being ported (and not well), they are falling behind in power.
2020/02/27 10:18:22
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Banshees didn't do better. You're looking through rose tinted glasses there. Scorpions had the deployment shenanigans at least, but weren't exactly making any waves.
4+ save, weapons that ignore armor and I6 was definitely better than a save that's reduced to a 5+, AP -3 weapons and a system that allows whoevers turn it is to fight first. Not to mention bonus attacks and extra wounds on the marines they're pitted against.
Except the 4+ save is more valuable now, and AP-3 is basically just as effective as it was before. Really the only thing lost was the I6, which is really just attacking first which is what happens when you charge anyway. In reality, they didn't become much different themselves as a unit.
The real issue is how hard it is to get to combat now and the fact anyone and their mother can escape it.
Wrong for our unit-vs.modeling here on all accounts except fall back, but ok. Which brings up the old fall back rules, and how Banshees would easily catch fleeing units because of their I6. No mention of the 2A, 2W of Intercessors though.
Again, I agree.
Right now the game has lost game mechanics in favor of rerolls and more dice. Initiative and defens made melee combat more nuanced, and allowed for units to differentiate themselves across more dimensions. Right now, some of the old more specialized melees have lost their advantages (initiative, highgly skilled defense) without enough return in special rules and rerolls. This means that they lose to intercessors because intercessors were buffed in raw power. That aside, how freaking absurd it is that melee has become a matter of getting the charge to win. Charges should be a bit of an advantage, but not the end of it all!
The other issue is how shooty some armies are, such as marines (and specially IH, of course). From the bolter rapid fire era to assault 3. Bolter rapid fire favored close quarters fights with a combination of melee and shooting. Assault 3 just favors sitting in the edge of the map and falling back out of melee. It does not reward more nuanced gameplay.
Some armies are stuck in tactics of that era without much support to bring them to current time relevance. For example, guard FRFSRF was good in an era when getting closer maximized shooting output. However, if you face against someone who is happy to shoot you from far away it is wasted potential.
Marines are currently better because their old line is not updated to modern mechanics. Rather, they have new miniatures conceived in this new era (and with modern rules in mind) which make up an increasingly large fraction of the marine range. Since old miniatures (eldar melee, I looked at it and felt so sad) are simply being ported (and not well), they are falling behind in power.
I hope im not misunderstanding you but the actual mini has very little impact on power level. Any mini can be given rules to make them competitive. GW does not choose to do this. For whatever reason (insert theory here).
2020/02/27 10:31:53
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Table wrote: I hope im not misunderstanding you but the actual mini has very little impact on power level. Any mini can be given rules to make them competitive. GW does not choose to do this. For whatever reason (insert theory here).
Of course, but it is more likely that a new sculpt is given rules in accordance to current power level and design philosophy. Old sculpts already had rules and often they just tweak them a bit between editions.
For example, terminators. Are terminators equivalent in current power to what they were when they were first released? I'd argue that that role is filled by centurions more than by terminators. Terminators didn't get much new stuff, just updates to their gear. Centurions were designed to be tougher for their era, based on what was available in the battlefield.
The result is that, GK paladins aside, I have yet to see a competitive list that fields terminators. But I do see Centurions being used by ome lists (e.g. RG).
2020/02/27 10:37:34
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
flandarz wrote: It's certainly better internal balance than any other Codex has.
Necron internal balance is great, the Monolith and Obelisk are really bad and a few units are a little bad, but overall pretty good with few units that are massively better than the alternatives. I don't think a competitive meta will ever not boil down to 1-3 lists or tactics per faction. Starcraft 1 is said to have been amazingly balanced, but did it have a hundred different build-paths? If any Starcraft Veterans are here I'd like to know.
Grey40k wrote: Why did banshees and scorpions do better, as I recall, in my editions? Because they got good initiative and were skilled fighters. Now, they just don’t have the raw stats to compete.
Banshees are better now than they were previously because the Fight phase has mechanics that makes melee worthwhile. If you're thinking as far back as AP2 power weapons then Banshees might have been an important asset against certain units. If you have enough Movement value to get the charge Initiative is irrelevant, if you're stopping a couple inches short after a failed charge your initiative is irrelevant as you die to shooting. I'm happy it's gone, maybe that's because my melee units don't get clubbed before they do something if I'm pressing the attack. Banshees lack good stratagems like +1 to wound and fight twice, relying instead on psychic powers more effectively used in combination with ranged attacks. One thing to remember is that a couple of dead Banshees could lead to a useless unit of Banshees next turn.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Banshees didn't do better. You're looking through rose tinted glasses there. Scorpions had the deployment shenanigans at least, but weren't exactly making any waves.
4+ save, weapons that ignore armor and I6 was definitely better than a save that's reduced to a 5+, AP -3 weapons and a system that allows whoevers turn it is to fight first. Not to mention bonus attacks and extra wounds on the marines they're pitted against.
Forgetting the +2 M, Banshees still have a 4+ Sv, if you were to port Primaris back to 7th they'd be AP 4 so the 5+ (or 6+ if your opponent is in the right Doctrine) is better than what you would have had. Necron Gauss Immortals were pretty much the exact same as Intercessors are today, 4+ FNP translates to 2W and 24" S5 RF vs 30" SE4 RF, their only lacks were bolter discipline and +1 atk in the first round of combat. Maybe you just weren't playing against competitive lists with your Howling Banshees, not that I fault you that would be horrible. The old morale rules were horrible, you might think the new tri-point rules and tagging is bad, but pulling off more than a dozen Warriors after less than half a dozen died was stupid.
You need 6 troops. More than one or 2 scouts are literally tax without any functions. Tac marines are bad. Infliltrators can be nice, but still in limited numbers due to the high cost.
No matter what you do, you WILL have intercessors, and that's even before considering that they are actually a really good troop.
If they weren't pts effective (CP included) they wouldn't get brought and people would bring a Battalion of Scouts or no Troops at all, we've seen that work for some competitive armies. You're not bringing 6 copies of a unit just because, it's doing something for your list. I've played a couple of games with 6x5 Intercessors and they haven't really been amazing. I have been playing against more or less perfect counter lists and victory was only denied me based on games going to turn 7 in the two last games I used them in so maybe I would have seen how truly amazing they are under different circumstances or if my list was tailored differently. I didn't really find Flesh Tearers to be any stronger or weaker than Necrons and I beat BA with my Necrons just a couple of games ago and have been beating Marines the majority of the games I've played against them since their rework (although I took a short hiatus before the first IH nerf).
Comparing Intercessors to 1W models is a little hard because 2 W does not equal twice as durable as 1W except against 1D weapons. Increasing the cost of the best Intercessor weapon for each Chapter by 1 would be a good idea I think. If you want to run heavy BA Intercessors or Assault IH Intercessors I think you're punishing yourself enough already, no need to further increase the pts cost.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/27 10:39:05
2020/02/27 10:49:20
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Banshees are better now than they were previously because the Fight phase has mechanics that makes melee worthwhile. If you're thinking as far back as AP2 power weapons then Banshees might have been an important asset against certain units.
I am refering to 2nd and 3rd edition. If we were to compute the melee point efficiency of banshees in those editions against marines and now (say intercessors) I am sure you would find a big difference.
have been beating Marines the majority of the games I've played against them since their rework (although I took a short hiatus before the first IH nerf).
I am sorry, but what we as individuals accomplish in some specific tables is irrelevant. IH win rates are there for everyone to check and l2p is not a valid answer. Those win rates indicate that the rules are not good; in fact they are really bad. Besides win rates, marines are super prevalent and IH do extremely well (almost never finish last positions of tourney). So thisis not just a few players getting a lot of victories.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/27 10:49:38
2020/02/27 12:08:57
Subject: Re:Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
My hearth really sunk when i saw 2 units of intercessors slaughtered two of Sean Naydes`s Spears units.
It`s not normal that shooting units just destroy everything in close combat just because they get extra attacks for free, they should rly get the extra attack when they charge.
2020/02/27 12:26:45
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
It's pretty clear what Scotsman is trying to illustrate with his examples at the start of this thread.
Does anyone actually believe that Marines and in particular Intercessors are balanced right now? If the answer is 'no' then why are people picking bizarre, minor faults with the OP and using extreme, outlier examples to prove it wrong?
I get this is dakka, the place where we argue for the sake of it sometimes, but I'm still amazed at how contentious this thread has become.
That marines are not balanced doesn't mean intercessors are OP. Intercessors were 17 points in CA 2018. Beta Bolters came a month later. Shock Assault was a few weeks before supplements. Is it 5 extra S4 AP0 attacks that really tipped the boat for people?
It is kind of just soap boxing without a real desire to address the root issue.
I think the maths in the OP shows exactly why Intercessors themselves are OP.
Why? You've got three units that are the melee backbone of their respective (sub-)factions that handily beat the Intercessions, two melee units that haven't been viable for (at least) four editions that don't, one melee unit that straight up loses (Harlequins) and one that still wins if they can make it in enough numbers (Genestealers). Is this some Orkoid maths that the rest of us aren't green enough to understand?
EDIT: By all means, buff Striking Scorpions and (especially!) Howling Banshee so that they actually work. Expand Harlequins so they have actual options. Give Nids something to give them a better chance. While we're at it, do the same to Assault Marines, Kroot, Bloodcrushers, Nobz, and a bunch of other melee units that have been sub-par the entire edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/27 12:39:42
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2020/02/27 12:56:34
Subject: Re:Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
One (Elite) unit that does seem to fair pretty well against Intercessors (on a purely theorycrafting basis) are Bullgryn with Brute shields. Since they cost 42 Points each I would compare 4 of them (164 Points) against 10 Intercessors (170) split in two units with chainswords on their sergants (cause why not). I factor in Bolter Discipline and Shock assault but not Doctrines etc.
Assuming they jump out of a chimera and make the charge (which was more or less the assumption of the initial examples):
The Bullgryns take 20 x 1/6 x 1/3 x 1/3 = 0.37 damage from Overwatch (which is negligble)
IG Turn: Bullgryns kill 17 x 2/3 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 3.77 of the intercessors
The remaining 7 intercessors hit back with 25 x 2/3 x 1/3 x 1/6 = 0.93 wounds (so together with Overwatch cause the first wound to the big Boys
SM Turn: the Intercessors shoot their pistols 7 x 2/3 x 1/3 x 1/6 = 0.26 (again neglible)
The do another 18 x 2/3 x 1/3 x 1/6 = 0.66 wounds in their fight phase, still not killing their first Bullgryn
The Bullgryns hit back: 13 x 2/3 x 2/3 x 1/2= 2.89 wounds, finishing of the first squad and killing the first guy from the second
IG Turn: The Bullgryns hit again for another 2.89 wounds, leaving only the last sergant standing.
between pistol Shooting and his CC attacks, the Sergant causes 0.19 wounds and is killed in the next round
=> I'm not 100% sure if I did it completely correct, for example I'm not sure if the Intercessors still profit from shock assault in their turn, but it does not really Change much on the outcome. It also does not make much difference, if the Intercessors charge first.
What is my take from that? Purely looking at the CC abbility of troops/elites, while the Intercessors have really a s***load of attacks for a shooty troop choice the use of those attacks fades extremely against durable Units (like T5, sv2+ Bullgryns).
BUT: I'm still of the opinion that the CC troop choices mentioned in the initial post should perform much better against a shooty troop choice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/27 12:57:37
~8700 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
2020/02/27 13:07:58
Subject: Re:Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Pyroalchi wrote: One (Elite) unit that does seem to fair pretty well against Intercessors (on a purely theorycrafting basis) are Bullgryn with Brute shields. Since they cost 42 Points each I would compare 4 of them (164 Points) against 10 Intercessors (170) split in two units with chainswords on their sergants (cause why not). I factor in Bolter Discipline and Shock assault but not Doctrines etc.
Assuming they jump out of a chimera and make the charge (which was more or less the assumption of the initial examples):
The Bullgryns take 20 x 1/6 x 1/3 x 1/3 = 0.37 damage from Overwatch (which is negligble)
IG Turn: Bullgryns kill 17 x 2/3 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 3.77 of the intercessors
The remaining 7 intercessors hit back with 25 x 2/3 x 1/3 x 1/6 = 0.93 wounds (so together with Overwatch cause the first wound to the big Boys
SM Turn: the Intercessors shoot their pistols 7 x 2/3 x 1/3 x 1/6 = 0.26 (again neglible)
The do another 18 x 2/3 x 1/3 x 1/6 = 0.66 wounds in their fight phase, still not killing their first Bullgryn
The Bullgryns hit back: 13 x 2/3 x 2/3 x 1/2= 2.89 wounds, finishing of the first squad and killing the first guy from the second
IG Turn: The Bullgryns hit again for another 2.89 wounds, leaving only the last sergant standing.
between pistol Shooting and his CC attacks, the Sergant causes 0.19 wounds and is killed in the next round
=> I'm not 100% sure if I did it completely correct, for example I'm not sure if the Intercessors still profit from shock assault in their turn, but it does not really Change much on the outcome. It also does not make much difference, if the Intercessors charge first.
What is my take from that? Purely looking at the CC abbility of troops/elites, while the Intercessors have really a s***load of attacks for a shooty troop choice the use of those attacks fades extremely against durable Units (like T5, sv2+ Bullgryns).
BUT: I'm still of the opinion that the CC troop choices mentioned in the initial post should perform much better against a shooty troop choice.
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To much fantasy, SM could kill the chimera and 2-3 Bullgryns die during disembark. You usually don`t want such expensive units in transport that can be blasted.
2020/02/27 13:08:55
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Yeah, they do worse the closer you get to a marine statline.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/02/27 13:15:44
Subject: Re:Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
It looks like you can never go back to it either. So armies that were tuned to use the devastator doctrin and not tactical or assault lost a lot, because you can very well sit in tactical for multiple turns.
It is going to be interesting to see how this impacts the units people take, and what chapters are going to be run.
I feel sad for those people that emptied GW store houses out of old and costly centurion models, only to have them return to how their were pre new sm codex.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
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~8700 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200 
