Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
It really feels like a lot of you are missing the 'Dedicated' part of 'Dedicated Transport'.

If you weren't taking the transport for the purpose of putting something inside it, then you were just abusing the rules and not following the intent.

I'm not sorry if GW hurt your feeling by making you use transports as, y'know, transports.

I kindly invite you to have a look at the rules for the guard's Hades Breaching Drill.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
So you haven't bothered to play with your Necrons, got it.

Yea, I have. A ton. I have lengthy discussions about Necrons on this forum and ran a ton of lists through TTS before buying models.

When's the last time you played again?

About 8 months ago for Necrons. 4 months otherwise.

And if you actually have, you'd not be defending this nerf to the Ghost Ark as hard as you are LOL

EviscerationPlague wrote:
And if you actually have, you'd not be defending this nerf to the Ghost Ark as hard as you are LOL

Except that's exactly how I use Ghost Arks, because I have technos for blob rez.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
It really feels like a lot of you are missing the 'Dedicated' part of 'Dedicated Transport'.

If you weren't taking the transport for the purpose of putting something inside it, then you were just abusing the rules and not following the intent.

I'm not sorry if GW hurt your feeling by making you use transports as, y'know, transports.

I kindly invite you to have a look at the rules for the guard's Hades Breaching Drill.

Haha how's the wording in ca22? Might the hades auto destuct now?

 xttz wrote:
Apologies for interrupting the Internet slap fight, but here are the Tyranid point changes from reliable sources on the Tyranid & GSC Discords who have leaked previous codex details:

Broodlord -10
Hive tyrants +20 (weapons increased too)
Old one eye +15
Swarmy + 20
Winged tyrant - +20 (weapons increased too)

Warriors - +5 (weapons increased too)

Deathleper - +25
Maleceptor +50
Pyrovore +10
Raveners +5

Carnifex +15
Exocrine +30
Screamer killers +15
Thornback +15
Tyrannofex ***

Tyrannocyte +10
Harpy +15 (weapons increased too)

HVC are +5pts to their current costs

*** Tyrannofex is listed in the preview PDF as 110pts. This is almost certainly a typo for 210pts, which would be a +40pt increase.

This is why you dont' have to have a codex come out and dominate so hard. This is a pretty large overcorrection to the codex.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

You don't know what the Ghost Ark is for then.
Ghost Arks aren't rhinos. They aren't primarily for transport, they're for healing your warrior blobs. It's why you can only repair warriors and why you can repair warriors outside of Ghost Arks.
It's why there's a repair rule that only heals an embarked unit up to the transport cap; you would embark a heavily damaged squad into the ark, heal it up to 10 and return it to the field to be repaired by the Ark's aura and other means.

The GA is an ambulance, it is not an IFV or APC. Making a rule that forces you to embark a healthy squad into a GA undermines its purpose and indirectly nerfs it, as you have to pay for additional squad of warriors to take a vehicle to support your warrior blobs. It was already an expensive (yet effective) combo before the change, now I'm not sure if it's viable.

No. That's what YOU think they should work like.

A 10 man in a super durable transport that flies makes for a really great objective capper that can heal it's own fairly durable infantry.

You are mixing taking a 20 man to do damage against a 10 man to play the mission.

No, this is a terrible change. 10 Mans in a GA have not been viable nearly the entire edition due to how easy it is to kill them and knock out RP. The Ghost Ark was primarily used for healing and move blocking and made sense with a 20 man change. This is a stupid change, and they should increase the capacity of the Ghost Ark if they want to do this.

 Sasori wrote:

This is why you dont' have to have a codex come out and dominate so hard. This is a pretty large overcorrection to the codex.

Kinda.

While I don't agree with some of the changes (Maleceptor, Swarmlord, OOE and Thornback), the codex is still one of the top tier ones even with these changes, even if they no longer are the codex to beat.

I guess we'll see. I'm not entirely sure its an overcorrection to a faction with a 65% win rate.

Certain builds (like the Hydra one that got 2nd I think in a big tournament a few weeks back) would be barely effected.

tneva82 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:


I like the new rule, maybe fielding empty transports was not really "abuse" but it's definitely a gamey mechanic, and I'm glad it's gone.

Ironically deploying outside is one of the most realistic most makes sense ways to use them if you think how transports are used

They should really have made it so that you have to deploy the squad within a certain distance of their transport. Not this hard limit of "do what we say or die."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

You don't know what the Ghost Ark is for then.
Ghost Arks aren't rhinos. They aren't primarily for transport, they're for healing your warrior blobs. It's why you can only repair warriors and why you can repair warriors outside of Ghost Arks.
It's why there's a repair rule that only heals an embarked unit up to the transport cap; you would embark a heavily damaged squad into the ark, heal it up to 10 and return it to the field to be repaired by the Ark's aura and other means.

The GA is an ambulance, it is not an IFV or APC. Making a rule that forces you to embark a healthy squad into a GA undermines its purpose and indirectly nerfs it, as you have to pay for additional squad of warriors to take a vehicle to support your warrior blobs. It was already an expensive (yet effective) combo before the change, now I'm not sure if it's viable.

No. That's what YOU think they should work like.

A 10 man in a super durable transport that flies makes for a really great objective capper that can heal it's own fairly durable infantry.

You are mixing taking a 20 man to do damage against a 10 man to play the mission.

Too bad that's how literally everyone else used the Ghost Ark since it's inception then, and that's literally the purpose of the GA.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
In what world is having a unit not inside its transport at the start of the game "abusing the rules"? That's just mental!

And if GW wanted them to be dedicated transports, then they'd go back to the way it was in editions prior to 8th, where a transport was purchased (READ: dedicated) to a specific unit, and no other unit could ride in it.

When you're a transport for a unit that can't get into it.

They can get into as a transport when they take damage. Because if you followed the history of the Ghost Ark, that's how it was used. A squad takes enough damage for it be able to enter the vehicle, it gets repaired by the Ghost Arks passenger repair rule (which no longer exists) until it reaches 10 models, and it goes back in.
That is literally the purpose, intent and fluff of the GA.

And don't "but muh dedicated transport tho" me.
Dedicated Transports stopped being a thing when they changed it from a unit upgrade to something that you can take for each unit of infantry. Dedicated Transport stopped being a thing when they changed it so that any unit can use it, not just the unit it was bought for. Dedicated transport is just a term that's recycled from prior editions, the "dedicated" part of it has no meaning anymore. It's just a vehicle that doesn't fit into the force org chart that units can ride around it, without them being "bound" to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
The ghost ark is a repair centre but is in necron novels being used as a straight up transport as well iirc.

I understand it appears wonky because it has supplemental rules for units near it, but it's primary purpose is/was a transport, changing it to a different slot might solve that more eloquently though, but I dare say it would see even less use then if it robs a slot.

Ultimately yes, if you want a ghost ark, take a unit of 10 warriors and your blob of 20, at least then once the 20 gets below 10 you can hotswap as needed or keep reaper models in the ark while the flayer guys move up etc.

Not correct. Codex says the ghost ark is a repair barge that repairs warriors on the battlefield and can be pressed into service as a conventional transport if needed. Its primary purpose since arriving in the game was to repair units. Transport has always been just something it can do if needed.

The "fix" to the game is stupid with regards to transports. They are already accounted for with the points or power level system. If they wanted to prevent spamming empty transports they could have just given them a maximum amount like they had in other editions. But needing to be in a transport or it implodes is dumb and people shouldn't spend so much energy trying to defend dumb ideas.

It's nothing to do with fluff or points etc. It's almost 100% just to do with the stalling deployment via having more drops and loading up the transport t1. Re: ghost ark I said in my post they should just move It's slot.

If that was the issue they could just make you deploy the unit and transport at the same time. Wasn't that a rule at some point?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
And if you actually have, you'd not be defending this nerf to the Ghost Ark as hard as you are LOL

Except that's exactly how I use Ghost Arks, because I have technos for blob rez.

Nobody cares and literally everyone else is telling you that you're wrong about the Ghost Ark. I doubt you played with Necrons based on these comments.

tneva82 wrote:
Haha how's the wording in ca22? Might the hades auto destuct now?

Models never embarked the drill. They basically "deepstrike" behind it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Nobody cares and literally everyone else is telling you that you're wrong about the Ghost Ark. I doubt you played with Necrons based on these comments.

Three people = literally everyone. Good to know.

I guess all these armies in TTS are for gaks and giggles:

Tyel wrote:
I guess we'll see. I'm not entirely sure its an overcorrection to a faction with a 65% win rate.

Certain builds (like the Hydra one that got 2nd I think in a big tournament a few weeks back) would be barely effected.

Yeah Tyranids have a fairly deep codex, and I think even with these changes we'll still see other approaches that get win rates of 55-60%

There probably is a little bit of overcorrection here though. The Maleceptor would have been fine at 200pts following the FAQ changes. Swarmlord didn't need the same increase as regular hive tyrants given that they were already far more popular. I'd also have preferred Warrior increases to go onto DS/BS weapons so that other wargear options had a niche.
At the same time the Harpy change likely doesn't go far enough, and could easily rise another 10-20pts.

Does anybody have anything useful: Namely NUMBERS?

The final Nid leaks are nice but if EVERY leak we've seen is missing as many as the Nids were before this batch, this is going to be a VERY busy week for listbuilders and I'm VERY MUCH here for it.

Does anyone know when the actual point changes will be released? I'm not quite on the pulse of 40k releases as I used to be and got super confused that they released a chapter approved but no points changes?

Radikus wrote:
Does anyone know when the actual point changes will be released? I'm not quite on the pulse of 40k releases as I used to be and got super confused that they released a chapter approved but no points changes?

I'd expect Sat when the chapter approved is in the wild, rather than up for preorder.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Radikus wrote:
Does anyone know when the actual point changes will be released? I'm not quite on the pulse of 40k releases as I used to be and got super confused that they released a chapter approved but no points changes?

I'd expect Sat when the chapter approved is in the wild, rather than up for preorder.

Awesome, thank you for the response.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
And if you actually have, you'd not be defending this nerf to the Ghost Ark as hard as you are LOL

Except that's exactly how I use Ghost Arks, because I have technos for blob rez.

Nobody cares and literally everyone else is telling you that you're wrong about the Ghost Ark. I doubt you played with Necrons based on these comments.

You really need to chill, there's no need for the sheer aggression you put into these posts.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Radikus wrote:
Does anyone know when the actual point changes will be released? I'm not quite on the pulse of 40k releases as I used to be and got super confused that they released a chapter approved but no points changes?

I'd expect Sat when the chapter approved is in the wild, rather than up for preorder.

I don't think GW have ever published rules on a weekend before. Friday is more likely imo, although really it could be any day this week.

Yikes... those Tyranid point increases are insane. +30 on the Exocrine? The Hive Tyrants continue to pay more and more just for existing. +50 on the Maleceptor despite the nerfing it got in the FAQ.

And increasing the points for Warriors? Are you kidding me? The biggest problem with Warriors is that, due to them having no weapon costs outside of Heavy Weapons, you always take the best choice. By increasing their cost rather than assigning costs to their specific weapons you have just guaranteed that people will always take the best option because now taking anything less would be a waste of those extra points.

And all the while they're fine with Termagants being 7 points a piece. Even with Armour of Contempt being a thing.

Makes the first 'Nid list I brought from that Codex 125 points more than it was.

 Blackie wrote:
I like the new rule, maybe fielding empty transports was not really "abuse" but it's definitely a gamey mechanic, and I'm glad it's gone.

It doesn't even make conceptual/narrative sense. Every transport is always full at the start of a battle? Every battle starts right at the exact moment when everyone got there in their transports? Even forces defending fortifications have to get in their transports before getting out and manning the walls?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yikes... those Tyranid point increases are insane. +30 on the Exocrine? The Hive Tyrants continue to pay more and more just for existing. +50 on the Maleceptor despite the nerfing it got in the FAQ.

And increasing the points for Warriors? Are you kidding me? The biggest problem with Warriors is that, due to them having no weapon costs outside of Heavy Weapons, you always take the best choice. By increasing their cost rather than assigning costs to their specific weapons you have just guaranteed that people will always take the best option because now taking anything less would be a waste of those extra points.

 Blackie wrote:
I like the new rule, maybe fielding empty transports was not really "abuse" but it's definitely a gamey mechanic, and I'm glad it's gone.

It doesn't even make conceptual/narrative sense. Every transport is always full at the start of a battle? Every battle starts right at the exact moment when everyone got there in their transports? Even forces defending fortifications have to get in their transports before getting out and manning the walls?

While the changes are certainly inelegant, I wouldn't call them 'insane'. The army has a pretty consistent 65%+ winrate and units that are so good that the next best thing in the book is STILL OP.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yikes... those Tyranid point increases are insane. +30 on the Exocrine? The Hive Tyrants continue to pay more and more just for existing. +50 on the Maleceptor despite the nerfing it got in the FAQ.

And increasing the points for Warriors? Are you kidding me? The biggest problem with Warriors is that, due to them having no weapon costs outside of Heavy Weapons, you always take the best choice. By increasing their cost rather than assigning costs to their specific weapons you have just guaranteed that people will always take the best option because now taking anything less would be a waste of those extra points.

 Blackie wrote:
I like the new rule, maybe fielding empty transports was not really "abuse" but it's definitely a gamey mechanic, and I'm glad it's gone.

It doesn't even make conceptual/narrative sense. Every transport is always full at the start of a battle? Every battle starts right at the exact moment when everyone got there in their transports? Even forces defending fortifications have to get in their transports before getting out and manning the walls?

Every transport will spontaneously explode if there's no one inside of it as soon as combat starts? Its just an inelegant rule.
All they had to do was say "every dedicated transport must either have an infantry unit in it or within close proximity." That's all it needed, not that instant kill nonsense.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Every transport will spontaneously explode if there's no one inside of it as soon as combat starts? Its just an inelegant rule.
All they had to do was say "every dedicated transport must either have an infantry unit in it or within close proximity." That's all it needed, not that instant kill nonsense.

But GW wouldn't know nuance if it came up and bit 'em in the face...

 xttz wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I guess we'll see. I'm not entirely sure its an overcorrection to a faction with a 65% win rate.

Certain builds (like the Hydra one that got 2nd I think in a big tournament a few weeks back) would be barely effected.

Yeah Tyranids have a fairly deep codex, and I think even with these changes we'll still see other approaches that get win rates of 55-60%

There probably is a little bit of overcorrection here though. The Maleceptor would have been fine at 200pts following the FAQ changes. Swarmlord didn't need the same increase as regular hive tyrants given that they were already far more popular. I'd also have preferred Warrior increases to go onto DS/BS weapons so that other wargear options had a niche.
At the same time the Harpy change likely doesn't go far enough, and could easily rise another 10-20pts.

The tyranids list that took second at ACO has gone up 250 points, and notably runs the 2 extra relics/2 extra warlord traits alongside dual patrols meaning it would be starting at -2 CP.

There will be quite a lot of lists that need restructuring.

Tyel wrote:
I guess we'll see. I'm not entirely sure its an overcorrection to a faction with a 65% win rate.

Certain builds (like the Hydra one that got 2nd I think in a big tournament a few weeks back) would be barely effected.

The Hydra list goes up about 100 points from these changes, that's pretty significant.

This felt very scattershot with some of these Changes. Exocrenes and Tyrannofexes were not exactly tearing up the meta. Carnifexes getting a base increase + Plus HVC going up is probably too much.

I think hitting the major offenders + the CP changes would probably be enough to bring them down in combination with the other nerfs they had. I guess they just didn't want a Drukhari/Ad Mech situation again where they had to go through 3-4 nerf iterations to bring them down.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Every transport will spontaneously explode if there's no one inside of it as soon as combat starts? Its just an inelegant rule.
All they had to do was say "every dedicated transport must either have an infantry unit in it or within close proximity." That's all it needed, not that instant kill nonsense.

Hades will auto explode every game as it's supposed to have unit embarked or be destroyed yet doesn't have transport capacity so can't have unit embarked

So, taking a step back on the Dedicated Transports thing, a couple of questions...

A, What was the issue that was being seen that merited a fix of some form?
2, Was it a significant enough issue within GT play that a fix was required?
iii, If a fix was needed, did it need to be as broad as this, or was it specific units that needed looking at?

 Dysartes wrote:
So, taking a step back on the Dedicated Transports thing, a couple of questions...

A, What was the issue that was being seen that merited a fix of some form?
2, Was it a significant enough issue within GT play that a fix was required?
iii, If a fix was needed, did it need to be as broad as this, or was it specific units that needed looking at?

δ) There was a small problem with people spamming gunboat transports without any intention of using them as transports that could have been fixed with a scalpel, but GW opted for the vortex grenade instead.

 Sasori wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I guess we'll see. I'm not entirely sure its an overcorrection to a faction with a 65% win rate.

Certain builds (like the Hydra one that got 2nd I think in a big tournament a few weeks back) would be barely effected.

This felt very scattershot with some of these Changes. Exocrenes and Tyrannofexes were not exactly tearing up the meta. Carnifexes getting a base increase + Plus HVC going up is probably too much.

I noticed earlier that the new Tyrannofex points value is actually the same as the Tyrannocyte. It's possible that this one is a copy/paste error and the Tfex has changed by a different amount, or even hasn't changed at all

 Jidmah wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
So, taking a step back on the Dedicated Transports thing, a couple of questions...

A, What was the issue that was being seen that merited a fix of some form?
2, Was it a significant enough issue within GT play that a fix was required?
iii, If a fix was needed, did it need to be as broad as this, or was it specific units that needed looking at?

δ) There was a small problem with people spamming gunboat transports without any intention of using them as transports that could have been fixed with a scalpel, but GW opted for the vortex grenade instead.

tbf, gw only uses the scalpel when it buffs orks... -1 on boys ... the rest of the buff nerf instruments start damage and sizewise at the sledgehammer and only go bigger...

tneva82 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Every transport will spontaneously explode if there's no one inside of it as soon as combat starts? Its just an inelegant rule.
All they had to do was say "every dedicated transport must either have an infantry unit in it or within close proximity." That's all it needed, not that instant kill nonsense.

Hades will auto explode every game as it's supposed to have unit embarked or be destroyed yet doesn't have transport capacity so can't have unit embarked

Hence why my suggestion has the "within close proximity" clause, to catch esoteric cases like Ghost Arks and Hades.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
So, taking a step back on the Dedicated Transports thing, a couple of questions...

A, What was the issue that was being seen that merited a fix of some form?
2, Was it a significant enough issue within GT play that a fix was required?
iii, If a fix was needed, did it need to be as broad as this, or was it specific units that needed looking at?

δ) There was a small problem with people spamming gunboat transports without any intention of using them as transports that could have been fixed with a scalpel, but GW opted for the vortex grenade instead.

tbf, gw only uses the scalpel when it buffs orks... -1 on boys ... the rest of the buff nerf instruments start damage and sizewise at the sledgehammer and only go bigger...

Actual footage of the scalpel used to apply ork buffs:


To be fair, they undid some of the nerfs to the goff archetype which wasn't too shabby before and gave us some decent secondaries to go along with it.
-1 points mostly matters for beastsnaggas, gretchin and kommandoz, for pretty much all other units it's just a sign of good will, which is more than I expected anyways.

The foothorde list I was planning to play on Sunday would drop by 125 points, that's a full mob of whatever I want that I didn't have before.