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Expecting no combats in 40k is pretty hopeless anyway in proper board.

You are going to have to deal with combat. Idea of shooting enemy off board without them ever reaching combat works vs noobs and in planet bowling ball.

Oh, I agree. The point is that you have the enemy charge expendable units so that you can trade up in value. As long as that is happening then you should come out on top.

Quick question - would the corruption relic ignore abilities which change the first failed save to damage zero? Eg. Abaddon, helix gauntlet, impossible robe, etc.

I'm thinking it probably doesn't, but thought I'd ask here.

No, reducing the damage to zero is not an ability which ignores damage.

Before i would have agreed but now not sure. What's different with damage to 0 to damage -1 like dreadnoughts have that corruptor ignores?

Very simple. It only works when damage is reduced by a certain amount. There is even an example, duty eternal, which reduces damage by 1. Compare that to the wording of the corruption relic. There is no certain amount mentioned, and there is no reduction. The damage is changed to 0, very different from the wording of duty eternal.

IGNORING WOUNDS VS RULES THAT PREVENT MODELS FROM IGNORING WOUNDS

Some models have a rule that says that they cannot lose more than a specified number of wounds in the same phase/turn/battle round, and that any wounds that would be lost after that point are not lost. Similarly, some models have a rule that reduces damage suffered by a stated amount (e.g. Duty Eternal). In any of these cases, when such a model is attacked by a weapon or model with a rule that says that enemy models cannot use rules to ignore the wounds it loses, that rule takes precedence over the previous rule, and if that attack inflicts any damage on that model, it loses a number of wounds equal to the Damage characteristic of that attack, even if it has already lost the specified number of wounds already this phase/turn/battle round.

hey. list building advice request.

I know i've asked a few times, but im currently sat at about 1750 points of deamons and im not really sure what i want for that final 250 to get me to a 2k list.

I have the basics of a monster mash list, mainly cos i'd never played anything like it so i wanted to be the Big Stick wielder for once. I have:

Bela'kor
Bloodthrister (great axe)
bloodmaster
30 bloodletters
a trio of bloodcrushers
10 flesh hounds
and a Soul Grinder.

part of me wants to go full Khorne, but i'm considering options outside that as well. Im not so enamoured by the khorne Warpstorm abilites that going undivided would be Bad, per se, and honestly im not really enamoured by yet more bloody red on the table.

so, what would you guys recommend as a finisher? ive got about 250 points of wiggle room and im looking for something to add a little verity to a mostly straight melee list.

Well for monster mash howabout LOC? Gives you nice way to delete stuff outside melee. Particularly handy when facing stuff with "no deep strike within 12" which really hinders daemon army.

Skarbrand is the other consideration, if you are happy with how much Belakor and the Bloodthirster cost and fancy spending the same amount again.

He is probably the most interesting pure Khorne unit in the codex from a gameplay perspective with his fall back prevention and warp locus (which Belakor also has).

I dont like skarbrand. He is slow with 8", no FLY, no exalted upgrade. You cant deepstrike him and use his warp locus, because he has to be on the table at the start of your turn. And he buffs enemy units in melee. All of this for 330 is meh.

Slaanesh looking playable these days?

Slaanesh looks to be the worst mono build of the four.

The Keepers are the worst monster option of the four.

Fiends and Daemonettes are good. Chariots are too big based. Seekers aren't as good as Daemonettes. Most of their HQs are overpriced.

EightFoldPath wrote:
Slaanesh looks to be the worst mono build of the four.

The Keepers are the worst monster option of the four.

Fiends and Daemonettes are good. Chariots are too big based. Seekers aren't as good as Daemonettes. Most of their HQs are overpriced.

if i owned them, i'd be really curious as to how the cheapest chariots could play as move blockers, run 1-2 up the board and force your opponent to kill them to get out of their DZ (terrain permitting)

I've played a couple of games of Slaanesh with the new codex now. One mono vs. Votann, one with some Chaos Knights as well, vs. Votann and Blood Angels.

Both times the Votann kicked my arse. The Blood Angels were okay.

Honestly, the Exalted Chariot achieved nothing, my one Keeper drew too much fire, and the rest was hit-or-miss. The Enrapturess was great for locus when Blood Angels deep striked behind me. (I then deep striked some Daemonettes and took care of them.) Otherwise, she just sat on an objective. In game 1, my Seekers took out 3 Votann bikes in turn 1. Game 2, they took out 2 bikes in 3 turns. So... Not reliable.

The Fiends were great when they got into combat, but got wiped by the Votann reserves overwatch strat in game 1. Daemonettes were solid performers, but not great-great. The Masque got owned by the Votann melee tank person. Would've been better against a squad.

Going forward, I think I need a second Keeper, more Fiends, and *possibly* some extra Seekers. Got enough Daemonettes for now.

The Slaanesh strats and warp storm things aren't great. But there was 1 that gave me extra charge distance (if memory serves), and it meant I got like 6 of 7 things into melee in the turn they deep striked. Definitely a good use of points!

There aren't many other options. Possibly a Prince? I want to keep it mono Slaanesh. My friend has Tzeentch and Knights I can borrow for variety. So my money is going into Slaanesh and my other army, Necrons.

I'll have to play more games to figure out better tactics, but I think Slaanesh is pretty easy to figure out. Both good and bad, I guess. Easy to play, easy to counter...

I'm a masochist and want to play nurgle daemons as competitively as possible (I know, I know). Does anyone have any sleeper hits in the nurgle roster? I get the sense that nurgle got the short end of the stick in this codex, being slow, not actually that tough, and not overly powerful in damage dealing. I guess there is some obsec manipulation.

I'm thinking of spamming 9 beasts, 3 soul grinders, 4-5 plaguebearer squads, and a bunch of herald-type characters. I really would like to run a GUO or Rotigus, but I just can't bring myself to.

In fact, is there a decent way to even run a GUO?
When I look at combinations they just don't seem that tough, or powerful , and they're just so slow. Initially I thought corruption (with sword), virulent touch, and revoltingly resilient would be good for a close combat monster, but I have my doubts now, particularly with the punishing damage table. I'd love to be proven wrong though, if anyone's has success with GUOs or Rotigus.

ArikTaranis wrote:

In fact, is there a decent way to even run a GUO?
When I look at combinations they just don't seem that tough, or powerful , and they're just so slow. Initially I thought corruption (with sword), virulent touch, and revoltingly resilient would be good for a close combat monster, but I have my doubts now, particularly with the punishing damage table. I'd love to be proven wrong though, if anyone's has success with GUOs or Rotigus.

What makes you think they're so slow? They start with a 7" move. That's 1" faster than a lot of things - SM, orks, etc. You can also put them in reserve or deep strike out of the warp in order to close the gap quicker.
As for being tough enough? True, their Melee save of 5+ is poor. But they're still T9 & 22wounds....

ccs wrote:

ArikTaranis wrote:

In fact, is there a decent way to even run a GUO?
When I look at combinations they just don't seem that tough, or powerful , and they're just so slow. Initially I thought corruption (with sword), virulent touch, and revoltingly resilient would be good for a close combat monster, but I have my doubts now, particularly with the punishing damage table. I'd love to be proven wrong though, if anyone's has success with GUOs or Rotigus.

What makes you think they're so slow? They start with a 7" move. That's 1" faster than a lot of things - SM, orks, etc. You can also put them in reserve or deep strike out of the warp in order to close the gap quicker.
As for being tough enough? True, their Melee save of 5+ is poor. But they're still T9 & 22wounds....

7" isn't that impressive. +1" faster than infantry while having god damn big base and unable to go through walls. It will take lots of time to go around terrain.

Numbers aren't always so obvious. People went nuts when on AOS side I said mawkrusha isn't as fast/mobile as it might appear. "But but but 36" in a turn!". Well yeah. Split on 3 moves on big honking base, flying only ignoring vertical distance in AOS if you go over(not top) of terrain and 3" no-go meaning that the 6" base actually can't move through enemy unit means mawkrusha can sure sprint fast on open lane...but in practice it's surprisingly hard to move around due to enemy positioning and terrain. 6" wide terrain piece will take 2 turns generally to go over, can't go past enemy without foregoing charges(advance) etc.

7" might look faster than infantry but as it's not infantry it's lot slower on real board

Yeah it's really the base size that it means you have to move through channels between terrain features, albeit dependent on the terrain setup.

Fair point re: deepstriking, although again the 130mm base works against you and the charge is unreliable.

The toughness is match up dependent I suppose. I frequently face Imperial Guard and Votann and find their auto wounding mechanics really punishing.

I guess the trouble is that they seem so poor in comparison to be'lakor, even at 100 odd points cheaper, and even with customisation with relics and WTs.

ArikTaranis wrote:
Yeah it's really the base size that it means you have to move through channels between terrain features, albeit dependent on the terrain setup.

Fair point re: deepstriking, although again the 130mm base works against you and the charge is unreliable.

The toughness is match up dependent I suppose. I frequently face Imperial Guard and Votann and find their auto wounding mechanics really punishing.

I guess the trouble is that they seem so poor in comparison to be'lakor, even at 100 odd points cheaper, and even with customisation with relics and WTs.

Ah, i see. You're not actually looking for advice/ideas on how to play the thing. What you really want is for people to agree with you that they're unplayable. To tell you that it's OK not to use the model.
There's plenty of posters around here who'll oblige you on that.

And you just don't want to admit you might be wrong.

Maybe you play without terrain but others don't and big base no fly monster isn't fast. Skarbrand moves 8"(faster than guo) and has 100mm(smaller than guo) base and still slow and clumsy.

8" monster on 100mm base without fly loses to 6" infantry in getting from a to b faster. And guo loses even worse

Terrain also means not even 9" charge from deep strike is quaranteed vs average+ player

Settle down, CCS.

Both of these things are true. I'd love to hear about it if someone's had success with a Guo in a particular role or configuration. Maybe one for support with the doomsday bell and accompanied by plague drones instead of an assault monster, for instance. I'm all ears for good suggestions, if they exist.

However I fear the Guo (and nurgle in general) has been absolutely shafted this edition. Its not a problem for most daemon players but I've built quite a large nurgle collection and still want to use it as effectively as possible. I also enjoy the challenge of using sub-par factions.

I used to enjoy running one with endless gift and revoltingly resilient prior to the new codex. It was stupidly tough, even if the damage wasn't quite there. But the addtion of toughness, a few wounds and an extra point of save vs shooting doesn't nearly make up for the loss of 4+ FNP. Particularly when GUOs can't use psychic powers to buff themselves anymore.

I guess I'm saying I'm hoping there's a way to make them work, but I'm pretty doubtful. Which is a shame because the model is great. My nurgle daemons are a labour of love but there are limits to how much Im willing to handicap myself in a game.

One nurgle army did 4-1 or was it 5-1. 4 GUO's(one being named) and as many soul grinders as he was able to fit(might have been full 3). Skew army with idea if you can't handle that many T9 16+ wound models you are screwed.

Of course there's some serious hard counters for that...Which is why going for clean sheet is hard. Too many tough match ups.

This may be dense, but what tactics can Slaanesh do other than charging into combat?

There's the Warp Storm thing that lets me fight first, which is great if I have 4 points. Other than that, it's basically just melee, melee, melee... Strats to give bonuses in melee, plus a few things for anti-psykers and anti-Aeldari.

Are there any other tactics for Slaanesh? Am I missing anything?

And with such a melee-based army, is there a good way to hold objectives or achieve secondaries without taking a unit out of combat?

I know someone mentioned using Chariots to sit on objectives, but they're still pretty easy to shift.

I put most units in the warp, which helps, and use the +1" charge strat thing when most of them come in. Where I fall down is in points. I'm usually leading after turn 3, but lose at the end. The 1 game I won on points, it was 40-39 and super tight.

I love the Slaanesh minis, but they seem to be 1-trick ponies.

I mean, everyone but tzneetch is melee focused, so its really a case of using the tools you have to make that melee pressure work. You have a few limited range options like the infernal entraptress with her musical attacks, and the soulstain discipline has a few Witchfore powers.


But yhea, you need to leverage your speed advantages to hem the enemy into his deployment zone for long enough to create a unassailable lead on primaries by the time he's cut himself free.

Speaking of Slannesh, a friend was able to get me a cheap box of Seekers, but not sure what else to get to support them. I have Tzeench and Khorne, but would it be worth delving into Slannesh as well?

Daemonettes are great.

Hecate wrote:
This may be dense, but what tactics can Slaanesh do other than charging into combat?

There's the Warp Storm thing that lets me fight first, which is great if I have 4 points. Other than that, it's basically just melee, melee, melee... Strats to give bonuses in melee, plus a few things for anti-psykers and anti-Aeldari.

Are there any other tactics for Slaanesh? Am I missing anything?

And with such a melee-based army, is there a good way to hold objectives or achieve secondaries without taking a unit out of combat?

I know someone mentioned using Chariots to sit on objectives, but they're still pretty easy to shift.

I put most units in the warp, which helps, and use the +1" charge strat thing when most of them come in. Where I fall down is in points. I'm usually leading after turn 3, but lose at the end. The 1 game I won on points, it was 40-39 and super tight.

I love the Slaanesh minis, but they seem to be 1-trick ponies.

Hey slaanesh got trick more than khorne. Khorne is melee and sporadic shooting. Slaanesh melee, sporadgc shooting and casting.

If you want non-melee daemons tzeentch is only god to use. Others are all various flavour of melee. It's tzeentch, melee or different army.

Mmm. I think the next thing I'll try is having first turn and coming in fast from the warp, try to keep the enemy pinned in their deployment zone as Xerxes suggests.

But then, how do I hold my own objectives without automatically having too few units in the enemy's face and getting totally destroyed / overpowered?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess I'd really only need to keep 2 units back...

If I have 1 unit each on 2 objectives, plus can keep the enemy with just their deployment zone objective, then I can get:

Hold 1 objective
Hold 2 objectives
Hold more objectives than your opponent

That maxes me out. Just need to keep 2 units back, which might be feasible...

ArikTaranis wrote:
Settle down, CCS.

Both of these things are true. I'd love to hear about it if someone's had success with a Guo in a particular role or configuration. Maybe one for support with the doomsday bell and accompanied by plague drones instead of an assault monster, for instance. I'm all ears for good suggestions, if they exist.

However I fear the Guo (and nurgle in general) has been absolutely shafted this edition. Its not a problem for most daemon players but I've built quite a large nurgle collection and still want to use it as effectively as possible. I also enjoy the challenge of using sub-par factions.

I used to enjoy running one with endless gift and revoltingly resilient prior to the new codex. It was stupidly tough, even if the damage wasn't quite there. But the addtion of toughness, a few wounds and an extra point of save vs shooting doesn't nearly make up for the loss of 4+ FNP. Particularly when GUOs can't use psychic powers to buff themselves anymore.

I guess I'm saying I'm hoping there's a way to make them work, but I'm pretty doubtful. Which is a shame because the model is great. My nurgle daemons are a labour of love but there are limits to how much Im willing to handicap myself in a game.

I have played countless games with my Nurgle Daemons and I have yet to feel like a GUO is a welcome addition to the army. They don't hit hard, they aren't all that tough considering all of the auto-wound abilities in the game and they really don't buff much. Existing is their strongest ability in that they can be a distraction or hold a table quarter for some VP.

Even when resurrecting Plague Drones it is so lack luster. Plague Drones are much more resilient but it really isn't that hard to move them in this edition anyway and the ability to get one back a turn isn't exactly game changing. I tried to get a regenerative list working with 2x GUO with Bells, lots of Plague Drones and Plaguebearers, finished with some Beast but I was still tabled by about turn 4 without really killing anything of note.

The best thing you can do with Nurgle really seems to be just taking as many Soulgrinders as you can then taking other gods Daemons cause giving up the Warpstorm specific abilities for Nurgle doesn't really lose you anything.

Thanks for the input re: nurgle. I'm thinking I will run a GUO with corruption and virulent touch, even if it's sub par. At least the sweep attack with 12 attacks at damage 2 will be decent, if not amazing.

Another quick question - would the virulent touch warlord trait affect the nurglihg attacks? Initially I thought no, but reading the malefic rules it doesn't seem to modify the characteristic, so I'm now thinking it does. In which case, 7 additional auto wounding attacks isn't too shabby.