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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Honestly this post reads like you never looked at FW's pricing. It really isn't much more, if at all, compared to GW's modern pricing.

You can't be serious...

GW Contemptor - £35 (widely recognised of as one of the worst value GW kits)
FW Achillus Contemptor - £59.

3x GW Allarus Terminators - £30
3x FW Aquilon Terminators - £51

5x GW Wardens - £35
5x FW typical Terminators - £53

GW Repulsor/Land Raider - £50
FW Caladius (similar size) - £89

A few examples, and that's just the Custodes range. Not to mention the FW stuff will be worst quality and be harder to work with, as well as containing less option/spares.

I mean they charge £17 for 5x heads and 5x guns on the Sagittarum upgrade kit for goodness sake!

You kinda proved my point. Those aren't much more for the value, especially with the Dread comparison.

Except for the Dread comparrison? You mean except for the best unit in our entire faction? And our only non-land raider transports available to us? I can see you doing a counts as for the Ven Contemptor as a Telemon, they are both 60 bases, but the telemon is a lot taller, and will get true line of sighted now more in 9th, so it's modeling for advantage. What is there that GW sells that could "Counts as" one of the flying transports? A Stormraven? I honestly don't know what the closest possible counts as unit is to the FW flyers. Then there are Sag Guard and Aquillon Terms. You again can't compare the two to their GW counterparts. Allarus are hot garbage right now, and the Aquillons are clearly one of our top 3 units in the faction. (pending potential FW points nerf)

But if you think that paying FW prices for the ability to be even slightly competitive, I don't know where you are at, except you are made of money and don't live in real world economic spheres.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You kinda proved my point. Those aren't much more for the value, especially with the Dread comparison.

You seriously think a 70% increase in price for something which is frequently worse quality than its cheaper counterparts, “isn’t much more”?

I don’t even know what say to be honest, you’ve got to be messing with us.

70% !!!

.

In my personal opinion the level of detail and intricacy of our FW dreadnoughts would warrant a higher price than the standard plastic ones IF and only if the quality of the cast resin parts was almost flawless, which many times it isn't.
Broken parts, lots of slippage etc. are just some of the issues and I'm speaking with experience here.
Though the customer service of forgeworld is usually great, and they will usually immediately replace any faulty parts. Though at that price range it should not happen in the first place.

As for rules value, I think it would be a fair argument to say that having half of our model range only available at forgeworld is a problem, especially for new players trying to get into custodes. Though with our new updates I think it is entirely possible to make decent lists with just games workshop plastic custodes models.
I fully understand people being deterred by forgeworld prices, but on the other hand it is a one time investment in a centerpiece model like the telemon, which you'll probably have and keep forever.
I myself am just glad that we even have these forgeworld options, even though they are so expensive. I mean without it we would have the same model variety like harlequins....

I think running 1 single Telemon would be a waste of that model. It would instantly get shot off the table by any opponent with even half a clue. Oh, that giant model that can totally devestate my forces? Priotity Threat engaged.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think running 1 single Telemon would be a waste of that model. It would instantly get shot off the table by any opponent with even half a clue. Oh, that giant model that can totally devestate my forces? Priotity Threat engaged.

Well sure, a telemon will be a high priority target, but with a vexilla nearby and the new half dmg strat it's not that easy to remove.
I play mostly one telemon in my lists and it has been really durable even before our psychic awakening buffs...now I am by no means a competitive tournament player, but your statement of it being shot off the board immediately is a bit hyperbolic.
I also disagree, that running a single one is a waste of that models, but that boils down to personal preference and playstile I guess.

Deep striking a Telemon with a 3D6 pick lowest + rerollable charge straight into a unit and then popping the half damage strat when they fire at you after combat ends seems pretty good.

I reckon the Telemon will never be a waste of points as long as they don't nerf the half damage strat. Even one of them will be able to soak up a crazy amount of firepower.

I'm really looking forward to running 2 of them with the double fist build and teleporting them straight into (probable) assaults turn 2.

I compared a telemon with two fists and one with a storm cannon and a fist. i use 9th ed. rules as far as we know them.
The results are:
5 attacks against T8 3+ --> 13.89 dmg (two fists give you one more attack. )
4 attacks against T8 3+ --> 11.11 dmg

The 8" flamer is very situational so i assume you can fire it once before going into melee. And i will ignore 1 flamer because both have at least one.
So 2.78 or 25% more dmg in melee but no anti tank range attacks.
Shooting the storm cannon in melee makes 3 dmg and 3.75 if not in melee.
Shooting the extra flamer in melee will do 1.48 dmg
If you're not fight knights the Telemon with two fists makes only 4.12 more dmg in one turn when fighiting a tank.
If you teleport the telemon with the two fists in it will probably not be in charge range to a tank because of a screen.
The fist and cannon telemon can start doing dmg in the fist turn.
If we assume the Telemon makes it in to melee with a tank in turn 3 the telemon with the two fists will make 13.89 + 1.48 = 15.37 dmg to the tank.
The telemon with one fist will do 11.25 by shooting in turn 1 2 and 3 and 11.11 in melee in turn 3 so 22.36

All this means one fist is much better. And i don't think you should take double fists excpet for fun.

Wow they’re very damning stats actually, I see what you mean.

Glad I’ve got the weapons magnetised then- it’s a shame though because the 2x fists look so cool in a running pose!

So, not going to lie, but in 9th edition a team of telemon can drop a knight in a single turn if properly buffed, for less than 600 points and a few CP. or one can drop it to it's lowest bracket.

That being said if I were a knight player I would be scared. They no longer get Calculated Targeting unless GW makes them exempt from the overwatch restrictions to modifiers.

Yeah +1 attack for the extra Caestus doesn’t outperform the storm cannon. You can run two fists if you want, looks cool and still does it’s job (prob gonna be Dread Host right?).

Right now I’m thinking a patrol along these lines:

Trajann
SC with axe (all seeing annihilator, unstoppable destroyer, Admonimortis)
6 guard (all shield or mix, not sure yet)
6 guard
Allarus +1 attack Vexilla
7 Allarus

That’s like 1600ish so depending on points increases I can either add the Telemon or add more guard. Option to go with strategic mastermind if i feel I need more CP which seems likely. Right now Allarus are a superb unit, they went from being decent (although arguably competing with Wardens etc.) to a really, really good choice.

Alternatively could take a bike SC with Superior Creation, Indomitable Constitution & Auric gives us T6 9W 2+ 3++ 5+++
Send it after thunderfire cannons and the like.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You kinda proved my point. Those aren't much more for the value, especially with the Dread comparison.

Do you literally only judge money value based on how it performs on the table or something? Do you just lack the ability to do comparisons?

Forgeworld overcharges beyond what gw already overcharges by.

nemesis464 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Honestly this post reads like you never looked at FW's pricing. It really isn't much more, if at all, compared to GW's modern pricing.

You can't be serious...

GW Contemptor - £35 (widely recognised of as one of the worst value GW kits)
FW Achillus Contemptor - £59.

3x GW Allarus Terminators - £30
3x FW Aquilon Terminators - £51

5x GW Wardens - £35
5x FW typical Terminators - £53

GW Repulsor/Land Raider - £50
FW Caladius (similar size) - £89

A few examples, and that's just the Custodes range. Not to mention the FW stuff will be worst quality and be harder to work with, as well as containing less option/spares.

I mean they charge £17 for 5x heads and 5x guns on the Sagittarum upgrade kit for goodness sake!

You're lucky you're not in Norway.

Contemptor = £32.87
Achillus = £81.22 (assuming free shipping)

LOL

Is pricing tactics now?

 ingtaer wrote:

Is pricing tactics now?

The whole thread is pretty much just general Custodes discussion rather than pure tactics, let’s be honest

He's got a point though, irrelevant discussion is why these threads are perceived as such an inaccessible mess. Honestly if most of what gets discussed is peoples outrage over FW pricing, and these threads are going to be banned anyway, I'm about ready to move on from dakka.

Spartacus wrote:
He's got a point though, irrelevant discussion is why these threads are perceived as such an inaccessible mess. Honestly if most of what gets discussed is peoples outrage over FW pricing, and these threads are going to be banned anyway, I'm about ready to move on from dakka.

I see what you mean, but if this thread was exclusively raw tactics, it’d be dead. .

Imo these ‘megathreads’ make the most sense, acting as a sort of community hub for Custodes players. Where are people supposed to post if they want to discuss, for instance, the aesthetics of a particular Custodes model?

If all the non-tactics discussions for each army ends up being posted as individual topics on the main forum, that would be insane clutter.

nemesis464 wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
He's got a point though, irrelevant discussion is why these threads are perceived as such an inaccessible mess. Honestly if most of what gets discussed is peoples outrage over FW pricing, and these threads are going to be banned anyway, I'm about ready to move on from dakka.

I see what you mean, but if this thread was exclusively raw tactics, it’d be dead. .

Imo these ‘megathreads’ make the most sense, acting as a sort of community hub for Custodes players. Where are people supposed to post if they want to discuss, for instance, the aesthetics of a particular Custodes model?

If all the non-tactics discussions for each army ends up being posted as individual topics on the main forum, that would be insane clutter.

General chat? I'm actually in favor of making things more specific. It is sometimes annoying to see discussion and then find out it's just pricing or painting (things that don't really interest me). It's one of the reasons I've been such a big fan of r/warhammercompetitive.

On topic, Goonhammer has their review of Custodes up: https://www.goonhammer.com/war-of-the-spider-review-part-2-adeptus-custodes/

Nothing we really haven’t covered here, they don’t seem as impressed by dread host as we do though.

 greyknight12 wrote:
On topic, Goonhammer has their review of Custodes up: https://www.goonhammer.com/war-of-the-spider-review-part-2-adeptus-custodes/

Nothing we really haven’t covered here, they don’t seem as impressed by dread host as we do though.

Shane seems jazzed, Wings is the skeptic. Seems he's worried 3D6 won't be reliable enough.

Part of me just wants to go full blob: Max squad of bikes, max squad of Allarus, HQ and min troops squad for fun. There is probably something still to be said for MSU (5-man) to keep blast weapons from being as efficient though.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Part of me just wants to go full blob: Max squad of bikes, max squad of Allarus, HQ and min troops squad for fun. There is probably something still to be said for MSU (5-man) to keep blast weapons from being as efficient though.

It depends how point increases shake out, but I was theorizing something like 5 Aquilon, 5 Jetbikes, 1 Saggitarum, Jetbike Captain, Allarus Captain and some extras in a Patrol+Vanguard for 9th. Run the terminators as Dread Host and the Jetbikes as something else. Would keep you under blasts and still present some flexible firepower.

On the other hand, the Forgeworld indexes could change everything. A new Codex would too but we don't know how long that will be.

Spartacus wrote:
He's got a point though, irrelevant discussion is why these threads are perceived as such an inaccessible mess. Honestly if most of what gets discussed is peoples outrage over FW pricing, and these threads are going to be banned anyway, I'm about ready to move on from dakka.

They're not inaccessible.

In any case, the fact that forgeworld is a requirement to get the most out of a custodes force is worthy of comment on.

So with the new terrain rules, is it considered modelling for advantage if my bikes are slightly lower profile? (Angling the spears down, not putting them as high on the up on the base stick). As I understand the new terrain rules, and I am likely wrong, the whole unit doesn't have to be on the terrain, just part of the unit. So If my spear tip is in the terrain, is the unit in terrain and thus -1?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So with the new terrain rules, is it considered modelling for advantage if my bikes are slightly lower profile? (Angling the spears down, not putting them as high on the up on the base stick). As I understand the new terrain rules, and I am likely wrong, the whole unit doesn't have to be on the terrain, just part of the unit. So If my spear tip is in the terrain, is the unit in terrain and thus -1?

Models generally aren't in terrain unless their base is

I thought the new Obscuration rule was if part of the model was "obscured" then the unit counted as being in cover. Granted this was from a spikeybits twitch stream, and I admit i likely misheard it. They said it was basically back to 4th, whatever that meant?

But If we are talking tactics, can Custodes now leap frog from cover to cover, and then charge? I mean this is essentially what we have to do now, but I currently run a mostly biker army, and don't see how the terrain rules could positively affect Custodes?Being the largest models for troops in the game, I can't see the benefit for us.

Audustum wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
On topic, Goonhammer has their review of Custodes up: https://www.goonhammer.com/war-of-the-spider-review-part-2-adeptus-custodes/

Nothing we really haven’t covered here, they don’t seem as impressed by dread host as we do though.

Shane seems jazzed, Wings is the skeptic. Seems he's worried 3D6 won't be reliable enough.

3D6 is PRETTY good though. That's just over 50% which is pretty reliable all things considered.

stratigo wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
He's got a point though, irrelevant discussion is why these threads are perceived as such an inaccessible mess. Honestly if most of what gets discussed is peoples outrage over FW pricing, and these threads are going to be banned anyway, I'm about ready to move on from dakka.

They're not inaccessible.

In any case, the fact that forgeworld is a requirement to get the most out of a custodes force is worthy of comment on.

1. I agree they're not, Ive argued as such with those who wish to ban these threads.

2. That is not what is being argued though, we all know that FW is essential to a good Custodes army right now. Essentially what is being discussed is an interpretation of what the meaning of "too much" is. If FW resin models cost 20% or 70% more than regular GW plastic ones it is quite reasonable to assess this as either 'just fine' or 'too much' depending on your point of view. Its entirely subjective but being stated as fact. Arguing over semantics over the internet isn't productive or relevant to custodes.

I feel like everybody is talking about 9th, but what about tactics in 8th? Usually the codex that came last each edition has been the best. What does the PA-rules say about our Custodes and/or Imperial soup-army? What will help those who are not willing to spend hundreds of €£¥$ in new books - again? (I have not played enough games of 8th compared to the investment of 7 Big armies... and those 14 books à 30-40€ )