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monolith > annihilation barge?

I would like to see 2 annihilation barges do as much as 1 monolith.

Let's compare in a more organized fashion for you non-believers out there

2 Annihilation Barges
Pros:
1. 8 Shots S7 AP "-" (with potential to get extra shots in from gauss cannon/tesla cannon but unlikely as the mid range usually forces you to move and shoot).
- Shots can be placed on 2 different targets
- Can instant kill T3 models
- Good against infantry with low armour saves
- decent light armour hunter against the very common AV 11 transports each hit will have a 50% chance to at least glance and cause some damage. Unfortunately
- potential to do damage to surrounding enemies...low probability.

2. AV 13 is nothing to sneeze at, even missile barrages are hard pressed to punch through.

3. 2 of these cost 20 pts less than 1 Monolith.

Cons
1. AP "-" makes it harder to wreck vehicles and explode impossible (unless open-topped)

2. Annihilation Barges are Open-Topped! Even glancing hits can kill it...A single missile will find it hard to punch through AV13...but they usually come in barrages, 1 single volley of them can drop a barge right away. And we all know how common place S8 is nowadays

3. It just is NOT effective against hordes. Horde units number 20 - 30 models...the barge doesn't pack enough punch and if the horde unit is in any kind of cover the effect is decreased further. Try facing down a Kan Wall Ork army with annihilation barges and see how many orks you can kill or how many killa kans you can pop open.

4. Fails big time against models that save on anything better than a 5+. 8 shots at 1 fire warrior squad out in the open field roughly comes out to 4 dead fire warriors. EPIC FAIL

5. AV 10 on the rear, makes it easily destroyed by outflankers/deep strikers and assault units that will usually hit it on a 4+

1 Monolith
Pros:
1. AV 14 all around Near immune to S8 unless it has melta/lance special rule it will have a very hard time dealing with a monolith. In assaults only the cream of the crop can ever hope to damage it.

2. Only takes up 1 HS slot in the army

3. Synergy with ANYTHING in the army. You'll be hard pressed to find a situation in any list where a monolith would not be handy to have wether.

4. Many special abilities including Eternity Gate & Deep Strike. Give it a world of flexibility and tactical elements in any game used.

5. Flux Arcs + Particle Whip weaponry makes it solid against ALL targets except for 2+ (Eternity Gate can deal with those though)
Particle Whip
- Instant kills T4 models (the vast majority of models you'd want to ID are T4)
- AP 3 decimates anything short of a terminator or units in heavy cover.
- Blast with BS4 has good chance of hitting and taking out large chunks of enemy infantry
- Ordnance makes it great against enemy tanks can be used to effectively destroy transports on a hit.

Flux Arc
- 12 shots S4 AP 5 GAUSS can target both enemy vehicles AND infantry.
- Can be aimed at 4 different targets!!
- Can be fired together with Portal of Exile.

6. Best LOS in the Necron army. Enemies find greater difficulty in finding cover against shots from the monolith.

Cons
1. Fire magnet...draws a lot of attention BECAUSE it's SO good. This can easily be used to your advantage however. And it's so tall that you will hardly ever get a cover save for it unless you are playing in a city scenario or something with large structures.

2. Cannot fire other weapons when using Particle Whip

3. Does not have the option to move more than combat speed.

4. Units disembarking from it count as doing so from a vehicle that moved, thus making it only real useful for shooty units than cc units.

I think you missed a few points:

1. Melta is more prevalent than Str 8 when fighting against MEQ as every single unit will have Melta in it.

2. Annihilation Barges will average slightly higher than 1 pen & 1 glance against AV11 thanks to TLing Tesla.

3. Horde armies will not likely have as much cover as you think, because they are horde armies.

4. The Monolith's doorway to nowhere attack is almost never useful; it's really more of a novelty.

5. The Monolith will basically never have cover against anything, whereas the Annihilation Barge can sometimes get a cover save.

6. However, the Monolith does give cover to your army, whereas the Annihilation Barge usually does not.

7. Dedicated tank hunters will not struggle against AV 14 if they don't against AV 13

8. QS doesn't protect against melee. The Monolith doesn't have this problem.

9. Don't ever deep strike a Monolith now that it has no protection against mishaps.

I'll start with disclaimer. I actually LIKE the Monolith, and have defended it on a few occasions. However, I don't believe it has a place in every list like it was before. Honestly, there are only a few lists that I find they can really benefit.

For starters All Necron Vehicles besides the Monolith are AV 11 Rear.

I agree that Annihilation barges are not tank killers, they are tank suppressors. Sometimes all you need is that Shaken and/or stunned result so that you can move on. This works great with things like Wraiths or Scarabs that can then Munch on it.

The TL nature of all Tesla Destructors can help with getting those extra shots. You are almost guaranteed to at least land all four shots, and possible more. The Chance for Arcing can also lay down the hurt on Hordes. On their own, they may not be horde killers, but when you factor in that you can get them cheap, and most Horde armies have trouble hurting the AV 13, They can lay down the hurt quickly. These definitely work best in conjunction with other Annihilation barges, since this increases the chances of more sixes.

I could feel safe adding 2-3 Annihilation barges in almost every list, since they work very well with the rest of the army.


Now, onto the Monolith. I do feel the Monolith has a place in some lists now, but it is not the Auto-include it used to be. The biggest issue now, was one of it's greatest strengths before is that is such a large target. With it's lack of immunity now, it makes it an enterprising target for Melta/Lance.

Another thing is, because it's so slow, if you can Immobilize it from range, it is as good as destroyed. All of it's weapons are 24' or less, so depending on where it was immobilized it may do nothing for the rest of the game.

Things like Dark Eldar Ravagers can down a Monolith very quickly, with their 48' range thanks to Aeriel assault. The Monoliths short ranged weaponry also means once it starts to get into range, it's going to start eating Melta weapons quite often, and most armies that can, pack a ton of Melta now.

Deep striking it can be a very risky endeavor since it lost it's protection to mishaps, and it's such a huge model.

azazel the cat wrote:I think you missed a few points:

1. Melta is more prevalent than Str 8 when fighting against MEQ as every single unit will have Melta in it.

2. Annihilation Barges will average slightly higher than 1 pen & 1 glance against AV11 thanks to TLing Tesla.

3. Horde armies will not likely have as much cover as you think, because they are horde armies.

4. The Monolith's doorway to nowhere attack is almost never useful; it's really more of a novelty.

5. The Monolith will basically never have cover against anything, whereas the Annihilation Barge can sometimes get a cover save.

6. However, the Monolith does give cover to your army, whereas the Annihilation Barge usually does not.

7. Dedicated tank hunters will not struggle against AV 14 if they don't against AV 13

8. QS doesn't protect against melee. The Monolith doesn't have this problem.

9. Don't ever deep strike a Monolith now that it has no protection against mishaps.

1. Unless you are playing in tournaments ONLY most armies wont be choke full of melta guns. I play MEQ armies (look at my sig) and even I don't own so many meltas. You are also wrong that every unit will have melta in it, you will see a lot more missile launchers or equivalent and they wont be hurting monoliths, but they'll rape ABs. Also from my own MEQ playing experience getting a melta gun in range is NOT so easy you have to be within 6" remember? Otherwise that melta is useless and we have a whole army of stuff to prevent enemies from getting within 6" of the monolith do we not? Or are we just letting them waltz in there?? Even still my argument still holds true that anything that can get a lucky penetrating hit on a monolith will decimate ABs.

2. Please show me the math on this. ABs are not likely to be destroying AV 11 with only S7 and AP -

3. I play the hordies armies there is in 40k (again look at my sig). And yes we get cover saves pretty frequently in many different ways, some cover is always better than no cover. Rules state that the table should have 25% cover on it, and you get to decide where half of it is placed. There's no good reason why you shouldnt have some decent cover in every game unless again it's soem sort of tournament where they decide it for you and even then they always put in some good cover. The AB doesnt have the mobility to pick and choose fire lanes to deny cover without sacrificing a turn of shooting.

4. Tell that to all the terminators and special characters i've killed with it. Are you trying to take out monstrous creatures of something with it? Because it works perfectly fine against S3 and S4 models which the great majority of models in 40k are.

5. Yeah you are correct 100%, but this also means the Monolith has superior LOS as it's tall enough to not be affected by other stuff that would grant cover to models beign hit by an AB's shots.

6. Agreed

7. Completely false, dedicated tank hunters...mmm it takes 27 lascannons at BS 4 to guarantee a kill against AV 14. It only takes 9 to gurantee a kill against AV 13 Open-Topped. That's a huge difference. 1 Monolith can take as much punishment as 3 ABs.

8. Agreed

9. I mostly DS my Monoliths and do great. Unless they stall until turn 5 lol which sucks balls but otherwise the deep strike mechanism NEVER relied on protection against mishaps to be useful. The table is enormous and we have 24" weapons we dont need to be terribly close to stuff that will make us mishap. Assume that you'll roll a 7" scatter and choose a spot 8" away from anything that will make you mishap and you'll be fine. I almost never mishap and i deep strike all the time.

Sasori wrote:I'll start with disclaimer. I actually LIKE the Monolith, and have defended it on a few occasions. However, I don't believe it has a place in every list like it was before. Honestly, there are only a few lists that I find they can really benefit.

For starters All Necron Vehicles besides the Monolith are AV 11 Rear.

I agree that Annihilation barges are not tank killers, they are tank suppressors. Sometimes all you need is that Shaken and/or stunned result so that you can move on. This works great with things like Wraiths or Scarabs that can then Munch on it.

The TL nature of all Tesla Destructors can help with getting those extra shots. You are almost guaranteed to at least land all four shots, and possible more. The Chance for Arcing can also lay down the hurt on Hordes. On their own, they may not be horde killers, but when you factor in that you can get them cheap, and most Horde armies have trouble hurting the AV 13, They can lay down the hurt quickly. These definitely work best in conjunction with other Annihilation barges, since this increases the chances of more sixes.

I could feel safe adding 2-3 Annihilation barges in almost every list, since they work very well with the rest of the army.


Now, onto the Monolith. I do feel the Monolith has a place in some lists now, but it is not the Auto-include it used to be. The biggest issue now, was one of it's greatest strengths before is that is such a large target. With it's lack of immunity now, it makes it an enterprising target for Melta/Lance.

Another thing is, because it's so slow, if you can Immobilize it from range, it is as good as destroyed. All of it's weapons are 24' or less, so depending on where it was immobilized it may do nothing for the rest of the game.

Things like Dark Eldar Ravagers can down a Monolith very quickly, with their 48' range thanks to Aeriel assault. The Monoliths short ranged weaponry also means once it starts to get into range, it's going to start eating Melta weapons quite often, and most armies that can, pack a ton of Melta now.

Deep striking it can be a very risky endeavor since it lost it's protection to mishaps, and it's such a huge model.

1. Oops you are 100% correct I forgot its rear AV 11, goes to show how long those things usually live that I didnt even remember that.

2. While a AB can suppress a tank, the monolith can outright destroy it and is effective against higher AV vehicles not just AV 11 and lower. Aginst AV 12 the ABs are practically useless...I know because i've tried time and again at shooting down Tau devilfishes to no avail. The monolith can at the same exact range lay the smackdown on any AV12 or AV13 even.

3. Immortals with tesla carbine > annihilation barge vs infantry. The AB is 'decent" versus tanks and "decent" versus infantry, it's far from the optimal unit that the internet is making it out to be. Immortals would at least be scoring get cover saves easy and do very close to the same amount of damage making them point for point better.

4. Yeah i agree the loss of the old living metal will be missed, but this does not mean that the monolith did not again anything out of it. It can easily ignore shaken/stunned, the eternity gate was vastly improved and like i said before AV 14 is still king even with all the melta flying around people still use LR in tournaments because they WORK! They move in and unload those cc units the monolith at least has way more utility and not every army out there has lance weaponry nor melta weaponry.

Plus any of these weapons aimed at ABs will destroy them practically guranteed and they can tagert ABs just as easily as a monolith because ABs only ever move 24" in order to be able to fire to move cruising speed is to not shoot for a turn and if you are doing that then why did you bring the AB in the first place?? Melta still has to get within 6" or 12" IF MULTIMELTA and lance weapons are usually S8 vs AV12 which still gives the monolith a good amount of survivability.

5. Yes immobilize the monolith and it's just going to sit there immune to anything short of S9 and still firing all its weapons and teleporting units through tis portal to support positions or escape danger.

Roll a 4 (immobilised ) result against an AB and oh wait...it's wrecked because its open-topped. But lets assume that you rolled a 3 on a pen hit...now you are immobilized subject to all the same negative effects that an immobilized monolith has, mid ranged weaponry etc etc...but now you are AV 11 as well and vulnerable even to S6 fire.

No matter how you look at it the Monolith IS in fact the clear superior option thus why its cost more than 2 ABs, because its worth IS infact better than 2 ABs.

The monolith is an auto-include becasue it will ALWAYS find use. You will ALWAYS have something you can port through it in your list it's impossible not to. That alone is great utility.
It will soak up a lot of shots that wont be killing your other stuff.
It is good against every single target in game. Well maybe not 'good' but at least threatens them in some way weather by particle whip, flux arcs or portal of exile.

6. Deep Striking is a bonus option, if you ever watch the tv show DEADLIEST WARRIOR you would also agree that whoever has more tactical options has the edge, wether or not its used. More options is always better.

1. Oops you are 100% correct I forgot its rear AV 11, goes to show how long those things usually live that I didnt even remember that.

It happens.

2. While a AB can suppress a tank, the monolith can outright destroy it and is effective against higher AV vehicles not just AV 11 and lower. Aginst AV 12 the ABs are practically useless...I know because i've tried time and again at shooting down Tau devilfishes to no avail. The monolith can at the same exact range lay the smackdown on any AV12 or AV13 even.

The Annihilation barges are much faster, and you get two for less than the price of the Monolith. 8 TL Destructor shots has a better chance of killing 10-12 AV than the Single particle whip does. The Monolith can damage AV13, but the Likelihood is very slim.

3. Immortals with tesla carbine > annihilation barge vs infantry. The AB is 'decent" versus tanks and "decent" versus infantry, it's far from the optimal unit that the internet is making it out to be. Immortals would at least be scoring get cover saves easy and do very close to the same amount of damage making them point for point better.

A 5 man squad of Immortals is only 5 points less than an Annihilation barge, and do not put out close the amount of firepower a Barge can for the points.

4. Yeah i agree the loss of the old living metal will be missed, but this does not mean that the monolith did not again anything out of it. It can easily ignore shaken/stunned, the eternity gate was vastly improved and like i said before AV 14 is still king even with all the melta flying around people still use LR in tournaments because they WORK! They move in and unload those cc units the monolith at least has way more utility and not every army out there has lance weaponry nor melta weaponry.

The only time I've been seeing Land Raiders are in Vanilla Marine lists. I never see them in SW/BA/GK which are far more common now than vanilla marines. Every Army has some form of Lance or Melta. Maybe not a lot, but they do all have them.

Plus any of these weapons aimed at ABs will destroy them practically guranteed and they can tagert ABs just as easily as a monolith because ABs only ever move 24" in order to be able to fire to move cruising speed is to not shoot for a turn and if you are doing that then why did you bring the AB in the first place?? Melta still has to get within 6" or 12" IF MULTIMELTA and lance weapons are usually S8 vs AV12 which still gives the monolith a good amount of survivability.

I had a little trouble reading through this part. It's a fair amount of survivability.

5. Yes immobilize the monolith and it's just going to sit there immune to anything short of S9 and still firing all its weapons and teleporting units through tis portal to support positions or escape danger.

It depends on where it's immobilized. If it's Immobilized in your Deployment zone, away from an objective, it's not going to do anything.

Roll a 4 (immobilised ) result against an AB and oh wait...it's wrecked because its open-topped. But lets assume that you rolled a 3 on a pen hit...now you are immobilized subject to all the same negative effects that an immobilized monolith has, mid ranged weaponry etc etc...but now you are AV 11 as well and vulnerable even to S6 fire.

You also have 2 of these, it hurts a lot more when that Monolith is wrecked or Immobilized, than the single Annihilation barge.

No matter how you look at it the Monolith IS in fact the clear superior option thus why its cost more than 2 ABs, because its worth IS infact better than 2 ABs.

I disagree completely. I agree that the Monolith has tactical flexibility, I strongly disagree that no matter how you look at it, it's better.

The monolith is an auto-include becasue it will ALWAYS find use. You will ALWAYS have something you can port through it in your list it's impossible not to. That alone is great utility.
It will soak up a lot of shots that wont be killing your other stuff.
It is good against every single target in game. Well maybe not 'good' but at least threatens them in some way weather by particle whip, flux arcs or portal of exile.

It does have tactical flexibility, but has a plethora of downsides to go with it. It is not always an auto-include.

6. Deep Striking is a bonus option, if you ever watch the tv show DEADLIEST WARRIOR you would also agree that whoever has more tactical options has the edge, wether or not its used. More options is always better.

This is not always the case.

I have been thinking about running a Monolith with two Annihilation Barges... or Doomscythes. That way the Mono can screen the squishier vehicles from Missile Spam.

My biggest problem with the Monolith is not its 200 point price tag or it's perceived lack of survivability Rather, it is the fact that its main weapon is one shot per turn... and is ordanance, so you cannot fire the flux arcs. That is a big problem, as you are relying on either catching infantry bunched up out in the open, or you are hoping that you don't scatter off a vehicle, pen it, it fails any cover, and then you roll decent on the damage result. That's just too many ifs. Against anything AV12 or less, I think your Annihilation Barges are going to do significantly better at stripping weapons/immobilizing them, simply because of the larger number of shots. Ask normal Riflemen how four TL S7 shots do against Rhinos and Chimeras. Even with the AP - of the AB, more shots have a higher chance of causing damage.

At the end of the day, two ABs can disable/destroy two transports a turn while a Monolith is hoping just to kill one.

@Sasori: What kind of Necron list would a Monolith fit well into?

1. The AB is not 'much faster' it can move cruising speed that's the only difference. And if it does that it cannot shoot

if you move cruising and dont shoot for a turn to reposition you are actually inflicting less damage than if you had just moved combat speed and shot tesla destructor 2x.

Do the math.

2. Again where is your math to prove this? Please show me how ABs have a better chance at destroying AV12. S7 against AV12 fails specially with AP -. Where as one hit from the monolith is a guaranteed pen pretty much.

3. I didnt say immortals outshoot the barge I said they do damage comparable to a barge while being scoring units with cover saves thus way more survivable. They simply do the anti infantry duty much better

4. That still means that raiders are still in use, many people still play vanilla marines and BT also make use of LRs as do Dark Angels. AV14 is not as uncommon as you would make it sound to be.

5. Are you saying that an AB immobilized in the deployment zone is ANY better than a Monolith immobilized on the same spot?? That makes no damn sense. The monolith is still superior and if you are immobilized at ur deployment zone and are playing something like capture and control or seize ground you can advance with your scoring units and then port them back to home base to recapture your objective at last minute. So that's still useful even at the deployment zone.

6. 2 ABs will never be as survivable as 1 monolith no matter how you try to dice it. You should concede this argument on survivability you and I both know the monolith is as resilient as at least 3 ABs. Proven by the lascannon theory

7. It is when it comes to the monolith which is what we are discussing.

Gornall wrote:I have been thinking about running a Monolith with two Annihilation Barges... or Doomscythes. That way the Mono can screen the squishier vehicles from Missile Spam.

My biggest problem with the Monolith is not its 200 point price tag or it's perceived lack of survivability Rather, it is the fact that its main weapon is one shot per turn... and is ordanance, so you cannot fire the flux arcs. That is a big problem, as you are relying on either catching infantry bunched up out in the open, or you are hoping that you don't scatter off a vehicle, pen it, it fails any cover, and then you roll decent on the damage result. That's just too many ifs. Against anything AV12 or less, I think your Annihilation Barges are going to do significantly better at stripping weapons/immobilizing them, simply because of the larger number of shots. Ask normal Riflemen how four TL S7 shots do against Rhinos and Chimeras. Even with the AP - of the AB, more shots have a higher chance of causing damage.

At the end of the day, two ABs can disable/destroy two transports a turn while a Monolith is hoping just to kill one.

@Sasori: What kind of Necron list would a Monolith fit well into?

- Particle Whip > Tesla Destructor versus any vehicle. Do the math hammer. At the end of hte day the tesla destructor needs a 6 to wreck even on a pen hit, if you ONLY glance lord save you with that -3 you will be lookin at shaken results all day.

Instead of people basing things on perception just run the numbers. I ran the numbers in my head and the monolith always comes out on top effectively damaging vehicles more often all the way up to AV 13 rather than just shaking/stunning them. Also flux arc can be aimed at up to 4 targets and you'll often be able to shoot at 2 diff targets and its has the gauss special rule so you can effectively get the same effect as 2 barges on 2 targets. So this argument is not unique to the barge alone. Best part is that the flux arc CAN also work just as effectively against AV 14 in terms of glancing it.

Dude you can in NO WAY compare tesla destructor to psyriflemen...24" range S7 4 shots AP - does not in ANY WaY to 48" range S7 4 shots AP4 RENDING I play MEQ (see my sig) and the comparison is like comparing an ant to an elephant.

Gornall wrote:I have been thinking about running a Monolith with two Annihilation Barges... or Doomscythes. That way the Mono can screen the squishier vehicles from Missile Spam.

My biggest problem with the Monolith is not its 200 point price tag or it's perceived lack of survivability Rather, it is the fact that its main weapon is one shot per turn... and is ordanance, so you cannot fire the flux arcs. That is a big problem, as you are relying on either catching infantry bunched up out in the open, or you are hoping that you don't scatter off a vehicle, pen it, it fails any cover, and then you roll decent on the damage result. That's just too many ifs. Against anything AV12 or less, I think your Annihilation Barges are going to do significantly better at stripping weapons/immobilizing them, simply because of the larger number of shots. Ask normal Riflemen how four TL S7 shots do against Rhinos and Chimeras. Even with the AP - of the AB, more shots have a higher chance of causing damage.

At the end of the day, two ABs can disable/destroy two transports a turn while a Monolith is hoping just to kill one.

@Sasori: What kind of Necron list would a Monolith fit well into?

I personally think they fit well in a Dual Solar pulse, Mostly footslogging list. I believe this is when you can use the Monolith to it's maximum potential, as the portal becomes A LOT more useful, than when say you are meched up. Without relaying on the Transports, it leaves you a lot more points to get more things on foot, Like Wraiths and Royal Court members. The Monolith has tended to do very well, or almost nothing in the few lists I've played with it. Armies like Dark Eldar just laugh at it, while armies that relay on only strength 8 to pop tanks, can do nothing.

8 S7 AP- Twin-linked shots against AV 12, at BS 4;

5 hits, 3 misses re-rolled; 2 more hits, total of 7.

1.17 glances, 1.17 pens; 1/6 chance to destroy, but you're guaranteed to at least shake, and will likely immobilize or remove a weapon.

1 S8 AP 3 Large Blast against AV 12, at BS 4;

Average scatter is 3"; you therefore have about a 50% chance to end up with the center hole of the template over the vehicle, depending on what vehicle it is. We'll assume 50%, at any rate.

0.5 hits gives us 0.0833 glances and 0.167 pens.

The Monolith's Particle Whip is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than two Annihilation Barges at damaging AV 12 vehicles. In fact, it's even worse than a single Annihilation Barge. Neither is very good at it, but the Monolith is much, much worse.

Akaiyou wrote:2. Again where is your math to prove this? Please show me how ABs have a better chance at destroying AV12. S7 against AV12 fails specially with AP -. Where as one hit from the monolith is a guaranteed pen pretty much.

2x ABs worth of Tesla Destructors (due to the Tesla rule, I had to manually enter in the average number of hits which is why it show 100% hit rate)

Shooting Vs Vehicles

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Shots: 9
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 9
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Penetration Chance: 16.67%
Glancing Hits: 1.5
Penetration Hits: 1.5
Shaken: 1.5
Stunned: 0.5
Weapon Destroyed: 0.5
Immobilized: 0.25
Wrecked: 0.25
Options: Auto Hit

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 9
Glancing Hits: 1.5
Penetration Hits: 1.5
Results
Shaken: 1.5
Stunned: 0.5
Weapon Destroyed: 0.5
Immobilized: 0.25
Wrecked: 0.25


-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

1x Particle Whip

Shooting Vs Vehicles

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Shots: 1
Direct Hit Chance: 44.44%
1" Scatter: 7.41%
2" Scatter: 9.26%
3" Scatter: 11.11%
4-6" Scatter: 22.22%
7"+ Scatter: 5.56%
Hits: 1
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Penetration Chance: 33.33%
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.333
Shaken: 0.139
Stunned: 0.083
Weapon Destroyed: 0.083
Immobilized: 0.083
Wrecked: 0.056
Explodes: 0.056
Options: Blast, Auto Hit

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 1
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.333
Results
Shaken: 0.139
Stunned: 0.083
Weapon Destroyed: 0.083
Immobilized: 0.083
Wrecked: 0.056
Explodes: 0.056


-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

Akaiyou wrote:

Gornall wrote:I have been thinking about running a Monolith with two Annihilation Barges... or Doomscythes. That way the Mono can screen the squishier vehicles from Missile Spam.

My biggest problem with the Monolith is not its 200 point price tag or it's perceived lack of survivability Rather, it is the fact that its main weapon is one shot per turn... and is ordanance, so you cannot fire the flux arcs. That is a big problem, as you are relying on either catching infantry bunched up out in the open, or you are hoping that you don't scatter off a vehicle, pen it, it fails any cover, and then you roll decent on the damage result. That's just too many ifs. Against anything AV12 or less, I think your Annihilation Barges are going to do significantly better at stripping weapons/immobilizing them, simply because of the larger number of shots. Ask normal Riflemen how four TL S7 shots do against Rhinos and Chimeras. Even with the AP - of the AB, more shots have a higher chance of causing damage.

At the end of the day, two ABs can disable/destroy two transports a turn while a Monolith is hoping just to kill one.

@Sasori: What kind of Necron list would a Monolith fit well into?

- Particle Whip > Tesla Destructor versus any vehicle. Do the math hammer. At the end of hte day the tesla destructor needs a 6 to wreck even on a pen hit, if you ONLY glance lord save you with that -3 you will be lookin at shaken results all day.

Instead of people basing things on perception just run the numbers. I ran the numbers in my head and the monolith always comes out on top effectively damaging vehicles more often all the way up to AV 13 rather than just shaking/stunning them. Also flux arc can be aimed at up to 4 targets and you'll often be able to shoot at 2 diff targets and its has the gauss special rule so you can effectively get the same effect as 2 barges on 2 targets. So this argument is not unique to the barge alone. Best part is that the flux arc CAN also work just as effectively against AV 14 in terms of glancing it.

Dude you can in NO WAY compare tesla destructor to psyriflemen...24" range S7 4 shots AP - does not in ANY WaY to 48" range S7 4 shots AP4 RENDING I play MEQ (see my sig) and the comparison is like comparing an ant to an elephant.

Can you post the mathhammer in the thread? Yes, the Monolith has twice as good of a chance to kill a tank IF it hits and if it pens... but two Barges generate approximately 3.6 PENS and 1.8 glances against AV11 and 1.8 PENS and 1.8 glances against AV12--Not even counting the Tesla Cannon. In the case of AV11 you have almost 4 times as many chances (not even factoring in scatter) to kill a tank and AV12 has almost twice as many. When you factor in the glances, I think that it shows the Barges are better at killing vehicles, even with the AP-.

If you are firing the flux arcs, you are NOT firing the Particle whip (because of ordanance)... which makes them really only useful after the Particle Whip has been destroyed. Yes, they can target four targets... if they can fire... and have units in LOS.

And I was referring to the standard Rifleman from Vanilla SM. I also play SM, BA, and GK and find that 4 TL S7 shots (no rending) does a great job of suppressing/damaging vehicles. Even with the AP- the ABs have, the sheer number of shots can still get the job done.

EDIT: NINJAED X2

Really about the only shooting the Particle Whip outshines a pair of tesla destructors on is in shooting T4 or less multiwound models and MEQ out of cover (and against MEQ that assumes an average of 7 models hit, which is VERY generous). Everything else is hands down in favor of the ABs.

I like how the person telling others to do the math had not actually done so.

The utility and resilience of the monolith are what make it cost more, not its firepower. The ABs have more raw firepower as has been demonstrated.

Dracos wrote:I like how the person telling others to do the math had not actually done so.

The utility and resilience of the monolith are what make it cost more, not its firepower. The ABs have more raw firepower as has been demonstrated.

In the Flayed Ones thread he made, he told people he doesn't want to talk about theory hammer either

I'd take an Annihilation barge to hunt av 12 armor over a monolith any day. It's more accurate. I'd rather take a chance to pen, heck, even to glance, over missing entirely with my 1 shot from the monolith.

Monolith is an OKAY unit, but as Sasori truthfully said, it's no longer a "must have" in every list. I have 3x annihilation barges and LOVE them. I don't rely on pretty much anything in our "heavy" slot to be tank hunters. I rely more on the wraiths + destroyer lord w/ warscythe, or my scarabs, or my heavy destroyers, or my triarch stalker, or my harbingers of destruction, etc.....

Sasori wrote:

6. Deep Striking is a bonus option, if you ever watch the tv show DEADLIEST WARRIOR you would also agree that whoever has more tactical options has the edge, wether or not its used. More options is always better.

This is not always the case.

Oh god that's hilarious. A friend of mine is an engineer in the army, was doing some exercises with the Yanks and aussie's. His lot were the enemy force, and had pretty much their guns, kit, and a roll of barbed wire and artillery support to try and slow down the invaders as much as possible. The invaders a tank division backed by some infantry platoons. So what they did was cut the barbed wire into little coils, and dug them all over the roads of the town, and legged it into the hills nearby. The invaders approach the town, and the whole convey stops when they come across these little metal pins sticking out of the ground, and mine sweepers are called forth...meanwhile, the engineers are sitting in the hills laughing at what they see down the binoculars and dialing in the coordinates for the boys on the artillery.

The defenders had smalls arms and basic kits, artillery support and barbed wire.
The invaders had tanks, way more numbers of infantry who were also mechanized and better equipped, air support, gunship support, detailed information of the town and the surrounding area. And they got their ass handed to them by little strips of barbed wire. Every time they come across them the whole convey stops and checks for mines, and a nice shower of artillery shells. Technological and numerical superiority, with far more tactical options, totally nullified by strips of barbed ing wire.

Besides that, have you SEEN the footprint of a monolith? Good luck deepstriking into anywhere but the most obvious of places.

Akaiyou wrote:Unless you are playing in tournaments ONLY most armies wont be choke full of melta guns. I play MEQ armies (look at my sig) and even I don't own so many meltas. You are also wrong that every unit will have melta in it, you will see a lot more missile launchers or equivalent and they wont be hurting monoliths, but they'll rape ABs. Also from my own MEQ playing experience getting a melta gun in range is NOT so easy you have to be within 6" remember? Otherwise that melta is useless and we have a whole army of stuff to prevent enemies from getting within 6" of the monolith do we not? Or are we just letting them waltz in there?? Even still my argument still holds true that anything that can get a lucky penetrating hit on a monolith will decimate ABs.

Yes. People let their opponents "waltz in there" with meltaguns. It's not that their opponents have a falcon/serpent full of dragons. Or a speeder. Or a drop pod. Or even the humble rhino- I'm shocked by people who themselves are shocked at turn 2 range (12" deployment+12"move+12"move+3"disembark+6"melta/12"non =45"melta range/51"non melta range. Therefore, If your monolith is 45" away from my board edge on turn 2, I can melta it. With my basic transport and troop unit, not whipping out bikes or speeders or pods or any other such shenanigans. I don't play tournaments, but I know most of my armies are filled to the brim with meltaguns. Why wouldn't you? It's an anti-everything gun, well anti-everything-but-hordes. Oh wait, I can take double flamers instead of double meltas. Problem solved, at a simple 2:1 ratio

Akaiyou wrote:

Dude you can in NO WAY compare tesla destructor to psyriflemen...24" range S7 4 shots AP - does not in ANY WaY to 48" range S7 4 shots AP4 RENDING I play MEQ (see my sig) and the comparison is like comparing an ant to an elephant.

...I believe a few posts above me, someone did !
Psyrifleman is S8, not rending autocannons. I play MEQ too, CSM SW and vanilla when I feel silly from time to time. Because I do play MEQ armies, I understand quite well that no one in their right mind would let me walk up to a monolith or a land raider or whatever AV13-14 high priority target and slag it. I'd say they'd do almost everything in their power to stop me from doing it! Which is why I understand that using transports, speed and a scoop of raw cunning, I can slag any vehicle with a meltagun. Which is why I field alot of them! Being a MEQ player, and a CSM player, I understand quite well the value of lots of S7 shooting- AC havocs and rifleman cause my eldar and ork mates to howl in fury as their special fast transports get dakka'd down! It also has given me little insights like why I should shoot my havocs at that rhino/serpent instead of my defilers battlecannon. What does this have to do with AB's and monliths? S8 Ap3 large blast, compared to...S8 Ap3 large blast with 48" more of range! S7 AP4 vs...S7 AP-! oh no, -1 on the chart! Its a good thing I',m going for multiple results! At the worst, that vehicle won't shoot me next turn! I've learned that shaken result can be all you need at times.

You started the thread with a question. Monolith> annihilation barge? It has become quite clear that you're a fanboy of monoliths, and pretty much don't want to listen to anyone who disagree's with you. It's kind of childish, really =\

Jihallah wrote:

You started the thread with a question. Monolith> annihilation barge? It has become quite clear that you're a fanboy of monoliths, and pretty much don't want to listen to anyone who disagree's with you. It's kind of childish, really =\

I don't mean to sound like a jerk to the OP, but I agree with you 100%. OP sounds like he got an ebay auction army or a hand me down, or played a lot in 3rd edition and is grasping onto his old units trying to convince himself why he shouldn't have to buy the newer ones.

I feel the same way, as I said in the flayed ones army , i have 20x the old flayed ones. They were fun to use, but never competitive, but the newer ones are pretty much tripe. I've accepted I need to buy new models, and I don't have a beef with that, i actually love the newer models... also I had about 5.5k necrons before the latest codex, so yeah it sorta stung to see what has happened to the monolith, i have 2 of them, but that being said I won't clutch on to them and scream "NO! MY MONOLITH IS SUPER POWERED!"

I've seen scout squads come onto the board and snipe my monolith, or a storm raven, or drop pods. It's a 2 player game, and you cannot control everything your opponent does to your units.

Cryage wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

You started the thread with a question. Monolith> annihilation barge? It has become quite clear that you're a fanboy of monoliths, and pretty much don't want to listen to anyone who disagree's with you. It's kind of childish, really =\

I don't mean to sound like a jerk to the OP, but I agree with you 100%. OP sounds like he got an ebay auction army or a hand me down, or played a lot in 3rd edition and is grasping onto his old units trying to convince himself why he shouldn't have to buy the newer ones.

I do. I'm with Dracos here- I like (read- find it highly amusing) that the person telling others to do the math had not actually done so. I might be , but at least I'm not a fething

BeRzErKeR wrote:8 S7 AP- Twin-linked shots against AV 12, at BS 4;

5 hits, 3 misses re-rolled; 2 more hits, total of 7.

1.17 glances, 1.17 pens; 1/6 chance to destroy, but you're guaranteed to at least shake, and will likely immobilize or remove a weapon.

1 S8 AP 3 Large Blast against AV 12, at BS 4;

Average scatter is 3"; you therefore have about a 50% chance to end up with the center hole of the template over the vehicle, depending on what vehicle it is. We'll assume 50%, at any rate.

0.5 hits gives us 0.0833 glances and 0.167 pens.

The Monolith's Particle Whip is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than two Annihilation Barges at damaging AV 12 vehicles. In fact, it's even worse than a single Annihilation Barge. Neither is very good at it, but the Monolith is much, much worse.

Versus AV 12 comparison

5.33 hits
1.33 hits on re-roll

6.66 total hits

Since you rolled 11 times lets assume you landed 2 6s to hit.

4 additional hits

10.66 hits

Vs AV 12
3.553333333 will be glancing or better
1.776666667 will be a penetrating

All you glancing shots will be at -3
All your penetratin shots will be at -1

And no you are not 'likely to immobilize' You have the same exact odds that you do on regular damage table of landing an immobilized result .16% chance

You are simply far more likely to only get shaken with .32% chance of shaken on a pen.

50% chance of shaken on a glance.

Monolith has 55% to hit (i believe that's the correct math on it if i remember correctly on large blasts)

0.55% hit with an ORDENANCE weapon
2D6 pick highest S8 vs AV 12 = 75% chance to glance 50% chance to pen

THIS is the correct math for it

And now when you roll on the damage table you do not suffer from any added penalties. Meaning you have 33% chance to destroy on a pen

The Monolith wins.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:2. Again where is your math to prove this? Please show me how ABs have a better chance at destroying AV12. S7 against AV12 fails specially with AP -. Where as one hit from the monolith is a guaranteed pen pretty much.

2x ABs worth of Tesla Destructors (due to the Tesla rule, I had to manually enter in the average number of hits which is why it show 100% hit rate)

Shooting Vs Vehicles

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Shots: 9
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 9
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Penetration Chance: 16.67%
Glancing Hits: 1.5
Penetration Hits: 1.5
Shaken: 1.5
Stunned: 0.5
Weapon Destroyed: 0.5
Immobilized: 0.25
Wrecked: 0.25
Options: Auto Hit

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 9
Glancing Hits: 1.5
Penetration Hits: 1.5
Results
Shaken: 1.5
Stunned: 0.5
Weapon Destroyed: 0.5
Immobilized: 0.25
Wrecked: 0.25


-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

1x Particle Whip

Shooting Vs Vehicles

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Shots: 1
Direct Hit Chance: 44.44%
1" Scatter: 7.41%
2" Scatter: 9.26%
3" Scatter: 11.11%
4-6" Scatter: 22.22%
7"+ Scatter: 5.56%
Hits: 1
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Penetration Chance: 33.33%
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.333
Shaken: 0.139
Stunned: 0.083
Weapon Destroyed: 0.083
Immobilized: 0.083
Wrecked: 0.056
Explodes: 0.056
Options: Blast, Auto Hit

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 1
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.333
Results
Shaken: 0.139
Stunned: 0.083
Weapon Destroyed: 0.083
Immobilized: 0.083
Wrecked: 0.056
Explodes: 0.056


-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

What on earth is all that?? I did not understand it at all where are you getting 9 shots from anyway???? Please post clear math hammer next time.

Gornall wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:

Gornall wrote:I have been thinking about running a Monolith with two Annihilation Barges... or Doomscythes. That way the Mono can screen the squishier vehicles from Missile Spam.

My biggest problem with the Monolith is not its 200 point price tag or it's perceived lack of survivability Rather, it is the fact that its main weapon is one shot per turn... and is ordanance, so you cannot fire the flux arcs. That is a big problem, as you are relying on either catching infantry bunched up out in the open, or you are hoping that you don't scatter off a vehicle, pen it, it fails any cover, and then you roll decent on the damage result. That's just too many ifs. Against anything AV12 or less, I think your Annihilation Barges are going to do significantly better at stripping weapons/immobilizing them, simply because of the larger number of shots. Ask normal Riflemen how four TL S7 shots do against Rhinos and Chimeras. Even with the AP - of the AB, more shots have a higher chance of causing damage.

At the end of the day, two ABs can disable/destroy two transports a turn while a Monolith is hoping just to kill one.

@Sasori: What kind of Necron list would a Monolith fit well into?

- Particle Whip > Tesla Destructor versus any vehicle. Do the math hammer. At the end of hte day the tesla destructor needs a 6 to wreck even on a pen hit, if you ONLY glance lord save you with that -3 you will be lookin at shaken results all day.

Instead of people basing things on perception just run the numbers. I ran the numbers in my head and the monolith always comes out on top effectively damaging vehicles more often all the way up to AV 13 rather than just shaking/stunning them. Also flux arc can be aimed at up to 4 targets and you'll often be able to shoot at 2 diff targets and its has the gauss special rule so you can effectively get the same effect as 2 barges on 2 targets. So this argument is not unique to the barge alone. Best part is that the flux arc CAN also work just as effectively against AV 14 in terms of glancing it.

Dude you can in NO WAY compare tesla destructor to psyriflemen...24" range S7 4 shots AP - does not in ANY WaY to 48" range S7 4 shots AP4 RENDING I play MEQ (see my sig) and the comparison is like comparing an ant to an elephant.

Can you post the mathhammer in the thread? Yes, the Monolith has twice as good of a chance to kill a tank IF it hits and if it pens... but two Barges generate approximately 3.6 PENS and 1.8 glances against AV11 and 1.8 PENS and 1.8 glances against AV12--Not even counting the Tesla Cannon. In the case of AV11 you have almost 4 times as many chances (not even factoring in scatter) to kill a tank and AV12 has almost twice as many. When you factor in the glances, I think that it shows the Barges are better at killing vehicles, even with the AP-.

If you are firing the flux arcs, you are NOT firing the Particle whip (because of ordanance)... which makes them really only useful after the Particle Whip has been destroyed. Yes, they can target four targets... if they can fire... and have units in LOS.

And I was referring to the standard Rifleman from Vanilla SM. I also play SM, BA, and GK and find that 4 TL S7 shots (no rending) does a great job of suppressing/damaging vehicles. Even with the AP- the ABs have, the sheer number of shots can still get the job done.

EDIT: NINJAED X2

Was thinking of my psycannons for some reason either way psyriflemen are much better AT than ABs run the math there's no comparison for TL autocannons vs tesla destructor.

Also read above my math hammer on Monolith and ABs vs AV12

It seems you are all forgetting what ordenance does monolith has a great chance to pen AV 12 or anything short of AV14 for that matter.

More pens with a AP - attached to it doesnt reliably get rid of vehicles it simply reliably shakes them. A transport wont care how many shaken results you get on it. A dead transport will

Akaiyou wrote:

Monolith has 55% to hit (i believe that's the correct math on it if i remember correctly on large blasts)

Damn son, are you on crack son? That's just bad son. 55% chance to scatter on what? The area you need to scatter on is different for each vehicle. You are MUCH more likely to scatter off a viper than a land raider, or another monolith for that matter! Don't pull out your ass like that. At least if you do give me some of what your smoking first!

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:2. Again where is your math to prove this? Please show me how ABs have a better chance at destroying AV12. S7 against AV12 fails specially with AP -. Where as one hit from the monolith is a guaranteed pen pretty much.

2x ABs worth of Tesla Destructors (due to the Tesla rule, I had to manually enter in the average number of hits which is why it show 100% hit rate)

Shooting Vs Vehicles

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Shots: 9
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 9
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Penetration Chance: 16.67%
Glancing Hits: 1.5
Penetration Hits: 1.5
Shaken: 1.5
Stunned: 0.5
Weapon Destroyed: 0.5
Immobilized: 0.25
Wrecked: 0.25
Options: Auto Hit

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 9
Glancing Hits: 1.5
Penetration Hits: 1.5
Results
Shaken: 1.5
Stunned: 0.5
Weapon Destroyed: 0.5
Immobilized: 0.25
Wrecked: 0.25


-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

1x Particle Whip

Shooting Vs Vehicles

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Shots: 1
Direct Hit Chance: 44.44%
1" Scatter: 7.41%
2" Scatter: 9.26%
3" Scatter: 11.11%
4-6" Scatter: 22.22%
7"+ Scatter: 5.56%
Hits: 1
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Penetration Chance: 33.33%
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.333
Shaken: 0.139
Stunned: 0.083
Weapon Destroyed: 0.083
Immobilized: 0.083
Wrecked: 0.056
Explodes: 0.056
Options: Blast, Auto Hit

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 1
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.333
Results
Shaken: 0.139
Stunned: 0.083
Weapon Destroyed: 0.083
Immobilized: 0.083
Wrecked: 0.056
Explodes: 0.056


-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

What on earth is all that?? I did not understand it at all where are you getting 9 shots from anyway???? Please post clear math hammer next time.

I still would rather take my 8, twinlinked shots from 2 Annihilation barges vs 1 shot from the monolith.

66% chance the monolith will scatter
Think its something like 3 inches will make the center hole move off of a land raider completely, making the str of the blast only half. You then need to roll less than a 7 on a 2d6 to get that center hole over the land raider. You then need to roll an 8 to glance, so thats a 1/3 chance since you get to roll a 2d6.

I'm using a land raider since its a big target. Take something like a rhino, and your chance for missing completely goes up by a full inch, so you need to roll less than a 6 on a 2d6 when you scatter.

Not worth it IMO.

lol am i the one in denial or are you guys just feeding off internet babble?

First off again i repeat no way does AB compete with riflemen dreads

48" range hands down outclasses it
and it doesnt suffer from the ap -

I would love to play any of you with your ABs versus my psyriflemen dread and then we can compare. It'll take you 2 turns minimum to get anywhere near in range to shoot me while i comfortably destroy you from the back of my board edge.

I dont even know why anyone would even want to make that comparison.

So now i sound like an old school playe rhtat blah blah blah lolz or someone that bought an army off ebay ooooh right because i dont have a ton of battle reports winning with my necrons posted here on dakka from the previous codex. Yeah that's def not me

Nor do I own 3,500 of necrons with different models(some new some old) to play that I actually hit the tabletop and play every week, nope that's not me.

I'm the guy making argument based on internet theories and word of mouth.

We should call this Forumhammer 40k.

As for what someone said earlier about particle whip and flux arc not being able to fire at the same time. I've never said that they did, i said the monolith has the option to fire them and that 4 flux arcs do damage comparable to 2 ABs shooting at infantry.

Do the math hammer and see for yourself again
1 Monolith
Flux Arc vs T4
vs 6+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 4 Kills
vs 5+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 4 Kills
vs 4+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 2 Kills
vs 3+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 1 Kills

Flux Arc vs T3
vs 6+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 6 Kills
vs 5+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 6 Kills
vs 4+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 3 Kills
vs 3+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 2 Kills

Show me your mathhammer for 2 ABs versus the common infantry we see.

Cryage wrote:I still would rather take my 8, twinlinked shots from 2 Annihilation barges vs 1 shot from the monolith.

66% chance the monolith will scatter
Think its something like 3 inches will make the center hole move off of a land raider completely, making the str of the blast only half. You then need to roll less than a 7 on a 2d6 to get that center hole over the land raider. You then need to roll an 8 to glance, so thats a 1/3 chance since you get to roll a 2d6.

I'm using a land raider since its a big target. Take something like a rhino, and your chance for missing completely goes up by a full inch, so you need to roll less than a 6 on a 2d6 when you scatter.

Not worth it IMO.

BS 4 means you'll have to roll an 8 on 2D6 to not hit. Statistically 7 is the most commonly rolled number on 2D6. thus you have better than 50% chance to hit as I pointed out it should be something like 55% chance to hit or something i know i've seen the math hammer done on blasts vs vehicles before.

All of you that are trying to make it seem like the monolith is terrible are either not using the proper chance to hit or the proper chance to penetrate...how convenient.

Twice as many pens with a 1/6 chance to wreck a vehicle is as good an unmodified penetration chart. Yes, you cannot explode a vehicle, but the additional results compensates for it imo.

The shame about all of this is that I'm one of the few people that is a really staunch defender of the Monolith. However, I believe in defending the Monolith using just a touch of reality, rather than frothing-at-the-mouth hubris.

Akaiyou wrote:1. Unless you are playing in tournaments ONLY most armies wont be choke full of melta guns. I play MEQ armies (look at my sig) and even I don't own so many meltas. You are also wrong that every unit will have melta in it, you will see a lot more missile launchers or equivalent and they wont be hurting monoliths, but they'll rape ABs. Also from my own MEQ playing experience getting a melta gun in range is NOT so easy you have to be within 6" remember? Otherwise that melta is useless and we have a whole army of stuff to prevent enemies from getting within 6" of the monolith do we not? Or are we just letting them waltz in there?? Even still my argument still holds true that anything that can get a lucky penetrating hit on a monolith will decimate ABs.

If your army is built around protecting your Monolith, then you've got a poor army build. The Monolith doesn't deliver enough offensive power on its own to warrant being treated as the Ark of the Covenant. Also, when was the last time you saw a unit of Grey Hunters that did not have melta in it? Or BA combat marines?

Akaiyou wrote:2. Please show me the math on this. ABs are not likely to be destroying AV 11 with only S7 and AP -

4 Shots at BS 4 = 2.68 hits
TL re-roll 1.32 rolls = .88 more hits
Odds of rolling a 6 at least once during 5.32 rolls: 89% (1.78 more hits on average)
Total hits on average = 5.34
Str 7 vs AV 11:
1: no effect
2: no effect
3: no effect
4: glance
5: pen
6: pen
Odds of glancing at least: 50%
Odds of pen: 33%
Average rolls = 1.76 pens, or 2.67 glances or better.
Hence, on average you will do slightly better than 1 glance and 1 pen.

And I am well aware that you are shooting at -1 on the vehicle damage tables, however I never made any claims otherwise. I merely said that you will average a little better than 1 glance and 1 pen per round of shooting.

Akaiyou wrote:3. I play the hordies armies there is in 40k (again look at my sig). And yes we get cover saves pretty frequently in many different ways, some cover is always better than no cover. Rules state that the table should have 25% cover on it, and you get to decide where half of it is placed. There's no good reason why you shouldnt have some decent cover in every game unless again it's soem sort of tournament where they decide it for you and even then they always put in some good cover. The AB doesnt have the mobility to pick and choose fire lanes to deny cover without sacrificing a turn of shooting.

I think you're also forgetting that with the Annihilation Barge's lack of AP, cover means nothing to the Tesla guns. The Monolith, however, finds it AP3 largely unused in your description.

Akaiyou wrote:4. Tell that to all the terminators and special characters i've killed with it. Are you trying to take out monstrous creatures of something with it? Because it works perfectly fine against S3 and S4 models which the great majority of models in 40k are.

My monoliths have eaten a Calgar once, too. It's hilarious when it happens. However, the odds of the Monolith sucking up a MC is slim to none. I just don't envision a MC failing a Strength test that often, and I don't understand how you would even have a MC in range of the Roomba Door and expect the Monolith to survive. A MC with Str 7 + 2D6 will glance the Monolith on average, meaning if that MC gets 3 attacks it will on average deliver 1 glance and 1 pen to the Monolith.

Akaiyou wrote:5. Yeah you are correct 100%, but this also means the Monolith has superior LOS as it's tall enough to not be affected by other stuff that would grant cover to models beign hit by an AB's shots.

Considering you only need 50% of the model to be in cover, I think this situation is next to impossible considering the Annihilation Barge is on a stand, and the height difference is only about 1.5 inches to the jewel.

Akaiyou wrote:6. Agreed

7. Completely false, dedicated tank hunters...mmm it takes 27 lascannons at BS 4 to guarantee a kill against AV 14. It only takes 9 to gurantee a kill against AV 13 Open-Topped. That's a huge difference. 1 Monolith can take as much punishment as 3 ABs.

Your math does not resemble our Earth Math. The difference between AV 13 and AV 14 is 16.7% against anything rolling 1D6 for penetration. I won't argue that the Monolith is tougher, I'm just saying that if someone is using a unit that is dedicated to anti-tank, I think you're looking at a moot point. Anti-tank is called that for a reason. Str 8 melta means that on an average roll you get a pen on a Monolith (8 + 2D6 = 15)

Akaiyou wrote:8. Agreed

9. I mostly DS my Monoliths and do great. Unless they stall until turn 5 lol which sucks balls but otherwise the deep strike mechanism NEVER relied on protection against mishaps to be useful. The table is enormous and we have 24" weapons we dont need to be terribly close to stuff that will make us mishap. Assume that you'll roll a 7" scatter and choose a spot 8" away from anything that will make you mishap and you'll be fine. I almost never mishap and i deep strike all the time.

6"x6" Monlith, surrounded on all sides by 8" is a 22"x22" area. Considering the table is 48"x72", that's almost 1/2 of the table x 1/3 of the table, and you can't have any terrain in that zone. You are unlikely to find a spot that size, lacking any terrain, in order to safely deep strike the Monolith, unless you send it somewhere lacking any advantage to having used deep strike in the first place.

Akaiyou wrote:6. Deep Striking is a bonus option, if you ever watch the tv show DEADLIEST WARRIOR you would also agree that whoever has more tactical options has the edge, wether or not its used. More options is always better.

...okay, if you're trolling here, then let me know and I will exalt this post as the funniest one I've read in months.

Akaiyou wrote:lol am i the one in denial or are you guys just feeding off internet babble?

First off again i repeat no way does AB compete with riflemen dreads

48" range hands down outclasses it
and it doesnt suffer from the ap -

I would love to play any of you with your ABs versus my psyriflemen dread and then we can compare. It'll take you 2 turns minimum to get anywhere near in range to shoot me while i comfortably destroy you from the back of my board edge.


I dont even know why anyone would even want to make that comparison.

You started this thread, please, re-read the title. it is 1x Monolith vs 2x Annihilation barges... so please drop the side argument... Nobody is contesting how awesome the Dread's are.

Do the math hammer and see for yourself again
1 Monolith
Flux Arc vs T4
vs 6+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 4 Kills
vs 5+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 4 Kills
vs 4+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 2 Kills
vs 3+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 1 Kills

Flux Arc vs T3
vs 6+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 6 Kills
vs 5+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 6 Kills
vs 4+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 3 Kills
vs 3+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 2 Kills

Show me your mathhammer for 2 ABs versus the common infantry we see.

2x Annihilation barges
8 shots bs 4, 5 hits, twin linked 2 more hits, so 7 hits total. That's 11 rolls, probably 2 6's in there, that is 11 hits total. Vs T3 & 4, need 2's to wound, 9 wounds.

Flux Arc vs T3 & 4
vs 6+ = 7-8 Kills
vs 5+ = 6 Kills
vs 4+ = 4-5 Kills
vs 3+ = 3 Kills

Then a chance to arc out and hit any other units within 6" (33% chance with the 2 6's rolled above).

Yeah, i'll take my barges. Thanks

Oh, and by the way: please do not ever try to claim that 4x Flux Arcs can all hit the same unit. The Monolith must be surrounded by a single unit in order for that to take place.

Akaiyou wrote:As for what someone said earlier about particle whip and flux arc not being able to fire at the same time. I've never said that they did, i said the monolith has the option to fire them and that 4 flux arcs do damage comparable to 2 ABs shooting at infantry.

Do the math hammer and see for yourself again
1 Monolith
Flux Arc vs T4
vs 6+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 4 Kills
vs 5+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 4 Kills
vs 4+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 2 Kills
vs 3+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 1 Kills

Flux Arc vs T3
vs 6+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 6 Kills
vs 5+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 6 Kills
vs 4+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 3 Kills
vs 3+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 2 Kills

Show me your mathhammer for 2 ABs versus the common infantry we see.

Against T3 (ignores FNP), T4, or T5:
4 TL Shots at BS4 with Tesla rule = approximately 5.33 hits which equals 4.44 wounds before saves (armor or cover). Against 2+, 3+, or 4+, the results are the same. Against GEQ or Orks/Kroot you would see less kills, but cover is going to mitigate that difference somewhat. Also, the Tesla shots have a chance to bounce to other units which we don't take into consideration. Further... this was for ONE AB, so once the second AB is taken into account, the ABs have more firepower against common infantry.

@ Jihallah - Since it's quite clear that you want to be a douchebag then please explain because i obviously cant do math...where is that guy getting 9 shots from ???

Please review the forum rules. -Mannahnin
http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

I'm obviously too far beyond your level to comprehend

Also while we are at it the discussion has been how ABs and Monoliths compare against AV12 at the moment....how many AV12 vehicles do you own that are not wide enough to accomodate for 3" scatter?

3" scatter is regarded as the 'safe' zone to still have the center over the hull on all standard vehicles. Things like vypers/piranhas and walkers are not standard and not the subject of this AV12 discussion.

So get off your high horse mr you are being ridiculous.

Please review the forum rules. -Mannahnin
http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

Vehicles have different dimensions, aim a blast on a hammerhead and if it scatters to the sides you have less room to hit the hull but scatter up or down and you'll still hit even if only part of the center is over the hull thats a hit. Theres no such thing as a partial hit anymore. You are either on or off the hull

Regardless the probability would still sit comfortably at near 50% and still has a 75% chance to glance with a 50% chance to pen AV 12.

This indisputably more damaging than all those AB shots that are likely to get shaken results over and over on the same vehicle.

ABs do NOT increase your chance to immobilize/armament destroy anything. They ONLY increase your chance at getting shaken results and reduce your chance to destroy.

I don't understand why you folk keep going on about how you will be reliably disabling it and hoping to kill it through disabling it multiple times. 2 monolith turns shooting it will all but guarantee to obliterate that tank.

And if they are all lined up thats even better when you scatter its not a miss it'll hit something else valuable.

Akaiyou wrote:What on earth is all that?? I did not understand it at all where are you getting 9 shots from anyway???? Please post clear math hammer next time.

Let me help you a bit.

2x TL Tesla Destructors

9 hits - I used an average of 9 hits after tesla (which is a bit low, but lets go with it: 8 TL BS 4 shots = 7.11 hits and at least one of those being a 6 adding 2 more hits with the Tesla rule)
16.67% chance to pen per shot / 16.67% chance to glance per shot

To get at least one of a given result, your chances are:
Shaken: 80.62%
Stunned: 40.22%
Weapon Destroyed: 40.22%
Immobilized: 22.40%
Wrecked: 22.40%
Explodes: 0%

Particle Whip

1 hit (actually, it's about 55% chance of getting a hit with scatter, but let's assume we are lucky)
25% chance to glance per shot / 50%to pen per shot (I did fail to take into account that it is ordnance the first run)

To get at least one of a given result, your chances are:
Shaken: 20.84%
Stunned: 12.5%
Weapon Destroyed: 12.5%
Immobilized: 12.5%
Wrecked: 8.34%
Explodes: 8.34%

It's a simple fact that the volume of fire vastly overcomes the lower str and AP-

Akaiyou wrote:Regardless the probability would still sit comfortably at near 50% and still has a 75% chance to glance with a 50% chance to pen AV 12.

This indisputably more damaging than all those AB shots that are likely to get shaken results over and over on the same vehicle.

ABs do NOT increase your chance to immobilize/armament destroy anything. They ONLY increase your chance at getting shaken results and reduce your chance to destroy.

I don't understand why you folk keep going on about how you will be reliably disabling it and hoping to kill it through disabling it multiple times. 2 monolith turns shooting it will all but guarantee to obliterate that tank.

And if they are all lined up thats even better when you scatter its not a miss it'll hit something else valuable.

Basic math: You are saying that a Particle Whip a 50% chance to hit and a 50% chance to pen AV12. Let's go with that for the moment. That's an expected value of .25 Pens. That is basically .08333 chance to wreck/explode.
A SINGLE AB has an expected value of .885 Pens with a -1 to the chart. At a 1/6 chance to wreck you still have an expected .14 chance to wreck it. A SINGLE BARGE has a better chance to wreck an AV12 vehicle than a Particle Whip... using your own numbers.