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Gornall just lawyered this thread.

Um, a single Str 8 Particle Whip doesn't have a 50% chance to pen AV 12. It has a 50% chance to glance AV 12.

It actually only has about a 42% chance to pen AV 12

azazel the cat wrote:The shame about all of this is that I'm one of the few people that is a really staunch defender of the Monolith. However, I believe in defending the Monolith using just a touch of reality, rather than frothing-at-the-mouth hubris.

Akaiyou wrote:1. Unless you are playing in tournaments ONLY most armies wont be choke full of melta guns. I play MEQ armies (look at my sig) and even I don't own so many meltas. You are also wrong that every unit will have melta in it, you will see a lot more missile launchers or equivalent and they wont be hurting monoliths, but they'll rape ABs. Also from my own MEQ playing experience getting a melta gun in range is NOT so easy you have to be within 6" remember? Otherwise that melta is useless and we have a whole army of stuff to prevent enemies from getting within 6" of the monolith do we not? Or are we just letting them waltz in there?? Even still my argument still holds true that anything that can get a lucky penetrating hit on a monolith will decimate ABs.

If your army is built around protecting your Monolith, then you've got a poor army build. The Monolith doesn't deliver enough offensive power on its own to warrant being treated as the Ark of the Covenant. Also, when was the last time you saw a unit of Grey Hunters that did not have melta in it? Or BA combat marines?

Akaiyou wrote:2. Please show me the math on this. ABs are not likely to be destroying AV 11 with only S7 and AP -

4 Shots at BS 4 = 2.68 hits
TL re-roll 1.32 rolls = .88 more hits
Odds of rolling a 6 at least once during 5.32 rolls: 89% (1.78 more hits on average)
Total hits on average = 5.34
Str 7 vs AV 11:
1: no effect
2: no effect
3: no effect
4: glance
5: pen
6: pen
Odds of glancing at least: 50%
Odds of pen: 33%
Average rolls = 1.76 pens, or 2.67 glances or better.
Hence, on average you will do slightly better than 1 glance and 1 pen.

And I am well aware that you are shooting at -1 on the vehicle damage tables, however I never made any claims otherwise. I merely said that you will average a little better than 1 glance and 1 pen per round of shooting.

Akaiyou wrote:3. I play the hordies armies there is in 40k (again look at my sig). And yes we get cover saves pretty frequently in many different ways, some cover is always better than no cover. Rules state that the table should have 25% cover on it, and you get to decide where half of it is placed. There's no good reason why you shouldnt have some decent cover in every game unless again it's soem sort of tournament where they decide it for you and even then they always put in some good cover. The AB doesnt have the mobility to pick and choose fire lanes to deny cover without sacrificing a turn of shooting.

I think you're also forgetting that with the Annihilation Barge's lack of AP, cover means nothing to the Tesla guns. The Monolith, however, finds it AP3 largely unused in your description.

Akaiyou wrote:4. Tell that to all the terminators and special characters i've killed with it. Are you trying to take out monstrous creatures of something with it? Because it works perfectly fine against S3 and S4 models which the great majority of models in 40k are.

My monoliths have eaten a Calgar once, too. It's hilarious when it happens. However, the odds of the Monolith sucking up a MC is slim to none. I just don't envision a MC failing a Strength test that often, and I don't understand how you would even have a MC in range of the Roomba Door and expect the Monolith to survive. A MC with Str 7 + 2D6 will glance the Monolith on average, meaning if that MC gets 3 attacks it will on average deliver 1 glance and 1 pen to the Monolith.

Akaiyou wrote:5. Yeah you are correct 100%, but this also means the Monolith has superior LOS as it's tall enough to not be affected by other stuff that would grant cover to models beign hit by an AB's shots.

Considering you only need 50% of the model to be in cover, I think this situation is next to impossible considering the Annihilation Barge is on a stand, and the height difference is only about 1.5 inches to the jewel.

Akaiyou wrote:6. Agreed

7. Completely false, dedicated tank hunters...mmm it takes 27 lascannons at BS 4 to guarantee a kill against AV 14. It only takes 9 to gurantee a kill against AV 13 Open-Topped. That's a huge difference. 1 Monolith can take as much punishment as 3 ABs.

Your math does not resemble our Earth Math. The difference between AV 13 and AV 14 is 16.7% against anything rolling 1D6 for penetration. I won't argue that the Monolith is tougher, I'm just saying that if someone is using a unit that is dedicated to anti-tank, I think you're looking at a moot point. Anti-tank is called that for a reason. Str 8 melta means that on an average roll you get a pen on a Monolith (8 + 2D6 = 15)

Akaiyou wrote:8. Agreed

9. I mostly DS my Monoliths and do great. Unless they stall until turn 5 lol which sucks balls but otherwise the deep strike mechanism NEVER relied on protection against mishaps to be useful. The table is enormous and we have 24" weapons we dont need to be terribly close to stuff that will make us mishap. Assume that you'll roll a 7" scatter and choose a spot 8" away from anything that will make you mishap and you'll be fine. I almost never mishap and i deep strike all the time.

6"x6" Monlith, surrounded on all sides by 8" is a 22"x22" area. Considering the table is 48"x72", that's almost 1/2 of the table x 1/3 of the table, and you can't have any terrain in that zone. You are unlikely to find a spot that size, lacking any terrain, in order to safely deep strike the Monolith, unless you send it somewhere lacking any advantage to having used deep strike in the first place.

Akaiyou wrote:6. Deep Striking is a bonus option, if you ever watch the tv show DEADLIEST WARRIOR you would also agree that whoever has more tactical options has the edge, wether or not its used. More options is always better.

...okay, if you're trolling here, then let me know and I will exalt this post as the funniest one I've read in months.

1. You are out of touch with reality if you think the 2 ABs are superior.

2. NOTICE that i said show me how they can DESTROY AV 11...why are you convenientnly NOT showing me that? Oooh maybe its because all you are getting out of all those shots are a ton of shaken results? Yep...that sounds about right

3. Thus the monolith has the flux arc which gives it the options that the AB doesnt have. And when you do get a clean shot the particle whip is more damaging to practically any unit type. The monolith is tall enough that it can get better LOS than a ABs

4. You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension here, I was asking HIM if he was trying to fry MCs with the portal of exile in other words i was telling him that was a bad idea and no wonder it would never work for him. However against S3 and S4 models the portal of exile is great and where the hell are you getting this calculation that the chance is slim to none??? If they are close enough you only need move up get them within 1" and portal of exile their faces off, S4 models have a 33% chance of being removed and S3 models have a 50% chance of being removed. You can annhilate seer councils with that

Im not even a math major but jeezus this is simply math people...stop claiming stuff without actually using it or working out the probabilities on it. smh...slim to none...smh....

5. DId you actually measure the height difference or is this another one of those 'slim to none' arguments here? The way i see it the monolith has much better LOS and even 1.5 inches of extra height works wonders in denying cover ats basically an infantry model's worth.

6. My math is wrong? this coming from the guy that says you have a slim to none chance of killing outright a S4 model with portal of exile? Show me your math then how many lascannons can a monolith take to before it gets destroyed? Matter of fact since you are so smart show me every single AT weapon in the game and aim iat at AV 14 monolith and Quantum Shielded Annhilation Barge.

Please take your time i'll wait lets see if the monolith can't take a pounding better than 2 or possibly even 3 ABs from every single AT weapon out there.

7. Terrain doesnt make you mishap on deep strike. It's just a dangerous terrain test.so wtf are you on about? You can land anywhere you want as long as its not off the table or within 1" of an enemy model.

@ Cryage - I didnt bring up the rifleman argument one of you guys did, so i will respond to it because it's a silly comparison like mostof what you guys have presented.

- Do proper math hammer im getting tired of how you people conveniently leave out details

9 wounds and the opponent gets no saves???? That's so convenienetly dimissed you people are making me sick with this crap if you cant make a fair argument then dont make any and go entertain youself elsewhere.


TL 8 Shots from barge = 10.66 hits = 8.83 wounds

vs 6+ = 7.35 Kills
vs 5+ = 5.88 Kills
vs 4+ = 4.41 Kills
vs 3+ = 2.94 Kills

compared to
T4
vs 6+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 4 Kills
vs 5+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 4 Kills
vs 4+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 2 Kills
vs 3+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 1 Kills

T3
vs 6+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 6 Kills
vs 5+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 6 Kills
vs 4+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 3 Kills
vs 3+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 2 Kills


This is comparable anti infantry power. If the ABs could do twice as much damage then they would be the def winner but the monolith proves that it can keep up specially against T3. And still has the option to lay waste to anything outside of cover with the particle whip which the tesla destructor does not have

azazel the cat wrote:Oh, and by the way: please do not ever try to claim that 4x Flux Arcs can all hit the same unit. The Monolith must be surrounded by a single unit in order for that to take place.

- in that case i CAN claim that it 'can' hit a single unit with all 4. So you just contradicted yourself also dont forget the flux arcs are spoonsons you can rotate them, its not hard to get 3 to aim at the same target. if from the tip of the gun they all have a 45 degree ark. Just pivot the monolith and voila. In any case you are all too focused on the flux arc im using the flux arc as an example to show that the monolith CAN shoot at multiple targets which is the highest advantage the 2 ABs have and that it CAN do similar damage to mulitple infantry units comparable to what 2 ABs can do.


That's the point dont miss it



Automatically Appended Next Post:

azazel the cat wrote:Um, a single Str 8 Particle Whip doesn't have a 50% chance to pen AV 12. It has a 50% chance to glance AV 12.

It actually only has about a 42% chance to pen AV 12

ORDNANCE STRENGTH 8

Akaiyou: Maelstrom808 has done the math and shown that you are incorrect. Everyone should defer that Maelstrom808's math. Akaiyou, regardless of your inability to do the actual math on the tesla destructors, it has been demonstrated that the 2 ABs are clearly superior to the Monolith when firing at AV12 targets. Av 11 targets will produce the same winner.

You are correct in that there will be many shaken results when firing the tesla destructors at vehicles. In fact, there is an 80.62% chance to get at least one shaken result from the 2 ABs firing at an Av12 vehicle, which is in fact insanely high. However, the chance of scoring at least one wrecked result from the 2 ABs are better than the chance the Monolith will score a wrecked or explode result. The math has been done, you are wrong. Please stop asserting the contrary point or post the math demonstrating why this is false.

Move on to arguing other points or conceding the debate.

Akaiyou wrote:
2. NOTICE that i said show me how they can DESTROY AV 11...why are you convenientnly NOT showing me that? Oooh maybe its because all you are getting out of all those shots are a ton of shaken results? Yep...that sounds about right

I did for AV12. It only gets better for the ABs against AV11.

Yeah, Ordnance Str 8 means you get a 50% chance to glance AV 12. Ya see, you roll 2D6 and pick the best result. So average a 3 and a 4. You take the 4. 8 + 4 = 12

And I won't dispute that the Roomba Door of the Monolith is great a sucking up squads of Str 4 infantry. But I said it will almost never happen. Because the Monolith is big and slow, and the only reason it will ever be right beside enemy infantry, is because the infantry choose to personally hand-deliver meltabombs to the Monolith. You will almost never get the Monolith that close to an opponent's units unless your opponent wants you to.

And for the flux arcs, your argument is just stupid. Technically, it is mathematically possible for your opponent to roll only 1s, all game long. But I'll put any value of money down saying that it will never happen during any game that I watch. If you want a reasonable comparison, you should compare the Flux Arcs when you only use 2, as it is extremely uncommon (to the point where it's almost fictitious) to hit the same unit with 3 Flux Arcs in the same turn.

This is why I said that I defend the Monolith with my feet grounded in reality. Your Monolith dreams don't really work out the way you claim in the real world.

TY Dracos

As shown, the ABs have a better chance of destroying the target outright, and failing that, they have a better chance of doing at least SOMETHING to the target...an immobile transport is almost as good as destroyed, a tank that can't shoot is almost as good as destroyed...and incapacitating them for a turn is better than doing nothing. It's a basic truth of warhammer: single blasts suck at AT duties. They can get better if you can get twin-linking involved, or get some sort of volume of blasts; but generally speaking, volume of fire will always win out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vs AV 11

2x TL Tesla Destructors

9 hits - I used an average of 9 hits after tesla (which is a bit low, but lets go with it: 8 TL BS 4 shots = 7.11 hits and at least one of those being a 6 adding 2 more hits with the Tesla rule)
16.67% chance to pen per shot / 33.33% chance to glance per shot

To get at least one of a given result, your chances are:
Shaken: 89.56%
Stunned: 54.30%
Weapon Destroyed: 54.30%
Immobilized: 40.22%
Wrecked: 40.22%
Explodes: 0%

Particle Whip

1 hit (actually, it's about 55% chance of getting a hit with scatter, but let's assume we are lucky)
22.22% chance to glance per shot / 66.67%to pen per shot

To get at least one of a given result, your chances are:
Shaken: 22.22%
Stunned: 14.82%
Weapon Destroyed: 14.82%
Immobilized: 14.82%
Wrecked: 11.11%
Explodes: 11.11%

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:What on earth is all that?? I did not understand it at all where are you getting 9 shots from anyway???? Please post clear math hammer next time.

Let me help you a bit.

2x TL Tesla Destructors

9 hits - I used an average of 9 hits after tesla (which is a bit low, but lets go with it: 8 TL BS 4 shots = 7.11 hits and at least one of those being a 6 adding 2 more hits with the Tesla rule)
16.67% chance to pen per shot / 16.67% chance to glance per shot

To get at least one of a given result, your chances are:
Shaken: 80.62%
Stunned: 40.22%
Weapon Destroyed: 40.22%
Immobilized: 22.40%
Wrecked: 22.40%
Explodes: 0%

Particle Whip

1 hit (actually, it's about 55% chance of getting a hit with scatter, but let's assume we are lucky)
25% chance to glance per shot / 50%to pen per shot (I did fail to take into account that it is ordnance the first run)

To get at least one of a given result, your chances are:
Shaken: 20.84%
Stunned: 12.5%
Weapon Destroyed: 12.5%
Immobilized: 12.5%
Wrecked: 8.34%
Explodes: 8.34%

It's a simple fact that the volume of fire vastly overcomes the lower str and AP-

This is more understandable.

However from all those tesla shots only 3.5 will get to see the damage table. How are you getting 22% chance to wreck from half of the 3.5 hits being pen? All of those glances will most likely end in shaken by a large margin and the pens mixed in doesnt vastly improve the chance of other results unless you are assuming a lot of those are going to be penetrating hits which is unrealistic as you only pen with 1/6 you are counting on the odds being in your favor with the pens to boost the results??

75% chance to damage with 1 shot no minuses
or
33% chance to damage from several shots with high degree of shaken results

I rather destroy a transport than just shake it.

But I concede your mathhammer does seem correct and as I said i'm not a math major but I do understand basic probability. So i take solace in knowing that I can explode a vehicle and target all AV values while having longer staying power to actually keep doing damage.

azazel the cat wrote:Yeah, Ordnance Str 8 means you get a 50% chance to glance AV 12. Ya see, you roll 2D6 and pick the best result. So average a 3 and a 4. You take the 4. 8 + 4 = 12

And I won't dispute that the Roomba Door of the Monolith is great a sucking up squads of Str 4 infantry. But I said it will almost never happen. Because the Monolith is big and slow, and the only reason it will ever be right beside enemy infantry, is because the infantry choose to personally hand-deliver meltabombs to the Monolith. You will almost never get the Monolith that close to an opponent's units unless your opponent wants you to.

And for the flux arcs, your argument is just stupid. Technically, it is mathematically possible for your opponent to roll only 1s, all game long. But I'll put any value of money down saying that it will never happen during any game that I watch. If you want a reasonable comparison, you should compare the Flux Arcs when you only use 2, as it is extremely uncommon (to the point where it's almost fictitious) to hit the same unit with 3 Flux Arcs in the same turn.

This is why I said that I defend the Monolith with my feet grounded in reality. Your Monolith dreams don't really work out the way you claim in the real world.

You do realize that there's more than 3s and 4s on dice right??

You glance on a 4. So technically you get a 4+ twin linked which = 75% chance to glance at least
you pen on a 5. this means 5+ TL which is 50% chance to pen.

Everyone dial back the hostility. Any further rude posts in this thread will result in suspensions.

Akaiyou wrote:But I concede your mathhammer does seem correct and as I said i'm not a math major but I do understand basic probability. So i take solace in knowing that I can explode a vehicle and target all AV values while having longer staying power to actually keep doing damage.

Fair enough. That seems to be the main trade-off with the two... The Monolith can stand up much better against non-melta weapons than ABs can, but the ABs have more firepower against MOST (not all) targets.

Well, this thread had some interesting results while I was gone.

Gornall wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:But I concede your mathhammer does seem correct and as I said i'm not a math major but I do understand basic probability. So i take solace in knowing that I can explode a vehicle and target all AV values while having longer staying power to actually keep doing damage.

Fair enough. That seems to be the main trade-off with the two... The Monolith can stand up much better against non-melta weapons than ABs can, but the ABs have more firepower against MOST (not all) targets.

I still disagree there the monolith has the most fire power against 'most' targets.

Because as all of you keep bringing up in the melta argument. Most armies out there are 3+ saves lists the monolith has the ability to threaten all targets which was my main point that i was trying to make when everything derailed.

It can attafck anything and do damage regardless not even terminators are 100% safe.

It has 3 different attack modes and one that can never be destroyed (portal)

Akaiyou wrote:

I still disagree there the monolith has the most fire power against 'most' targets.

Because as all of you keep bringing up in the melta argument. Most armies out there are 3+ saves lists the monolith has the ability to threaten all targets which was my main point that i was trying to make when everything derailed.

It can attafck anything and do damage regardless not even terminators are 100% safe.

It has 3 different attack modes and one that can never be destroyed (portal)

Mmm. . . Can attack anything, yes. Most firepower, no.

We've seen all the numbers here. Annihilation Barges do more damage to infantry in general, though the Monolith is close; they're better at taking down AV 11 and AV 12 vehicles. The only thing Monoliths do better is attacking AV 13 and 14 vehicles. . . and they're so bad at that, I'd say that neither Annihilation Barges nor Monoliths have any business trying it.

Akaiyou wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:But I concede your mathhammer does seem correct and as I said i'm not a math major but I do understand basic probability. So i take solace in knowing that I can explode a vehicle and target all AV values while having longer staying power to actually keep doing damage.

Fair enough. That seems to be the main trade-off with the two... The Monolith can stand up much better against non-melta weapons than ABs can, but the ABs have more firepower against MOST (not all) targets.

I still disagree there the monolith has the most fire power against 'most' targets.

Because as all of you keep bringing up in the melta argument. Most armies out there are 3+ saves lists the monolith has the ability to threaten all targets which was my main point that i was trying to make when everything derailed.

It can attafck anything and do damage regardless not even terminators are 100% safe.

It has 3 different attack modes and one that can never be destroyed (portal)

The monolith only has more firepower against:

1. Non-TEQ infantry outside of cover... as long as they are in a good pieplate formation
2. AV13-14 (which it is not that great at hurting)
3. MEQs with FNP

Against anything in cover (including MEQ units that do not have 6 guys under the pieplate), or any non-AV13+ vehicle, ABs do more damage point for point. That means that both units are situational.... ABs are better in some lists and Monoliths are better in others. Neither one is a must take, but I would argue that ABs are easier to shoehorn into most lists than a Monolith.

EDIT: Forgot about FNP

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:

I still disagree there the monolith has the most fire power against 'most' targets.

Because as all of you keep bringing up in the melta argument. Most armies out there are 3+ saves lists the monolith has the ability to threaten all targets which was my main point that i was trying to make when everything derailed.

It can attafck anything and do damage regardless not even terminators are 100% safe.

It has 3 different attack modes and one that can never be destroyed (portal)

Mmm. . . Can attack anything, yes. Most firepower, no.

We've seen all the numbers here. Annihilation Barges do more damage to any infantry, though the Monolith is close; they're better at taking down AV 11 and AV 12 vehicles. The only thing Monoliths do better is attacking AV 13 and 14 vehicles. . . and they're so bad at that, I'd say that neither Annihilation Barges nor Monoliths have any business trying it.

I can agree with that statement, in which case this just begs the question who's better at dealing with armored infantry??

And i think there the monolith wins hands down. Not to mention that it can ID T4 models. and RFP S4 Models with Eternal Warrior. That's gotta count for something! More options = More kill power


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gornall wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:But I concede your mathhammer does seem correct and as I said i'm not a math major but I do understand basic probability. So i take solace in knowing that I can explode a vehicle and target all AV values while having longer staying power to actually keep doing damage.

Fair enough. That seems to be the main trade-off with the two... The Monolith can stand up much better against non-melta weapons than ABs can, but the ABs have more firepower against MOST (not all) targets.

I still disagree there the monolith has the most fire power against 'most' targets.

Because as all of you keep bringing up in the melta argument. Most armies out there are 3+ saves lists the monolith has the ability to threaten all targets which was my main point that i was trying to make when everything derailed.

It can attafck anything and do damage regardless not even terminators are 100% safe.

It has 3 different attack modes and one that can never be destroyed (portal)

The monolith only has more firepower against:

1. Non-TEQ infantry outside of cover... as long as they are in a good pieplate formation
2. AV13-14 (which it is not that great at hurting)

Against anything in cover (including MEQ units that do not have 6 guys under the pieplate), or any non-AV13+ vehicle, ABs do more damage point for point. That means that both units are situational.... ABs are better in some lists and Monoliths are better in others. Neither one is a must take, but I would argue that ABs are easier to shoehorn into most lists than a Monolith.

Even in cover unless you are using a lot of bunkers and area terrain those MEQ that are over abundant in the metagame will only be getting a 4+ cover save or 5+.

This will do significantly more damage from a Monolith's particle whip forcing them to save on 4s or 5s than the ABs unloading and only getting 2 kills from the 3+ saves.

The monolith wins against MEQ even if it only hits 4 marines that's at the very least a draw. And with how big the large blast is you can more often than not get more than 4 guys under.

The thing is this: Monoliths are MUCH better at killing MEQ in the open, and definately against FnP, but who in their right mind is going to leave their MEQ out in the open if they are threatened by S8 AP3 large blasts? They will mostly be in cover, and spread out as soon as the mono becomes a threat. At that point, the ABs again start to at least pull even (10 marines in cover, the 2x ABs are equal to the monolith being able to cover 6 marines with the template..any less and the ABs pull ahead)

The another thing is while yes, the monolith is a much hardier target than the ABs, you start to introduce target saturation with the ABs. If they opposition has only a few units that can deal with AV 13-14, they have to either divide that fire up (reducing their changes of doing anything to either unit) or focus it on one target (leaving the other free to cause another turn's worth of damage).

I think Monoliths have a place, but the same thing from the old dex holds true, even moreso with the loss of the old living metal: You can't take just one. You have to have a list built around taking full advantage of what the Monolith offers: rangeless teleporting, mobile LOS terrain, and provocing the "OMG must shoot the big expensive model!!!" reaction from your opponent. You don't take them for their fire support, anymore than you would take a ghost ark for it's fire support. The mono's weapons are simply a bonus to the other qualities it has. The monolith just is not going to mesh as well into most lists as other, cheaper heavy support options.

Maelstrom808 wrote:The thing is this: Monoliths are MUCH better at killing MEQ in the open, and definately against FnP, but who in their right mind is going to leave their MEQ out in the open if they are threatened by S8 AP3 large blasts? They will mostly be in cover, and spread out as soon as the mono becomes a threat. At that point, the ABs again start to at least pull even (10 marines in cover, the 2x ABs are equal to the monolith being able to cover 6 marines with the template..any less and the ABs pull ahead)

The another thing is while yes, the monolith is a much hardier target than the ABs, you start to introduce target saturation with the ABs. If they opposition has only a few units that can deal with AV 13-14, they have to either divide that fire up (reducing their changes of doing anything to either unit) or focus it on one target (leaving the other free to cause another turn's worth of damage).

I think Monoliths have a place, but the same thing from the old dex holds true, even moreso with the loss of the old living metal: You can't take just one. You have to have a list built around taking full advantage of what the Monolith offers: rangeless teleporting, mobile LOS terrain, and provocing the "OMG must shoot the big expensive model!!!" reaction from your opponent. You don't take them for their fire support, anymore than you would take a ghost ark for it's fire support. The mono's weapons are simply a bonus to the other qualities it has. The monolith just is not going to mesh as well into most lists as other, cheaper heavy support options.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say from the start, and I agree 100% with you.

Akaiyou wrote: Even in cover unless you are using a lot of bunkers and area terrain those MEQ that are over abundant in the metagame will only be getting a 4+ cover save or 5+.

This will do significantly more damage from a Monolith's particle whip forcing them to save on 4s or 5s than the ABs unloading and only getting 2 kills from the 3+ saves.

The monolith wins against MEQ even if it only hits 4 marines that's at the very least a draw. And with how big the large blast is you can more often than not get more than 4 guys under.

Two ABs cause 8.83 wounds against MEQ. With a 3+ save that translates to 2.94 dead Marines.

A Particle whip shot hits 6 Marines and wound 5. That is 2.5 saves from cover. So actually it takes more Marines under the whip to pull even.

Gornall wrote:Two ABs cause 8.83 wounds against MEQ. With a 3+ save that translates to 2.94 dead Marines.

7.5 wounds, assuming 9 hits, which puts them almost exactly even..but the point still stands.

Maelstrom808 wrote:The thing is this: Monoliths are MUCH better at killing MEQ in the open, and definately against FnP, but who in their right mind is going to leave their MEQ out in the open if they are threatened by S8 AP3 large blasts? They will mostly be in cover, and spread out as soon as the mono becomes a threat. At that point, the ABs again start to at least pull even (10 marines in cover, the 2x ABs are equal to the monolith being able to cover 6 marines with the template..any less and the ABs pull ahead)

The another thing is while yes, the monolith is a much hardier target than the ABs, you start to introduce target saturation with the ABs. If they opposition has only a few units that can deal with AV 13-14, they have to either divide that fire up (reducing their changes of doing anything to either unit) or focus it on one target (leaving the other free to cause another turn's worth of damage).

I think Monoliths have a place, but the same thing from the old dex holds true, even moreso with the loss of the old living metal: You can't take just one. You have to have a list built around taking full advantage of what the Monolith offers: rangeless teleporting, mobile LOS terrain, and provocing the "OMG must shoot the big expensive model!!!" reaction from your opponent. You don't take them for their fire support, anymore than you would take a ghost ark for it's fire support. The mono's weapons are simply a bonus to the other qualities it has. The monolith just is not going to mesh as well into most lists as other, cheaper heavy support options.

Show me the math hammer since urs is better than mine for 6 marines in cover being shot by 2 tesla destructors and 1 particle whip. Monolith should have the advantage there from my estimate. as long as the monolith can wound 4 MEQ even in cover, it should have the advantage as thats the point where it should break even.

As for marines not coming out of their transports. well not EVERY MEQ list has their units in transports, long fangs for example are never shooting you from inside the transport. Transport rush is common place and are we assuming that we have nothing in our list that can wreck that transport??

At the moment your argument is 'well the MEQ will never be out on the field to be hit'
where the realitiy is that current meta is transport spam fest usually rushing and sniping out each other. In a tournament setting a Necron player would prepare for such an event accordingly and bring a ton of can openers and then MEQ are easy pickings for the monolith.

Also i want to note that im not solely discussing things on a tournament setting even though by nature the conversation will drift there, most people wont just transport spam because its expensive to get all that stuff and in standard games you dont want to be the douche. So you'll find loads of MEQ out in the open.

Howver i do agree that usually they will spread out their formations to minimize blast damage, it doesnt mean that they can avoid it entirely however.

So i think my argument that the monolith beign able to better deal with 4+ saves and lower being better still holds. Not to mention ID anything T4 which goes a looooong way.

Biker Nobz, Eldar Bikers, Tyranid Warriors, so many great targets to pick off with a monolith and severaly cripple an enemy army. The ABs cannot do the same level of damage when you expand the range of targets

EDIT: Alright so must nail 6 on to wound to come out on top instead of the 4 i estimated.

Mostly math here:
How many hits do I get with twin-linked telsa?

Let's say you take 36 shots (because mutliple of 6 make it easy with rerolls).
24 hits, +12 bonus hits from 6's = 36 hits.
12 missed get re-rolled (twin-linked), generating another 8 hits + 4 bonus hits = 12 hits from re-rolls.
36 hits (initial roll) + 12 hits (from rerolls) = 48 hits from 36 shots.
That means, you average 1.33 hits from every twin-linked telsa shot.

Two AB's toss out 8 shots. That averages 10.67 hits.


Now, lets look at the monolith.
1/3rd hit (as in scatter die HIT).
2/3rds scatter, at which point the exerise melts down.
The size and shape of the target suddenly matter, as does the direction of scatter. While this can by calculated for a single target, what would that target be?

What is AV12? Dreadnoughts (very small footprint), Wave Serpeants (who gain the field vs the monolith), Devilfish, Storm Raven? I'd discount side armor shots, neither has the speed to reliably get side armor.



The biggest flaw in the 1 mono vs 2 AB is that you have a hard limit of 3 heavy support choices.
If I could take 2 AB for 1 heavy slot I would take 6 barges!


For the Rifle dread vs AB, I wouldn't count on 48" of shooting in an army with so much night.

-Matt

When I say in the open, I mean not in cover. My argument is the marines will rarely be out of cover. Transports are another situation altogether..and really a list that doesn't rely on transports is going to be even more heavily reliant on being in cover. Anyway, the math:

2x TL Tesla Destructors vs 10 marines in 4+ cover (not that it matters since their armor save is better)

9 hits
7.5 wounds (83.33% chance to wound)
5 saves (66.67% chance to save)
2.5 dead marines

1x Particle Whip vs 10 marines in 4+ cover (6 under the blast marker)

6 hits
5 wounds (83.33% chance to wound)
2.5 saves (50% chance to save)
2.5 dead marines

And really, if you want to do any of the math yourself: http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php

That is a wonderful and reliable little tool.

Akaiyou wrote:Show me the math hammer since urs is better than mine for 6 marines in cover being shot by 2 tesla destructors and 1 particle whip. Monolith should have the advantage there from my estimate. as long as the monolith can wound 4 MEQ even in cover, it should have the advantage as thats the point where it should break even.

As for marines not coming out of their transports. well not EVERY MEQ list has their units in transports, long fangs for example are never shooting you from inside the transport. Transport rush is common place and are we assuming that we have nothing in our list that can wreck that transport??

At the moment your argument is 'well the MEQ will never be out on the field to be hit'
where the realitiy is that current meta is transport spam fest usually rushing and sniping out each other. In a tournament setting a Necron player would prepare for such an event accordingly and bring a ton of can openers and then MEQ are easy pickings for the monolith.

Also i want to note that im not solely discussing things on a tournament setting even though by nature the conversation will drift there, most people wont just transport spam because its expensive to get all that stuff and in standard games you dont want to be the douche. So you'll find loads of MEQ out in the open.

Howver i do agree that usually they will spread out their formations to minimize blast damage, it doesnt mean that they can avoid it entirely however.

So i think my argument that the monolith beign able to better deal with 4+ saves and lower being better still holds. Not to mention ID anything T4 which goes a looooong way.

Biker Nobz, Eldar Bikers, Tyranid Warriors, so many great targets to pick off with a monolith and severaly cripple an enemy army. The ABs cannot do the same level of damage when you expand the range of targets

EDIT: Alright so must nail 6 on to wound to come out on top instead of the 4 i estimated.

I'll be honest in that I have not focused on multi-wound T4 models. I simply don't see them that often where I play, unless they are Draigowing. Against single wound models though, the Particle Whip is ONLY better than two ABs when:

In cover: (Taking the number of expected dead models from the ABs divided by the Particle Whips 5/6 chance to wound.)
4+ through 6+: 9+ Infantry under the template
3+ Saves: 6+ Infantry under the template
2+ Saves: 9+ Infantry under the template

Out of cover: (Taking the number of expected dead models from the ABs divided by the Particle Whips 5/6 chance to wound.)
6+: 8+ Infantry under the template
5+: 7+ Infantry under the template
4+: 5+ Infantry under the template
3+: 3+ Infantry under the template
2+: 9+ Infantry under the template

So the particle whip performs better against MEQs out of cover or multi-wound/FNP T4 models. Against anything else, you need lots of guys under the blast template to keep up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Anyway, the math:

2x TL Tesla Destructors vs 10 marines in 4+ cover (not that it matters since their armor save is better)

9 hits

Two TL Tesla Destructors deal 10.533 hits.

Maelstrom808 wrote:When I say in the open, I mean not in cover. My argument is the marines will rarely be out of cover. Transports are another situation altogether..and really a list that doesn't rely on transports is going to be even more heavily reliant on being in cover. Anyway, the math:

2x TL Tesla Destructors vs 10 marines in 4+ cover (not that it matters since their armor save is better)

9 hits
7.5 wounds (83.33% chance to wound)
5 saves (66.67% chance to save)
2.5 dead marines

1x Particle Whip vs 10 marines in 4+ cover (6 under the blast marker)

6 hits
5 wounds (83.33% chance to wound)
2.5 saves (50% chance to save)
2.5 dead marines

And really, if you want to do any of the math yourself: http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php

That is a wonderful and reliable little tool.

-bows-

Dude ive been looking for one of those calculators for 5th ed for the longest

I had one for 4th ed called the killing power calculator but it never got updated and became obsolete so thank you very much for that link. Feel free to share any other such useful tools

Also on that breakdown of damage in and out of cover this is what i mean that the monolith is more versatile.

Flux arc against units savign on 5+/6+
Particle whip against 4+/3+
Portal of Exile against 2+

the monolith should pull ahead against 4+/3+ as its not too hard to get at least 5 guys under the template. It lags behind against the low save units but hey it still does comparable damage does it not? and lastly the teslas versus terminator armor and the like doesnt really cut it, i dont think anyone will actualy aim at them with it too frequently where as the portal of exile can deal with them easier if you can maanage the feat of getting them within its range

I concede that the ABs together are much better than i originally gave them credit for but i just think the monolith has the edge in versatility where as in kill power they seem to be more evenly split into one being good against one thing and the other being good against another thing wether infantry or tanks.

So how about we all agree that 1 Monolith ~ 2 Annhilation Barges.

Admittedly I only own 1 AB so that in part is why ive seen lack luster results, 2 ABs give pretty decent results consistently but cut that in half and its like 'jeez this thing doesnt do anything' which has been my experience every time i run it and even then i keep putting it into my lists hoping that it'll change my mind through further play testing.

In any case I think my goal here has been solidified in dimissing the claims that the monolith is so terrible by comparison the barges which is one of the things that was pissing me off. And through this discussion I believe its been proven that at the very least they are interchangeable.

And the answer shoudlnt always be 'toss in some ABs!' nor 'get rid of that monolith and toss in some ABs!'

Looks about right. The only reason to take a Monolith in this edition is if you have some very strong infantry units that could benefit heavily from the portal. And if you are doing that, then you should probably be taking several.

Losing S9 and the AP1 hit nerfed it's AV firepower substantially, while the loss of Living Metal made it meltabait. It really should have been another 20-30 points cheaper. What you are getting is a basic Leman Russ with better side armor and no chance of ever getting a cover save. And shorter range. You *have* to leverage the portal to make it worthwhile over the other HS slots.

The Grog wrote:Looks about right. The only reason to take a Monolith in this edition is if you have some very strong infantry units that could benefit heavily from the portal. And if you are doing that, then you should probably be taking several.

Losing S9 and the AP1 hit nerfed it's AV firepower substantially, while the loss of Living Metal made it meltabait. It really should have been another 20-30 points cheaper. What you are getting is a basic Leman Russ with better side armor and no chance of ever getting a cover save. And shorter range. You *have* to leverage the portal to make it worthwhile over the other HS slots.

I agree with all that, thats why i mention the portals uses.

However I do think that the monolith has a place on any list since you can teleport any necron unit thats not a vehicle through. Unless you are using VoD Night Scythes en masse or something other you'll find that portal to be extremely useful specially if you are running a c'tan which is on the other side of the table.

I think the 200 pts is worth it, it can kill stuff and synergizes with the rest of the army thanks to the portal always being an option for as long as it's alive.

Akaiyou wrote:I concede that the ABs together are much better than i originally gave them credit for but i just think the monolith has the edge in versatility where as in kill power they seem to be more evenly split into one being good against one thing and the other being good against another thing wether infantry or tanks.

So how about we all agree that 1 Monolith ~ 2 Annhilation Barges.

Admittedly I only own 1 AB so that in part is why ive seen lack luster results, 2 ABs give pretty decent results consistently but cut that in half and its like 'jeez this thing doesnt do anything' which has been my experience every time i run it and even then i keep putting it into my lists hoping that it'll change my mind through further play testing.

In any case I think my goal here has been solidified in dimissing the claims that the monolith is so terrible by comparison the barges which is one of the things that was pissing me off. And through this discussion I believe its been proven that at the very least they are interchangeable.

And the answer shoudlnt always be 'toss in some ABs!' nor 'get rid of that monolith and toss in some ABs!'

/agree. I think the mathhammer bears out that the firepower two ABs generate puts them on par if not ahead of a Monolith. However, Monoliths compensate with better survivability against non-melta weapons and some of their other tricks. I still think ABs will fit in better in most Necron lists, but you can still build a solid Necron army utilizing Monoliths... you just have to design it specifically to use the tricks the Monolith brings to the table.

I agree to the extent that I don't think monos fall into to the "horrible - do not take" catagory where pyrovores and sky-slashers reside. Really nothing in the Cron dex does. There are just somethings that are more challenging to build lists around than others. ABs are much easier to squeeze into most lists, partially due to points costs. They do need to be used en masse for full effect though. You also need to use more than one mono, but at over double the points cost, they are much harder to just shoehorn into a list and make work.

I just wish that units teleporting through the mono could assault (even with a caveat that they could only do so if the monolith hadn't moved before the teleport). That right there would make it well worth it.

That being said, you can still teleport shooty units through it, or move it up a flank and pull a scoring unit through it to grab an objective. Or other shenanigans.

Mannahnin wrote:I just wish that units teleporting through the mono could assault (even with a caveat that they could only do so if the monolith hadn't moved before the teleport). That right there would make it well worth it.

Amen! It would actually make Lychguard and Flayed Ones legitimate assault threats!