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Seriously all this mathammer is makes me lol...Do realize that beyond stats there is the hidden tactical element of taking a unit and some of you guys have mentioned it. 2 weeks ago I just faced 3 Monoliths and the first thing I asked was range. 24" though armor 14 makes a huge difference in todays meta. Imagine how many armies have 48" range guns then a bucketful of Melta these days. You can argue that you can compensate with nightfighting and all that jazz which brings me to my point. Doing a straight up comparison of A unit vs B unit who fulfill different roles is like apples to oranges. The tactical value of a unit depends on what It provide to the rest of list which is specially true of any Xenos army. Crons are not a Imperialist army that relies on resiliency and wars of attrition to win. By saying 1 Monolith is better than 2 Barges then you might follow the logic that if 1 is good then 2 is better then maybe 3 is best. Now if you field 3 Monoliths, do you see the disadvantages of it as well? If you were to mix and match is there even point to this debate?

Maybe it's just my army but I faced 3 Monoliths 2 weeks back I think and mind you we had Nightfighting turn 1. I fired a Ravager and 1 Raider, poof went Monlith 1, fired my second Ravager, stunned the middle one. Turn 2 all 3 Monoliths were down without even stunning or wrecking any of my vehicles. Tactical stuff like the gate? Yes he ported his Warriors from the other end of the board on his 2nd turn. Shook one Raider. On my turn I wiped that unit with 4 Venoms without the passengers even firing. Had they been Annihilation Barges it could have been a different story. Now I suppose you want to justify the debate on the grounds of taking the Monolith in an all-comers list. If you follow that train of thought, the best all comers list would be a list that will do 70% better against every opponent than a list that will do 90% better against every opponent except one where it will win 30% of the time. Let skill compensate for the decrease in stat efficiency. Different strokes for different folks.

Even w/ 3 barges vs 3 monoliths, if i lose 3x barges in the first round due to amazing luck on my opponents turn, it stung less to lose 270 points vs 600 points of 3x monoliths which in turn would have done the same thing as the barges - attract a lot of heavy fire on turn 1 -2.

Has anyone mentioned that the annihilation barges are dirt cheap and allow you to fill the Heavy support slots without sacrificing the ability to take or buff up other quality units in your army? To me that is a significant bonus.

Akaiyou wrote:
BS 4 means you'll have to roll an 8 on 2D6 to not hit. Statistically 7 is the most commonly rolled number on 2D6. thus you have better than 50% chance to hit as I pointed out it should be something like 55% chance to hit or something i know i've seen the math hammer done on blasts vs vehicles before.

All of you that are trying to make it seem like the monolith is terrible are either not using the proper chance to hit or the proper chance to penetrate...how convenient.

What the hell are you shooting at that is 8" wide? What the hell can you hit if you scatter 4 inches? Are you shooting at a damn titan? Are you forgetting you only get half strength if the center of the template doesnt land on target with the vehicle? You wont even hit a land raider in the long direction scoring an 8 for scatter!

When i started my chaos marines i bought vindicators for them, which i quickly traded. Scatter destroys the anti tank usefulness of blast weapons. I own a monolith, and it quite frankyl has been stripped of the things that made it great, specifically the removal of units from close combat and the reroll of WBB. I also play tested the doomsday ark, and couldnt hit anything with it, ever. i killed more with the flayer arrays after an entire army was on top of the damn things(i play tested 3, between the three i killed one paladin).

I am not saying it is a bad unit, i am just saying its not that good either. A strength 8 template against vehicles, meh, i will pass. I would rather take 5 crypteks of desctruction and take the 5 str 8 ap 2 shots which is probably what you will average in hits when you actually manage to hit against infantry with a particle whip anyways, plus now you get 5 shots straight up against a tank at the same strength, minus the scatter, for 25 points less. Then you dont take up any heavy slots and can put in 3 annihilation barges to go with the crypteks.

Monolith isnt worth its points, unless you get crazy lucky with it, just like a SAG big mek, its for fun, not for competitive.

Ichiyo1821 wrote:Seriously all this mathammer is makes me lol...Do realize that beyond stats there is the hidden tactical element of taking a unit and some of you guys have mentioned it. 2 weeks ago I just faced 3 Monoliths and the first thing I asked was range. 24" though armor 14 makes a huge difference in todays meta. Imagine how many armies have 48" range guns then a bucketful of Melta these days. You can argue that you can compensate with nightfighting and all that jazz which brings me to my point. Doing a straight up comparison of A unit vs B unit who fulfill different roles is like apples to oranges. The tactical value of a unit depends on what It provide to the rest of list which is specially true of any Xenos army. Crons are not a Imperialist army that relies on resiliency and wars of attrition to win. By saying 1 Monolith is better than 2 Barges then you might follow the logic that if 1 is good then 2 is better then maybe 3 is best. Now if you field 3 Monoliths, do you see the disadvantages of it as well? If you were to mix and match is there even point to this debate?

Maybe it's just my army but I faced 3 Monoliths 2 weeks back I think and mind you we had Nightfighting turn 1. I fired a Ravager and 1 Raider, poof went Monlith 1, fired my second Ravager, stunned the middle one. Turn 2 all 3 Monoliths were down without even stunning or wrecking any of my vehicles. Tactical stuff like the gate? Yes he ported his Warriors from the other end of the board on his 2nd turn. Shook one Raider. On my turn I wiped that unit with 4 Venoms without the passengers even firing. Had they been Annihilation Barges it could have been a different story. Now I suppose you want to justify the debate on the grounds of taking the Monolith in an all-comers list. If you follow that train of thought, the best all comers list would be a list that will do 70% better against every opponent than a list that will do 90% better against every opponent except one where it will win 30% of the time. Let skill compensate for the decrease in stat efficiency. Different strokes for different folks.

Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Monoliths get owned by armies packing heavy long range lance weapons which you obviously have. You are comparing it based on the worst possible scenario, how can you possibly determine its worth from that? On the flip side I could just say 'hey i took 3 monoliths and did EXTREMELY well against an army that had NO LANCE or MELTA weapons, the whole game i just ran my monoilths infront blasting everything to pieces and my opponent just coudl not do anything about it'

Which I actually HAVE done, versus Orks and other armies that aren't all ortiented towards massing lance/melta spam.

Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Your venom spam army isn't infallible too it has poor matchus versus Kan Wall Orks, IG, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and certain GK builds. Just saying...you can't base everything off one scenario...and besides 3 monoliths is simply overkill, just because a unit is good doesnt mean it should be over spammed. The C'tan are good units doesnt mean I want to take 3 of them, nor would I take 3 land raiders in any marine army thats 750 pts down the drain. Doesn't mean that 1 single land raider bringing in your deathstar is suddenly a terrible choice

There IS such a thing as over-reaching. Your opponent clearly over-reached and paid dearly for it. Do play against him again without all that lance weaponry and let us know how it goes...




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Cryage wrote:Even w/ 3 barges vs 3 monoliths, if i lose 3x barges in the first round due to amazing luck on my opponents turn, it stung less to lose 270 points vs 600 points of 3x monoliths which in turn would have done the same thing as the barges - attract a lot of heavy fire on turn 1 -2.

Absolutely correct, but against most AT weapons the monolith will survive a tad longer than the ABs thats included in the cost you pay.

We can go out and buy shoes, you buy the cheap brand, i buy the standard more expensive brand. My shoes wear out from heavy use the same as yours, but mine are made of sturdier materials so they last a bit longer, don't mean I shouldn't pay extra for that.

Yes it hurts when you lose those expensive units early on in poor match ups. But its not as if the monolith is the only expensive unit ever made that had this problem. Hell I pay 280 points for a swarmlord who's utility varies...since the opponent can simply never engage him in combat, and i have to pay for some guards for him otherwise he's a giant walking target that goes down as easy as a 200 pt tyrant, which go down as easy as 4 marines...

Doesn't mean the swarmlord is terrible. In fact he's one of the best units in the nid codex mostly due to the 'other' stuff he can do when he's not engaged.


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Dave-c wrote:Has anyone mentioned that the annihilation barges are dirt cheap and allow you to fill the Heavy support slots without sacrificing the ability to take or buff up other quality units in your army? To me that is a significant bonus.

Akaiyou wrote:
BS 4 means you'll have to roll an 8 on 2D6 to not hit. Statistically 7 is the most commonly rolled number on 2D6. thus you have better than 50% chance to hit as I pointed out it should be something like 55% chance to hit or something i know i've seen the math hammer done on blasts vs vehicles before.

All of you that are trying to make it seem like the monolith is terrible are either not using the proper chance to hit or the proper chance to penetrate...how convenient.

What the hell are you shooting at that is 8" wide? What the hell can you hit if you scatter 4 inches? Are you shooting at a damn titan? Are you forgetting you only get half strength if the center of the template doesnt land on target with the vehicle? You wont even hit a land raider in the long direction scoring an 8 for scatter!

When i started my chaos marines i bought vindicators for them, which i quickly traded. Scatter destroys the anti tank usefulness of blast weapons. I own a monolith, and it quite frankyl has been stripped of the things that made it great, specifically the removal of units from close combat and the reroll of WBB. I also play tested the doomsday ark, and couldnt hit anything with it, ever. i killed more with the flayer arrays after an entire army was on top of the damn things(i play tested 3, between the three i killed one paladin).

I am not saying it is a bad unit, i am just saying its not that good either. A strength 8 template against vehicles, meh, i will pass. I would rather take 5 crypteks of desctruction and take the 5 str 8 ap 2 shots which is probably what you will average in hits when you actually manage to hit against infantry with a particle whip anyways, plus now you get 5 shots straight up against a tank at the same strength, minus the scatter, for 25 points less. Then you dont take up any heavy slots and can put in 3 annihilation barges to go with the crypteks.

Monolith isnt worth its points, unless you get crazy lucky with it, just like a SAG big mek, its for fun, not for competitive.

You may not yet be aware, but in 5th edition rules we substract BS from the scatter roll. So monolith being bS 4 would make an 8" scatter actually become 4". 3" scatter is the maximum on all vehicles to stay on target on the largets of them, so at times scattering 7" minus the BS 4 will still land you a hit. Rolling an 8" scatter however will always be a miss

Perhaps you should get back those vindicators you gave away apparently you were not aware that you can substract your ballistic skill, they are not as terrible as you assume they are. In fact MANY great strategies use them, namely lash of submission lists make heavy use of those demolisher cannons.

Don't worry i ask about stuff here all day that I am unsure about, welcome to dakka. Learn something new every day.

Another point against the monolith is the horrible mounting of the gauss flux arcs: you will *never* get to fire them all, at best if the unit is a bit of a U shape or really big you can fire three, but normally only two.

Not to mention: the portal of exile really is garbage. The only time an enemy unit will get that close to a 'Lith is when they want to assault it, and if they want to assault it they'll generally have meltabombs/S10powerfists/be a monstrous creature. And yes, if a Trygon charges the 'Lith it dies in one round...

Soem of us can't afford to buy 3 ABs so i for one will field a single AB in smaller games and probably back it up with a 'lith in larger games.

yes the monoloth has been nerfed....but it is still an AV14 brick that can teleport a unit from ANYWHERE on the table. it is a mobile deployment zone and that alone give the necron army a level of mobility that not many armies have. you see that squad of warriors way over there that you though was doing nothign? POP! Now they're steppign out of that mopnolith (ideally with a phaeron) and unloading on you.

i will be taking a monolith in the majority of my lists if i can fit it in. yes the gunsd aren't great, yes you cant fire everythgin at once. It is stilla good vehicle with a wealth of options to it. i think that now it is more of a support vehicle rather than the be-all and end-all everything killer it used to be.

Akaiyou wrote:

You may not yet be aware, but in 5th edition rules we substract BS from the scatter roll. So monolith being bS 4 would make an 8" scatter actually become 4". 3" scatter is the maximum on all vehicles to stay on target on the largets of them, so at times scattering 7" minus the BS 4 will still land you a hit. Rolling an 8" scatter however will always be a miss

Perhaps you should get back those vindicators you gave away apparently you were not aware that you can substract your ballistic skill, they are not as terrible as you assume they are. In fact MANY great strategies use them, namely lash of submission lists make heavy use of those demolisher cannons.

Don't worry i ask about stuff here all day that I am unsure about, welcome to dakka. Learn something new every day.

I am quite aware that the BS is taken from the scatter, what you may not be aware of is that if you place the template directly in the center of a vehicle, watch it scatter 4", I guaruntee you wont hit that vehicle, in any direction, unless it is a necron ark and you scatter along the length. In order to hit with a 4" scatter the vehicle needs to b e 8" wide.

Check your math again, and reply once you have done that.

Dave-c wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:

You may not yet be aware, but in 5th edition rules we substract BS from the scatter roll. So monolith being bS 4 would make an 8" scatter actually become 4". 3" scatter is the maximum on all vehicles to stay on target on the largets of them, so at times scattering 7" minus the BS 4 will still land you a hit. Rolling an 8" scatter however will always be a miss

Perhaps you should get back those vindicators you gave away apparently you were not aware that you can substract your ballistic skill, they are not as terrible as you assume they are. In fact MANY great strategies use them, namely lash of submission lists make heavy use of those demolisher cannons.

Don't worry i ask about stuff here all day that I am unsure about, welcome to dakka. Learn something new every day.

I am quite aware that the BS is taken from the scatter, what you may not be aware of is that if you place the template directly in the center of a vehicle, watch it scatter 4", I guaruntee you wont hit that vehicle, in any direction, unless it is a necron ark and you scatter along the length. In order to hit with a 4" scatter the vehicle needs to b e 8" wide.

Check your math again, and reply once you have done that.

I don't need to check my math, you simply are not reading my post properly.

I highly recommend you re-read

Dave-c wrote:

I am quite aware that the BS is taken from the scatter, what you may not be aware of is that if you place the template directly in the center of a vehicle, watch it scatter 4", I guaruntee you wont hit that vehicle, in any direction, unless it is a necron ark and you scatter along the length. In order to hit with a 4" scatter the vehicle needs to b e 8" wide.

Check your math again, and reply once you have done that.

He said that, if you re-read his posts. 8 was the score he mentioned for a guaranteed MISS. One a 7, you might hit or might miss, depending on the vehicle and the direction of the scatter.

Warboss Gutrip wrote:Another point against the monolith is the horrible mounting of the gauss flux arcs: you will *never* get to fire them all, at best if the unit is a bit of a U shape or really big you can fire three, but normally only two.

Not to mention: the portal of exile really is garbage. The only time an enemy unit will get that close to a 'Lith is when they want to assault it, and if they want to assault it they'll generally have meltabombs/S10powerfists/be a monstrous creature. And yes, if a Trygon charges the 'Lith it dies in one round...

You can fire them independently of each other and at different units. Its actually quite easy to engage 3 of them by just pointing one of the Liths corners at the heart or your enemy formation.

Akaiyou wrote:
Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Monoliths get owned by armies packing heavy long range lance weapons which you obviously have. You are comparing it based on the worst possible scenario, how can you possibly determine its worth from that? On the flip side I could just say 'hey i took 3 monoliths and did EXTREMELY well against an army that had NO LANCE or MELTA weapons, the whole game i just ran my monoilths infront blasting everything to pieces and my opponent just coudl not do anything about it'

Which I actually HAVE done, versus Orks and other armies that aren't all ortiented towards massing lance/melta spam.

Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Your venom spam army isn't infallible too it has poor matchus versus Kan Wall Orks, IG, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and certain GK builds. Just saying...you can't base everything off one scenario...and besides 3 monoliths is simply overkill, just because a unit is good doesnt mean it should be over spammed. The C'tan are good units doesnt mean I want to take 3 of them, nor would I take 3 land raiders in any marine army thats 750 pts down the drain. Doesn't mean that 1 single land raider bringing in your deathstar is suddenly a terrible choice

There IS such a thing as over-reaching. Your opponent clearly over-reached and paid dearly for it. Do play against him again without all that lance weaponry and let us know how it goes...

First I only have 4 Venoms in that list and I face Kan Wall, Wolves and and GK regularly. Secondly, what else can DE use for AT other than Lances and Haywire that are cost effective?? Look across the board and see which armies don't have access to AV 14 tank busters. The only army I can think off right of the back are Orks. Other than that most armies have the tools to deal with AV14. Now about over reaching, by delivering a blanket statement that a Monolith is greater than 2 AB, you are indirectly saying that if a player opting for multiple AB, he is already gimping himself. Now if you also think that using 3 Monoliths is over reaching then what is the point of the entire post if in the end you are also indicating that Necrons should have a varied HS slot selection like 1 Monlith and 2 Barges or 1 Monolith + Spiders. Seriously...Kinda pointless comparing Apples and Oranges if in the end they are both going into the damn salad anyway.

Ichiyo1821 wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:
Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Monoliths get owned by armies packing heavy long range lance weapons which you obviously have. You are comparing it based on the worst possible scenario, how can you possibly determine its worth from that? On the flip side I could just say 'hey i took 3 monoliths and did EXTREMELY well against an army that had NO LANCE or MELTA weapons, the whole game i just ran my monoilths infront blasting everything to pieces and my opponent just coudl not do anything about it'

Which I actually HAVE done, versus Orks and other armies that aren't all ortiented towards massing lance/melta spam.

Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Your venom spam army isn't infallible too it has poor matchus versus Kan Wall Orks, IG, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and certain GK builds. Just saying...you can't base everything off one scenario...and besides 3 monoliths is simply overkill, just because a unit is good doesnt mean it should be over spammed. The C'tan are good units doesnt mean I want to take 3 of them, nor would I take 3 land raiders in any marine army thats 750 pts down the drain. Doesn't mean that 1 single land raider bringing in your deathstar is suddenly a terrible choice

There IS such a thing as over-reaching. Your opponent clearly over-reached and paid dearly for it. Do play against him again without all that lance weaponry and let us know how it goes...

First I only have 4 Venoms in that list and I face Kan Wall, Wolves and and GK regularly. Secondly, what else can DE use for AT other than Lances and Haywire that are cost effective?? Look across the board and see which armies don't have access to AV 14 tank busters. The only army I can think off right of the back are Orks. Other than that most armies have the tools to deal with AV14. Now about over reaching, by delivering a blanket statement that a Monolith is greater than 2 AB, you are indirectly saying that if a player opting for multiple AB, he is already gimping himself. Now if you also think that using 3 Monoliths is over reaching then what is the point of the entire post if in the end you are also indicating that Necrons should have a varied HS slot selection like 1 Monlith and 2 Barges or 1 Monolith + Spiders. Seriously...Kinda pointless comparing Apples and Oranges if in the end they are both going into the damn salad anyway.

Tankhammers and power klaws would like a word with you.
And zzap guns...but those are crap anyway.

Problem with hammers and klaws is that they're melee-only. Until we hit charge range, greenskins can't do jack against AV 14.

I think a good point can be made that most competitive armies out there will have the tools to deal with Monoliths. Obviously DE have the easiest time with the amount of Lances they can field, though IG are not far behind with the number of lascannons, melta and Manticore shots they can get. Other armies may not be able to spam these as much, but the tools are there and a decent all-comers list should have enough for the task. It's one of the reasons I prefer to not run big expensive units in my lists.


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BeRzErKeR wrote:Problem with hammers and klaws is that they're melee-only. Until we hit charge range, greenskins can't do jack against AV 14.

And with the 24" range and a 6" move how many turns away is that Monolith? It may kill a ton of Orks but it probably won't deal with the PK in time before it smacks the big M down.

Not every list out there is a tournament list.

And yes even if both go in the damn salad, the thread is to dismiss this claim that someone should ALWAYS take Annihilation Barges, which if you look around is what the internet is spouting lately. "OMG add ABs to the list' in just about every list...jeez there's other good stuff to recommend people.

Specially wanted to address this anti-monolith sentiment, clearly the monolith lost some of its perks but it gain many others as well its not a one-sided nerf and I much rather have THIS new monolith to the previous edition one.

Teleporting a unit from anywhere on the board and killing stuff with an indestructible portal of exile is just too sweet and worth losing the pseudo invulnerability to an extra D6 in a system where vehicles are already king and AV14 is already at it's pinnacle.

I think people recommend annihilation barges because they are THAT good. It's like GK's, purifiers are certainly their books poster child and preferred unit, AB's are probably one of Necrons best units in the codex now.

Akaiyou wrote:Not every list out there is a tournament list.

And yes even if both go in the damn salad, the thread is to dismiss this claim that someone should ALWAYS take Annihilation Barges, which if you look around is what the internet is spouting lately. "OMG add ABs to the list' in just about every list...jeez there's other good stuff to recommend people.

Specially wanted to address this anti-monolith sentiment, clearly the monolith lost some of its perks but it gain many others as well its not a one-sided nerf and I much rather have THIS new monolith to the previous edition one.

Teleporting a unit from anywhere on the board and killing stuff with an indestructible portal of exile is just too sweet and worth losing the pseudo invulnerability to an extra D6 in a system where vehicles are already king and AV14 is already at it's pinnacle.

I recommend Annihilation Barges to a lot of people because dollar-wise they are the best deal in all of 40k. You get to pick between the Command Barge and the Annihilation Barge, of which the model comes almost pre-pinned to make swapping easier, and it includes a $19.00 Overlord in the box. Every Necron player that is just starting out should buy two of these, and every Necron player that no longer has any HQs as per the new codex should buy two barges as well, for the exact same reasons.

I don't want to come off as being anti-Monolith, because I'm really not. But I do think you're crazy for preferring the new Monolith over the old rules. The old Living Metal rule was one of the strongest abilities in the game, and now it's not even as good as Power of the Machine Spirit, IMO. And my favourite tactic used to be deep striking two monoliths into the dead center of my opponent's army, forcing his army to make way for the Monoliths, and then firing the Flux Arcs that would hit everything nearby. That can't happen again because the Monoliths will just mishap now.

I personally think that most good lists will have a mix.

i am not a competative player and dont ever intedn to go to a tourney. But i still love the monolith, it still has its nice abilities (shooting from deep strike, teleporting, "eating" high value models at close range, targetting multiple units) so can't just be dismissed.

in a situation where the enenmy is closing in to CC range with multiple units i would be more thankful for a 'lith than an AB.....but i would rather have both to increase the options i have.

My tactic (once i have chance to actually play a game with my new necrons) will be to try a deep striek the lith towards the other end of the table. it will only mishpap if you land on impassable terrain or other models, normal terrain just runs a slight risk of immobilising, but with a max scatter of 12" and an all-round range of 24" the monolith can safely DS and still delivery a solid round of 2 o shooting as well as redeploying big units right into the enemy flank.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Ichiyo1821 wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:
Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Monoliths get owned by armies packing heavy long range lance weapons which you obviously have. You are comparing it based on the worst possible scenario, how can you possibly determine its worth from that? On the flip side I could just say 'hey i took 3 monoliths and did EXTREMELY well against an army that had NO LANCE or MELTA weapons, the whole game i just ran my monoilths infront blasting everything to pieces and my opponent just coudl not do anything about it'

Which I actually HAVE done, versus Orks and other armies that aren't all ortiented towards massing lance/melta spam.

Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Your venom spam army isn't infallible too it has poor matchus versus Kan Wall Orks, IG, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and certain GK builds. Just saying...you can't base everything off one scenario...and besides 3 monoliths is simply overkill, just because a unit is good doesnt mean it should be over spammed. The C'tan are good units doesnt mean I want to take 3 of them, nor would I take 3 land raiders in any marine army thats 750 pts down the drain. Doesn't mean that 1 single land raider bringing in your deathstar is suddenly a terrible choice

There IS such a thing as over-reaching. Your opponent clearly over-reached and paid dearly for it. Do play against him again without all that lance weaponry and let us know how it goes...

First I only have 4 Venoms in that list and I face Kan Wall, Wolves and and GK regularly. Secondly, what else can DE use for AT other than Lances and Haywire that are cost effective?? Look across the board and see which armies don't have access to AV 14 tank busters. The only army I can think off right of the back are Orks. Other than that most armies have the tools to deal with AV14. Now about over reaching, by delivering a blanket statement that a Monolith is greater than 2 AB, you are indirectly saying that if a player opting for multiple AB, he is already gimping himself. Now if you also think that using 3 Monoliths is over reaching then what is the point of the entire post if in the end you are also indicating that Necrons should have a varied HS slot selection like 1 Monlith and 2 Barges or 1 Monolith + Spiders. Seriously...Kinda pointless comparing Apples and Oranges if in the end they are both going into the damn salad anyway.

Was referring to guns only...

Tankhammers and power klaws would like a word with you.
And zzap guns...but those are crap anyway.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akaiyou wrote:Not every list out there is a tournament list.

And yes even if both go in the damn salad, the thread is to dismiss this claim that someone should ALWAYS take Annihilation Barges, which if you look around is what the internet is spouting lately. "OMG add ABs to the list' in just about every list...jeez there's other good stuff to recommend people.

Specially wanted to address this anti-monolith sentiment, clearly the monolith lost some of its perks but it gain many others as well its not a one-sided nerf and I much rather have THIS new monolith to the previous edition one.

Teleporting a unit from anywhere on the board and killing stuff with an indestructible portal of exile is just too sweet and worth losing the pseudo invulnerability to an extra D6 in a system where vehicles are already king and AV14 is already at it's pinnacle.

Well netlists are just what they are. Sooner or later after you get the mechanics of the game it's actually better to veer off netlists and use mix and match units. Any monkey can spam one model/ unit till the cows come home but if he faces an army that deals with that unit with ease then his entire army can crumble. I just see no use in posting that a Monolith is greater than 2 ABs when one should be taking both in the first place. Most Xenos armies have great selections all over their codex that helps with the synergy matrix of Xenos fighting. People advocating 3 AB are probably just marine players who switched to Necrons. The same people who use Razorback spams, Venomspams and Psyflemen spams.

I can definately see the appeal in fielding 1 monlith and 2 ABs. in that case the amount of firepower you could churn out would be very impressive.

Well netlists are just what they are. Sooner or later after you get the mechanics of the game it's actually better to veer off netlists and use mix and match units. Any monkey can spam one model/ unit till the cows come home but if he faces an army that deals with that unit with ease then his entire army can crumble. I just see no use in posting that a Monolith is greater than 2 ABs when one should be taking both in the first place. Most Xenos armies have great selections all over their codex that helps with the synergy matrix of Xenos fighting. People advocating 3 AB are probably just marine players who switched to Necrons. The same people who use Razorback spams, Venomspams and Psyflemen spams.

It's possible that people spam units for redundancy, and because They Work. I take 3 Annihilation barges, because at 90 points a pop, it allows me to spend a lot more points elsewhere. They put out an amazing amount of firepower, and I like having them in my Army. Saying that people only do that "Because they probably played Marines" Is stupidly ignorant, and people would probably appreciate it if you didn't paint them in broad strokes like that.

I agree that at 90 points an AB is an absolute steal and i will pretty much always include mine in any list.

i suppose it depends on what army you are facing. Against hordes for exaple i would rather have the high umber of S5 hits from an AB rather than a couple of large blasts that will scatter and likely miss.

Gauss gives you a different option in the chance to glance vehicles on a 6.

Again, i woudln't want to rely on one or the other. i think 1 'Lith and 2 ABs woudl be the best combo.

Praxiss wrote:I agree that at 90 points an AB is an absolute steal and i will pretty much always include mine in any list.

i suppose it depends on what army you are facing. Against hordes for exaple i woudl rather have the high umber of S5 hits from an AB rather than a couple of large blasts that will scatter and likely miss.

For IG i woudl prefer to have an element of gauss fire in there to negate armour saves a bit.

Well, I take Gauss Cannons as my underslung weapon on my CCBs and AB's. Granted, I'd much rather fire those at infantry. AB are much better at tank suppressing, than tank destroying though. All you need sometimes, is that shaken/stunned result anyhow.

Sasori wrote:

Well netlists are just what they are. Sooner or later after you get the mechanics of the game it's actually better to veer off netlists and use mix and match units. Any monkey can spam one model/ unit till the cows come home but if he faces an army that deals with that unit with ease then his entire army can crumble. I just see no use in posting that a Monolith is greater than 2 ABs when one should be taking both in the first place. Most Xenos armies have great selections all over their codex that helps with the synergy matrix of Xenos fighting. People advocating 3 AB are probably just marine players who switched to Necrons. The same people who use Razorback spams, Venomspams and Psyflemen spams.

It's possible that people spam units for redundancy, and because They Work. I take 3 Annihilation barges, because at 90 points a pop, it allows me to spend a lot more points elsewhere. They put out an amazing amount of firepower, and I like having them in my Army. Saying that people only do that "Because they probably played Marines" Is stupidly ignorant, and people would probably appreciate it if you didn't paint them in broad strokes like that.

.

That is not being stupidly ignorant just incase you haven't noticed it yet. Its a fact that most of the new army codexes spam units but I am generalizing that because no matter what you say the ratio of Marine Players vs non Marines are what? 5:1? Perhaps even more and truth of the matter is when these same players shift armies they carry the same list making ideas and concepts. I admit that I use 3 Ravagers and 3 units of Trueborn but I don't do Venom spam nor full min max Warrios myself. There are just some codexes where you have to spam to optimze but then there are codexes that have the versatility to variate. I am all for redundancy but I am also a believer that if you can, it's better to have choices and tools everything. The Imp Guard I am making won't spam Veterans and Chimeras but will use everything the Codex has to offer. Necrons have good units across the Codex for them to spam stuff. Don't be too defensive unless ofcourse you're playing Razorback + 5 man assault squad minimum spam BA or the likes

Sorry I agree with Sasori here. 90pts for a heavy support choice that has that much firepower is too good a deal to pass up. Not only is it cheap and reasonably survivable but as Sasori said it frees up points in other slots and they work.

Primarily a nid player here, but I guess that's ok since I do have a small collection of GK's.

Ichiyo1821 wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Well netlists are just what they are. Sooner or later after you get the mechanics of the game it's actually better to veer off netlists and use mix and match units. Any monkey can spam one model/ unit till the cows come home but if he faces an army that deals with that unit with ease then his entire army can crumble. I just see no use in posting that a Monolith is greater than 2 ABs when one should be taking both in the first place. Most Xenos armies have great selections all over their codex that helps with the synergy matrix of Xenos fighting. People advocating 3 AB are probably just marine players who switched to Necrons. The same people who use Razorback spams, Venomspams and Psyflemen spams.

It's possible that people spam units for redundancy, and because They Work. I take 3 Annihilation barges, because at 90 points a pop, it allows me to spend a lot more points elsewhere. They put out an amazing amount of firepower, and I like having them in my Army. Saying that people only do that "Because they probably played Marines" Is stupidly ignorant, and people would probably appreciate it if you didn't paint them in broad strokes like that.

.

That is not being stupidly ignorant just incase you haven't noticed it yet. Its a fact that most of the new army codexes spam units but I am generalizing that because no matter what you say the ratio of Marine Players vs non Marines are what? 5:1? Perhaps even more and truth of the matter is when these same players shift armies they carry the same list making ideas and concepts. I admit that I use 3 Ravagers and 3 units of Trueborn but I don't do Venom spam nor full min max Warrios myself. There are just some codexes where you have to spam to optimze but then there are codexes that have the versatility to variate. I am all for redundancy but I am also a believer that if you can, it's better to have choices and tools everything. The Imp Guard I am making won't spam Veterans and Chimeras but will use everything the Codex has to offer. Necrons have good units across the Codex for them to spam stuff. Don't be too defensive unless ofcourse you're playing Razorback + 5 man assault squad minimum spam BA or the likes

It is ignorant, because people don't spam things because they are/were marine players, people spam things for redundancy and efficiency. So once again, it is ignorant to say "People advocating 3 AB are probably just marine Players who switched to Necrons." because this is simply not the case. 3 AB are just an extremely effective and cheap way to spend your points in the heavy support slot, and they are good.

By the way, as you can tell from my Sig, I don't play any Marine Armies. I do spam Hive Guard, Wave Serpents, and Firedragons though.

So, yes, I get a little defensive when someone who doesn't know they are talking about, lumps me as a "Likely Marine Player" (Which you implied as a derogatory term) Because I advocate a very cost effective heavy support load out.

delete

I happen to use Carnifexen in my Nid list. Dual devourers are still very good. Attach a Prime and see what they do. Let's not overreact either. The monolith clearly lost some of its appeal with the nerfs. It still has plenty of utility in the right list.

We should not be comparing Barges and Monoliths anyway. I could say why take a Barge when i can get a two MCs that spawn. Wow. Better than a Terv. Better than a Barge. No. Useful in the heavy slot? Yes.

I dont think Monoliths got even half the nerf the carnifex's did, so I thank the gods I can at least field my monoliths in some games and feel good about it. I just feel dirty putting down a carnifex though lol.

Last nights game, I killed a demon prince in 1 turn of shooting from an annihilation barge ... albeit I was very lucky, when I rolled to hit, i plunked down 4 6's and just grinned as i grabbed a handful of more dice to roll ... *hugs the tesla rule*

Also I shot 2 AB's at a squad of berzerkers that just disembarked from their rhino and it arc'd after killing 6 berzerkers against the side of their rhino and killed that as well.

Felt like a gangster

I've read through this entire thread, do I get a medal? *laughs*

Some points (which have been touched on already)

S8 Ordinance pens AV 12 20/36 times (56%).
S8 Ordinance pens AV 11 27/36 times (75%)

With 3 penetrating AP - hits, the chance of wrecking a vehicle is 42.1%

Oh ya, and 10 tesla shots hit 10 times.
4 Twin-Linked tesla shots hit 5.2 times with a respectably large standard deviation, such that results between 3-8 (inclusive) are all quite common. (I think that respecting the large standard deviation of Tesla weapons is what makes this a bit more difficult for math-novice mathhammer types to understand) Think of it this way, on a re-roll, you have a 1/6 chance to get 3 hits, but a 1/3 chance to re-miss. The math is actually quite complex, as the dice rolls are not quite independent events in the calculation anymore (because of the TL factor, you only get an opportunity for more 6's on a miss of the original dice)