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Hey all, I have a highly competitive game (with a highly competitive friend) in a couple weeks.

He has elected to play Chaos Daemons and I am playing GK.

Assume he can field everything in the Daemon codex and I have all the necessary GK models (we have both played/collected multiple armies for many years).

I am considering the following and would like thoughts/comments/criticism/etc...

Crowe (must use this model as I have already committed to it)

GK GM (stave, incinerator, rad/psykotroke/blind grenades)

7x paladins (including apothecary, banner, stave, 2 psilencers - all equipped uniquely for would allocation)

10 x interceptors (psybolt ammo) [can combat squad]
5x interceptors (psybolt ammo)

10 x strike squad (psybolt ammo) [can combat squad]
5 x strike squad (psybolt ammo)

5x purifiers in rhino (hammer, 2 halberds, 2 psycannons)
5x purifiers in rhino (hammer, 2 halberds, 2 psycannons)

Let me know all your thoughts. All legal tactics/builds are acceptable - he will be using the same against me.

I just picked up the GK army and haven't been able to play against the Daemons yet. While I know the Daemons codex, I haven't really thought about what mean/nasty surprises he is likely to employ against me. He usually plays SW and I usually play CSM so this game promises to be FUN as well as highly competitive.

What should I expect?

What should I change about my build?

Thanks All !

Lord Thanatos

Whatever you do, do not do the shunt-quake (shunt your interceptors and then cast warp quake) trick. It is a dick move and no fun at all for daemons because there's just nothing they can do about it.

Sent Crowe against a greater daemon that instant kill thing when he dies is pretty crazy.

As a daemon player I always cringe at large squads of terminators and paladins.

Without knowing what your opponent will be taking it is hard to say what you should look out for or what you should change.

If he goes first (most Daemons like to go second as it wastes a turn of opponent's shooting) the best that this GK army can do is move all three interceptors 12" as a scout move (since shunt cannot be a scout move, correct?) If GK GM rolls a 3 on the D3. This leaves the entire normal 12" deployment zone for the Daemons to arrive in (assuming all of the psychic powers are successful). Any failed psychic test leaves 1/6 of the remaining area for Daemons to arrive, as well.

Anyhow ... the main reason I selected interceptors was to deny charge distances to his daemons and be certain that I can concentrate my storm bolter fire. The paladins will be as close to the center of the board (or an tactically important objective) as possible to attempt to force him to charge that unit.

I guess I am really wondering if there is a particular Daemon unit or MC with a selection of gifts that will make mincemeat of my paladins and GK GM unit on the charge? Or, will that paladin unit be more like an invincible melee unit? I am worried about Khorne Daemons with the "blessing of the blood god." How many unit with this gift can be taken in a still competitive Daemon list?

Also, are soul grinders a "must-have" unit in most competitive Daemon lists? Do the best Daemon list take three soul grinders or none? That str 8 ap 3 pie plate is never appealing to MEQ.

I know of a Daemon player who always brings 3 units of 8 Khorne bloodcrushers. This seems to be a pretty strong core of Daemons. Should I expect this and plan accordingly, or is this a pretty rare Daemon army composition?

I guess I am really a bit uncertain as to how the best, most competitive, Daemon lists are usually created.

I like the suggestion of Crowe against Daemon MC. I will attempt to make that matchup happen.

Should I eliminate the paladins to use two squads of 10 terminators (also eliminating the 5 man GKSS?) This configuration will also make the soul grinders a lot less troublesome.

I also thought about eliminating the GK GM and a single paladin to add both a Librarian and a Tech marine. Both of these would join the paladins so that I still have use of the rad/psykotrope grenade combo, but would gain the Librarian power Dark Excommunication. Should I make certain to include the Librarian and his nice psychic powers?

Lord Thanatos

Personally I'd opt for draigo and paladins, 2 squads of 7, wound allocation business etc, in addition to purifiers. Reason being that paladins are a LOT more durable than purifiers, and should be able to take on anything if properly equipped. Put draigo+ paladins+purifer squad on one flank, paladins+crowe+purifier squad on the other flank, either way he is in trouble if he charges (which is what his army is all about!

2100 points? why not 2047 points! *laughs*

I didn't know 2100 was a thing.

Lord_Thanatos wrote:I guess I am really wondering if there is a particular Daemon unit or MC with a selection of gifts that will make mincemeat of my paladins and GK GM unit on the charge? Or, will that paladin unit be more like an invincible melee unit? I am worried about Khorne Daemons with the "blessing of the blood god." How many unit with this gift can be taken in a still competitive Daemon list?

Also, are soul grinders a "must-have" unit in most competitive Daemon lists? Do the best Daemon list take three soul grinders or none? That str 8 ap 3 pie plate is never appealing to MEQ.

I know of a Daemon player who always brings 3 units of 8 Khorne bloodcrushers. This seems to be a pretty strong core of Daemons. Should I expect this and plan accordingly, or is this a pretty rare Daemon army composition?

I guess I am really a bit uncertain as to how the best, most competitive, Daemon lists are usually created.

I like the suggestion of Crowe against Daemon MC. I will attempt to make that matchup happen.

Should I eliminate the paladins to use two squads of 10 terminators (also eliminating the 5 man GKSS?) This configuration will also make the soul grinders a lot less troublesome.

I also thought about eliminating the GK GM and a single paladin to add both a Librarian and a Tech marine. Both of these would join the paladins so that I still have use of the rad/psykotrope grenade combo, but would gain the Librarian power Dark Excommunication. Should I make certain to include the Librarian and his nice psychic powers?

Lord Thanatos

The most competitive Daemon list is generally known as "Fatecrusher." The specifics vary, but the core is Fateweaver and a bunch of Bloodcrushers re-rolling saves and crushing over everything. 3x8 crushers is too much, and the list you'll see will probably be a smaller amount, but with more MCs and maybe some Fiends of Slaanesh sprinkled in.

Soul Grinders? Competitive Daemon lists leave them out, Daemons can't achieve enough target saturation with vehicles to make Soul Grinders viable at high points levels.

Blessing of the Blood God is the GKs' biggest stumbling block against Daemons in CC. Bloodthirsters can take it, Skulltaker has it, Khorne DPs can take it, and Flesh Hounds have it. You might actually see some Flesh Hounds in your opponent's list if he knows he's fighting GK - they're not good all-comers units, but they are great against GKs in CC. The biggest threats will obviously be Bloodthirsters and Khorne DPs in CC, so you should prioritize these targets with your ranged attacks.

Paladins can actually do quite well against Daemons in CC, thanks to wound allocation, but an apothecary isn't really the best use of points, as most of what he has will be ignoring armor saves in CC anyways. If anything, I would find a way to bump the pallies up to 10 models and give them 4 psycannons.

I get that you're locked in to using Crowe, but the Purifier squads would add more to an MSU spam list than the list you're running. Most of the big threats to you in CC won't care too much about Cleansing Flame, so their primary advantage in CC is gone. I guess they're a (comparatively) cheap way to get 2 psycannons in a rhino.

Dark Excommunication would be an excellent addition against Daemons, as it removes the one threatening CC ability they have (Blessing of the Blood God). I would be more interested in a Dreadknight with personal teleporter than a LIbrarian, because unless the Librarian has a Stormraven for transport the Dreadknight will be more mobile, which is vital because everything you'll be chasing with Blessing of the Blood God is fast (wings or beasts). If you can fit a Dreadknight in, try to aim for a combined charge with it and another CC unit.

loreweaver wrote:2100 points? why not 2047 points! *laughs*

I didn't know 2100 was a thing.

We are actually playing @ 2,000 points (although we each have random "territories" in our league rules that can often result in a few more points available to one list or both - he could actually field between 2000 and 2100 points), but I didn't want to get bogged down in "lose 10 points here and 5 points here and add this or that." I am capable of making those type of army composition decisions. I wanted a kind of strategic or tactical discussion. Maybe 2100 points was an inexact method, but that was my goal.

The reply by Roboute was exactly what I was hoping for. He gave me some great information to think about. In fact, I intend to try to alter my army based upon some of his comments and see what I come up with. So I will be replying to his post a little bit later.

But, in the meantime, thanks for the gentle ribbing. : )

Lord Thanatos


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jy2 wrote:Whatever you do, do not do the shunt-quake (shunt your interceptors and then cast warp quake) trick. It is a dick move and no fun at all for daemons because there's just nothing they can do about it.

If my opponent goes first I don't even get to cast warp quake before the first half of his army arrives.

Assume my opponent goes first, but I have 1 - 3 scout moves. Can I make a scout move and cast Warp Quake at the beginning of that movement?

Lord Thanatos

A combo that I like to run against GK's is Pavine princes with breath of chaos accompanied by flamers. The pavine hits on a 2+ from the demon prince and will let him move your squad d6 inches. then down come the multiple breaths of chaos from both the prince and the flamers. Each teardrop template will wound any model on a 4+ and ignore armor saves. When units get clustered up due to the pavine it can really put the hurt on elite units.

ThatEdGuy wrote:A combo that I like to run against GK's is Pavine princes with breath of chaos accompanied by flamers. The pavine hits on a 2+ from the demon prince and will let him move your squad d6 inches. then down come the multiple breaths of chaos from both the prince and the flamers. Each teardrop template will wound any model on a 4+ and ignore armor saves. When units get clustered up due to the pavine it can really put the hurt on elite units.

I wouldn't count on seeing this combo. It's possible, but Flamers take up an Elites slot, need to land right on target, and are extremely fragile. If the Daemon player wants to ensure they arrive on target with an Icon, he'll need to bring them on in his second wave, which means you can Warp Quake your most valuable units and avoid it anyways. It's not a bad combo (it's a good one), but it requires more variables to align than simply plopping down a bunch of Bloodcrushers, which is seen as the most competitive way to go.

If you are both "super competitive" why do you counter pick? Why not run TAC lists?

JGrand wrote:If you are both "super competitive" why do you counter pick? Why not run TAC lists?

We do that often (run TAC lists). He and I each have plenty of tournament trophies. I believe he has won the adepticon team contest in Chicago a time or two... At least two players in our gaming group have won GT overall trophies. A TAC list is certainly not the defining characteristic of competitive players.

A TAC list does not increase or decrease the competitiveness of the gaming environment or army composition - simply a different set of parameters than what we have elected to do in our next contest together. You seem to believe that one type of game or gaming environment is better than another. I do not share this opinion. As long as all players understand the required parameters of the contest and have agreed to them, 40K can be a fun and challenging tabletop game in many different environments.

I had great fun playing in a "roleplaying" series of contests where we each had to follow the gamemasters directives (and the armies were rarely exactly balanced, but our victory objectives were distinct from each other) and played BFG, 40K, Kill Teams, and multi-player team contests at various times. Lots and lots of great fun! Not a better environment, simply different.

Lord Thanatos

P.S. Still contemplating changes to my list based upon the good input I have received in this thread. Stay tuned...

Highly competitive? 2100 points?

A TAC list does not increase or decrease the competitiveness of the gaming environment or army composition - simply a different set of parameters than what we have elected to do in our next contest together. You seem to believe that one type of game or gaming environment is better than another. I do not share this opinion. As long as all players understand the required parameters of the contest and have agreed to them, 40K can be a fun and challenging tabletop game in many different environments.

I guess I don't seem to understand this thread then. If you are going "super competitive" as GK versus Daemons and want to make the best anti Daemon list, then scouting Interceptors and Strike Squads is basically an insta win. If you are playing for narrative or role playing then take a fluffy or fun list.

Roboute wrote:The most competitive Daemon list is generally known as "Fatecrusher." The specifics vary, but the core is Fateweaver and a bunch of Bloodcrushers re-rolling saves and crushing over everything. 3x8 crushers is too much, and the list you'll see will probably be a smaller amount, but with more MCs and maybe some Fiends of Slaanesh sprinkled in.

Soul Grinders? Competitive Daemon lists leave them out, Daemons can't achieve enough target saturation with vehicles to make Soul Grinders viable at high points levels.

Blessing of the Blood God is the GKs' biggest stumbling block against Daemons in CC. Bloodthirsters can take it, Skulltaker has it, Khorne DPs can take it, and Flesh Hounds have it. You might actually see some Flesh Hounds in your opponent's list if he knows he's fighting GK - they're not good all-comers units, but they are great against GKs in CC. The biggest threats will obviously be Bloodthirsters and Khorne DPs in CC, so you should prioritize these targets with your ranged attacks.

Paladins can actually do quite well against Daemons in CC, thanks to wound allocation, but an apothecary isn't really the best use of points, as most of what he has will be ignoring armor saves in CC anyways. If anything, I would find a way to bump the pallies up to 10 models and give them 4 psycannons.

I get that you're locked in to using Crowe, but the Purifier squads would add more to an MSU spam list than the list you're running. Most of the big threats to you in CC won't care too much about Cleansing Flame, so their primary advantage in CC is gone. I guess they're a (comparatively) cheap way to get 2 psycannons in a rhino.

Dark Excommunication would be an excellent addition against Daemons, as it removes the one threatening CC ability they have (Blessing of the Blood God). I would be more interested in a Dreadknight with personal teleporter than a LIbrarian, because unless the Librarian has a Stormraven for transport the Dreadknight will be more mobile, which is vital because everything you'll be chasing with Blessing of the Blood God is fast (wings or beasts). If you can fit a Dreadknight in, try to aim for a combined charge with it and another CC unit.

OK...

Do you like these potential changes?

Castellan Crowe [I must use this model.]

GK GM w/ incinerator, warding stave, rad & psychotroke grenades

10x Paladins w/ 2 MC psycannons, 2 psilencers, warding stave, brotherhood banner and all 10 bear different equipment for wound allocation [can combat squad]

10x Interceptors w/ psybolt ammo [can combat squad]

10x GKSS w/ psybolt ammo [can combat squad]
10x GKSS w/ psybolt ammo [can combat squad]

Dreadknight w/ heavy psilencer, heavy incinerator and personal teleporter

The number of models are down from 51 to 43, although there are three additional paladins (2 wound models).
The GK GM could potentially make all models scoring (if roll 2 or better on a d3); or he can give scout to up to 3 units prior to breaking into combat squads.

Lord Thanatos



Automatically Appended Next Post:

JGrand wrote:

I guess I don't seem to understand this thread then. If you are going "super competitive" as GK versus Daemons and want to make the best anti Daemon list, then scouting Interceptors and Strike Squads is basically an insta win. If you are playing for narrative or role playing then take a fluffy or fun list.

Yes, the "shunt quake" list is very powerful against his Daemons. But I wanted to get a good idea of what I would most likely face from a competitive Daemon list. If he goes first he will have room to arrive both turns with his entire army while avoiding the warp quakes. Of course, this won't be optimal for him as he will have a long way to travel in the face of concentrated storm bolter fire, but it doesn't guarantee a loss for him either.

Roboute and others have given me a much better understanding of the competitive Daemon list than I had before I begun this thread (which was the point of starting this thread). I actually am quite pleased with some of the informative responses I have received.

Lord Thanatos

Lord_Thanatos wrote:OK...

Do you like these potential changes?

Castellan Crowe [I must use this model.]

GK GM w/ incinerator, warding stave, rad & psychotroke grenades

10x Paladins w/ 2 MC psycannons, 2 psilencers, warding stave, brotherhood banner and all 10 bear different equipment for wound allocation [can combat squad]

10x Interceptors w/ psybolt ammo [can combat squad]

10x GKSS w/ psybolt ammo [can combat squad]
10x GKSS w/ psybolt ammo [can combat squad]

Dreadknight w/ heavy psilencer, heavy incinerator and personal teleporter

The number of models are down from 51 to 43, although there are three additional paladins (2 wound models).
The GK GM could potentially make all models scoring (if roll 2 or better on a d3); or he can give scout to up to 3 units prior to breaking into combat squads.

Looking better. The GM is a little overcosted, though. Giving him an incinerator wastes his BS of 6, although at only 5 points it's a cheap way to cause wounds before an assault. Either way, you aren't really taking him for his ranged attacks. And the warding stave is expensive and not needed for the GM, when sticking with the sword still nets you a 3+ Inv in CC (4+ for Iron Halo, +1 for NFS).

I also hate seeing psilencers in a list, but that's just because it screams tailoring to me. Nobody would actually take psilencers if they might be fighting anyone other than Daemons. Also, psilencers are still worse than psycannons against most big Daemons - they get more shots but only wound on a 4+, whereas psycannons will wound on a 2+ (T5) or 3+ (T6) and can rend, reducing the 3+ armor save on those nasty Khorne Daemons and DPs to a 5+ or 4+ invuln. If it were me, I'd replace the Paladin psilencers wtih psycannons, but that's just personal preference. Also, if you combat squad the Paladins and run the GM with them, make sure he's in the squad with the Brotherhood Banner, because he benefits from the extra attack as well.

Do your interceptors and GKSS in this list have psycannons? I'd say that's almost a mandatory increase in firepower for them. Also, I would suggest Rhinos for your GKSS. Taking an all-infantry list favors the Daemon player, as Daemon armies generally have trouble with mech, particularly at range. Your list is also primarily focused on shooting, and the extra mobility lets them stay out of CC longer.

You also probably don't need the gatling psilencer on the Dreadknight. It's a surprisingly ineffective weapon, even against its primary targets - it will put wounds on lesser Daemons, but so does everything else in your army.

If you take the warding stave and gatling psilencer out, that's almost enough points for two Rhinos. Also, I might be mistaken, but the latest army you posted was a bit under 2000, which gives you a few more points to play with.

Other than those changes, I think your army list has come about as far as it can as-is. The original was pretty unfocused, this is more focused, but it still isn't what I would call competitive. It's somewhat reminiscent of (if I'm remembering correctly) Blackmoor's Draigowing army, which revolved around a 10-man Paladin squad. You could definitely go that route if you like the Paladins. The mandatory Crowe in particular is a real waste if you aren't building an army around him. If you're interested in reexamining your list from the ground up, we can do that, otherwise I'd suggest just sticking with what you have.

Roboute wrote:
Other than those changes, I think your army list has come about as far as it can as-is. The original was pretty unfocused, this is more focused, but it still isn't what I would call competitive. It's somewhat reminiscent of (if I'm remembering correctly) Blackmoor's Draigowing army, which revolved around a 10-man Paladin squad. You could definitely go that route if you like the Paladins. The mandatory Crowe in particular is a real waste if you aren't building an army around him. If you're interested in reexamining your list from the ground up, we can do that, otherwise I'd suggest just sticking with what you have.

Excellent feedback. Thank you!

I am not wedded to the idea of using paladins. In fact, I normally don't. I just thought they might be especially effective in close combat against Daemons.

I am definitely interested in reexamining my list from the ground up. . .

I will put another list together in Army Builder based around Crowe and post it here to see what you think.

Lord Thanatos


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is a list that focuses more upon Crowe, I think.

Castellan Crowe

Techmarine w/ storm bolter, blind/rad/psychotroke grenades

Techmarine w/ storm bolter, blind/rad/psychotroke grenades

x9 purifiers w/ DH, 4 halberds, 4 psycannons, psybolt ammo in rhino

x9 purifiers w/ DH, 4 halberds, 4 psycannons, psybolt ammo in rhino

x10 GKSS w/ DH, 2 psycannons, psybolt ammo
Razorback w/ HB, psybolt ammo

x10 Interceptors w/ DH, 2psycannon, psybolt ammo

Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter

Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter

I think I like this list better than the one with the paladins, because I like having more close combat capable units... and actually having a bit more ranged firepower at the same time.

Your thoughts?

Lord Thanatos

Lord_Thanatos wrote:Here is a list that focuses more upon Crowe, I think.

Castellan Crowe

Techmarine w/ storm bolter, blind/rad/psychotroke grenades

Techmarine w/ storm bolter, blind/rad/psychotroke grenades

x9 purifiers w/ DH, 4 halberds, 4 psycannons, psybolt ammo in rhino

x9 purifiers w/ DH, 4 halberds, 4 psycannons, psybolt ammo in rhino

x10 GKSS w/ DH, 2 psycannons, psybolt ammo
Razorback w/ HB, psybolt ammo

x10 Interceptors w/ DH, 2psycannon, psybolt ammo

Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter

Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter

I think I like this list better than the one with the paladins, because I like having more close combat capable units... and actually having a bit more ranged firepower at the same time.

Your thoughts?

Lord Thanatos

First, there's one mistake in your list. Squads of 9 Purifiers can't take 4 psycannons. Looks like you were trying to fit the Techmarines into the Rhinos too, but these squads will cost too much and end up trying to do too many different things and not being very effective.

Purifiers can be good at shooting or CC, but generally not both at the same time (at least not to the extent they need to be to take down Crushers and whatnot). This is because Purifiers need as many halberd attacks as possible to kill whatever they fight before it strikes, and taking psycannons reduces your halberd count in the squad.

Math Time!

Thanks to Preferred Enemy and psyk-out grenades, the squads you have can both do a number on a squad of 5 Crushers (for example) when charging. The difference between all halberds and some psycannons turns out to be whether or not some Crushers survive to kill a few Purifiers. It's when you get charged that you really see the difference, because that's when you need the halberds to minimize damage to your power armored Purifiers. For example, assume a healthy squad of Bloodcrushers charges one of the squads you have above (Purifiers with a Techmarine). Assume both Hammerhands went off (so S6) and the Crushers are T4 (rad grenades). 4 Halberds strike first at I6 (8 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 3.3 unsaved wounds distributed for probably no dead Crushers). Then the Crushers strike at I5 (blind grenades remove charge bonus, so 15 attacks, 10 hits, 8.3 wounds for about 8 dead Purifiers). After that, your Techmarine, any remaining psycannons and hammer will strike, and maybe kill a Crusher, but the squad has been gutted and will lose combat, probably sticking around with 1 or 2 models due to Fearless so you can't shoot the Crushers next turn.

In contrast, let's look at a squad of 10 Purifiers with halberds and a Techmarine, which just disembarked from a Stormraven and killed a Daemon Prince in the previous Assault phase. The same squad of 5 Crushers charges them. Hammerhands go off for S6. The Purifiers strike first at I6 (20 attacks, 15 hits, 12.5 wounds, distributed for about 8 unsaved wounds and three or four dead Crushers). The remaining Crusher or two then strikes, and about 2-4 Purifiers die. If two remain, they'll probably stick around through the No Retreat wounds and die in the following assault phase. Instead of him gutting your squad for minimal losses, you've gutted his squad and are left with enough Purifiers to make a difference in another fight.

IMO, the two most effective ways to take purifiers are a) a max-strength squad with halberds and a hammer in a Stormraven or b) a 5-man squad in a Rhino or Razorback with two psycannons. Stormravens are great because they're AV12 fast skimmers, which are a pain for Daemons to deal with, and because they're assault transports, providing your troops with a means to strike first against even winged units or beasts.

Also, splitting your Purifiers into ranged and melee units allows you to maneuver properly, keeping the ranged units out of combat while the melee units take out the biggest threat to your firebase. While GKs do fine in combat against Daemons, it's ranged weaponry that will be your biggest advantage against them, because their most competitive units are all assault-based (Fateweaver aside). I would suggest one max squad w/ Techmarine in a Stormraven for counterassault. Give them a Razorback because Crowe can hop in it. Then go for several small squads in Razorbacks with heavy bolters and psybolts. Dreadknights with heavy incinerators and personal teleporters can help with the counterassault and team up with the Purifiers to take out the most important threats. In later turns they can hunt down small squads of Troops that the Daemon player has holding objectives (or hiding out in KP games).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a list that I threw together real quick that I feel combines Purifier spam with enough anti-Daemon tools to get the job done.

HQ:
Crowe
Librarian (stave, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, Warp Rift, Dark Excommunication)

Elites:
Techmarine (blind, rad, psychotroke)

Troops:
9 Purifiers (8 halberds, 1 stave)

5 Purifiers (3 halberds, 2 psycannons)
Razorback (HB, psybolt ammo)

5 Purifiers (3 halberds, 2 psycannons)
Razorback (HB, psybolt ammo)

5 Purifiers (3 halberds, 2 psycannons)
Razorback (HB, psybolt ammo)

FA:
10 Interceptors (2 psycannons, psybolt ammo)

Stormraven (TL MM, TL AC)

Heavy Support:
Dreadknight (personal teleporter)


It's not tweaked (threw it together real quick), but it's got punch.

- Librarian, Techmarine and big Purifier squad go in the SR. They can take anything in the Daemon codex in one round, barring very bad luck (except maybe Fateweaver if he passes enough re-rolled Invulns and Ld checks). They're also almost as tough when assaulted. They wait until the right moment to commit, then tear out whatever's threatening you most.

- MSU Purifiers in Psybacks, with the help of Interceptors, put out the firepower you'll need to take down the biggest threats before they get into CC.

- Interceptors are there to combat squad and Warp Quake to give you some breathing room should you get the first turn. This unit is necessary to keep the Daemon player from DSing unmolested, which ameliorates one of the codex's primary weaknesses. Otherwise, they'll provide mobile firepower that the Daemon player probably won't be able to catch.

- The Dreadknight should probably have a heavy incinerator, but there weren't enough points. Regardless he'll provide a second counterassault unit effective against everything but MCs (who will still ignore his armor saves after Dark Excommunication and have equal or higher Initiative). Late game he can chase down Troops squads and thus contest objectives or get easy KPs.

- Crowe should have his own transport (bought by the big Purifier squad), but again there weren't enough points. He can steal a Razorback from a squad that's looking pretty safe and drive it towards the nearest prime target, or just hoof it as you probably won't need to worry about him getting shot up.

Roboute wrote:
Here's a list that I threw together real quick that I feel combines Purifier spam with enough anti-Daemon tools to get the job done.

HQ:
Crowe
Librarian (stave, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, Warp Rift, Dark Excommunication)

Elites:
Techmarine (blind, rad, psychotroke)

Troops:
9 Purifiers (8 halberds, 1 stave)

5 Purifiers (3 halberds, 2 psycannons)
Razorback (HB, psybolt ammo)

5 Purifiers (3 halberds, 2 psycannons)
Razorback (HB, psybolt ammo)

5 Purifiers (3 halberds, 2 psycannons)
Razorback (HB, psybolt ammo)

FA:
10 Interceptors (2 psycannons, psybolt ammo)

Stormraven (TL MM, TL AC)

Heavy Support:
Dreadknight (personal teleporter)


It's not tweaked (threw it together real quick), but it's got punch.

- Librarian, Techmarine and big Purifier squad go in the SR. They can take anything in the Daemon codex in one round, barring very bad luck (except maybe Fateweaver if he passes enough re-rolled Invulns and Ld checks). They're also almost as tough when assaulted. They wait until the right moment to commit, then tear out whatever's threatening you most.

- MSU Purifiers in Psybacks, with the help of Interceptors, put out the firepower you'll need to take down the biggest threats before they get into CC.

- Interceptors are there to combat squad and Warp Quake to give you some breathing room should you get the first turn. This unit is necessary to keep the Daemon player from DSing unmolested, which ameliorates one of the codex's primary weaknesses. Otherwise, they'll provide mobile firepower that the Daemon player probably won't be able to catch.

- The Dreadknight should probably have a heavy incinerator, but there weren't enough points. Regardless he'll provide a second counterassault unit effective against everything but MCs (who will still ignore his armor saves after Dark Excommunication and have equal or higher Initiative). Late game he can chase down Troops squads and thus contest objectives or get easy KPs.

- Crowe should have his own transport (bought by the big Purifier squad), but again there weren't enough points. He can steal a Razorback from a squad that's looking pretty safe and drive it towards the nearest prime target, or just hoof it as you probably won't need to worry about him getting shot up.

I like your list quite a bit. I was trying to maximize warp quake units in my lists. But when I went back to read the codex I saw that the warp quake is cast at the beginning of MY MOVEMENT PHASE. Therefore, if he goes first I don't get to cast a single warp quake before 1/2 his army arrives.

Because I have the option (as he does) of increasing my point allowance by 25 or 50 points I think I will take either 1) a Heavy Incinerator for the dreadknight, shrouding additional psychic power for Librarian, and a halberd for the techmarine; or 2) a HB psybolt ammo razorback that Crowe can hop into.

I did make a mistake in taking 4 psycannons w/ 9 purifiers (didn't doublecheck my list). Anyhow, I strongly agree that purifiers should either be 5 man shooting squads or 9-10 man close combat squads.

I very much like that you were able to provide a good place to include the Librarian (instead of the GK GM). I like the shrouding power for when the SR moves flat out. Is this completely unnecessary when facing Daemons?

Lord Thanatos

If he takes fateweaver and lots of mark of khorne 7 khornes blessing models then nothing you do will help in CC since they all get 2++ saves agains you or Crowe.
Crowe will probably cost you the game.

Take one or several dreadknights since they have a kickass flamer weapon and dark excommunication or whatever it is called that lets you negate all their blessings (no more 2++ and anti force weapons for his army).
Also a librarian is a must because of the dark excommunication.


I would go with:
Libby
3 dreadknights with heavy incinerators
5 full strike squads on foot with twin psycannons and psyammo.
Filling up with full sized interceptor squad, twin psycannon and psybolt ammo.
Rest of points go to libby survivability and powers.

Nothing and I mean nothng I have ever seen when it comes to deamon lists will stand the slightest chance against that.
You´ll have to be a blindfolded noob if you loose to him with this.

Pyriel- wrote:If he takes fateweaver and lots of mark of khorne 7 khornes blessing models then nothing you do will help in CC since they all get 2++ saves agains you or Crowe.
Crowe will probably cost you the game.

Take one or several dreadknights since they have a kickass flamer weapon and dark excommunication or whatever it is called that lets you negate all their blessings (no more 2++ and anti force weapons for his army).
Also a librarian is a must because of the dark excommunication.


I would go with:
Libby
3 dreadknights with heavy incinerators
5 full strike squads on foot with twin psycannons and psyammo.
Filling up with full sized interceptor squad, twin psycannon and psybolt ammo.
Rest of points go to libby survivability and powers.

Nothing and I mean nothng I have ever seen when it comes to deamon lists will stand the slightest chance against that.
You´ll have to be a blindfolded noob if you loose to him with this.

Thanks for the insightful input. I do appreciate the quick list you posted.

The problem is that I MUST use Crowe. We are playing this game as a "playoff" game after a league season. I must use Crowe.

So, if "Crowe will probably cost [me] the game" I am screwed. : ) Nevertheless, I don't intend to simply give up because I have to include Crowe. Also, Crowe's weapon is neither a psychic power nor a force weapon - so his rapier strike will ignore Botbg.

Botbg only works against psychic powers and force weapons. That is why the lists being discussed are all shooting lists with Libby and dreadknight to provide the Dark Excommunication in close combat.

He cannot assault after deep striking so everything that arrives will be shot up before it reaches close combat, right?

If you had to use Crowe what would your list suggestion be?

Lord Thanatos

Lord Thanatos wrote:I like your list quite a bit. I was trying to maximize warp quake units in my lists. But when I went back to read the codex I saw that the warp quake is cast at the beginning of MY MOVEMENT PHASE. Therefore, if he goes first I don't get to cast a single warp quake before 1/2 his army arrives.

Because I have the option (as he does) of increasing my point allowance by 25 or 50 points I think I will take either 1) a Heavy Incinerator for the dreadknight, shrouding additional psychic power for Librarian, and a halberd for the techmarine; or 2) a HB psybolt ammo razorback that Crowe can hop into.

I did make a mistake in taking 4 psycannons w/ 9 purifiers (didn't doublecheck my list). Anyhow, I strongly agree that purifiers should either be 5 man shooting squads or 9-10 man close combat squads.

I very much like that you were able to provide a good place to include the Librarian (instead of the GK GM). I like the shrouding power for when the SR moves flat out. Is this completely unnecessary when facing Daemons?

Lord Thanatos

I would definitely spring for a heavy incinerator for the dreadknight. Don't bother with shrouding unless you have points to spare, and definitely don't worry about a halberd for the Techmarine - it's 10 points and he has one attack with it. Besides, he already has a power weapon and two servo-arms. If you're looking to spend those last few points, consider psybolt ammunition for the big Purifier squad. I normally wouldn't recommend a ranged upgrade for a CC squad, but in this case the cost to benefit ratio is pretty good and can make all the difference in putting a wound or two on that MC you're charging.

Pyriel- wrote:If he takes fateweaver and lots of mark of khorne 7 khornes blessing models then nothing you do will help in CC since they all get 2++ saves agains you or Crowe.
Crowe will probably cost you the game.

Take one or several dreadknights since they have a kickass flamer weapon and dark excommunication or whatever it is called that lets you negate all their blessings (no more 2++ and anti force weapons for his army).
Also a librarian is a must because of the dark excommunication.


I would go with:
Libby
3 dreadknights with heavy incinerators
5 full strike squads on foot with twin psycannons and psyammo.
Filling up with full sized interceptor squad, twin psycannon and psybolt ammo.
Rest of points go to libby survivability and powers.

Nothing and I mean nothng I have ever seen when it comes to deamon lists will stand the slightest chance against that.
You´ll have to be a blindfolded noob if you loose to him with this.

First, Crowe will most certainly not cost him the game. In fact, Crowe will help greatly against at least one of those 2++ BotBG models you're so worried about. BotBG applies to wounds suffered from psychic powers and force weapons. The Blade of Antwyr isn't a force weapon (which doesn't really matter too much), but more importantly, Heroic Sacrifice is an outright kill with no saves, and doesn't cause wounds. That's about as good a use for Crowe as any I've seen.

Also, the maximum number of BotBG models in a realistic Daemon army is 5 (Skulltaker, another Herald, 3 DPs). Flesh Hounds don't count because they should never make it into combat (shoot them right away!) Same goes for all BotBG models - shoot them or assault them with Dark Excommunication and overwhelming force.

Finally, the list you posted has two problems: it's too many points (it's at 2k without the librarian) and isn't mobile at all. That many models on the board will struggle to concentrate their fire (all 24") to good effect, and don't bring anything worth mentioning to the Assault phase besides the slow as nails DKs. The lack of transports also allows the Daemon player to use his mobility to pick and choose his battles. If you get first turn, Warp Quake makes things a bit better for you, but if the Daemon player gets first turn you will probably lose.

You are right about the crowe instantkill ability. I am abroad and have no codex at hand so forgot.


You are wrong on the point cost though.
A 4 power libby with 5 full strike squads with twin psycannons and S5 stormbolters plus 3 incinerator dreadknights will cost 1850p. Thats points over for adding crowe into the 2100p limit and then some.
Crowe can be added simly to threaten any super HQs he might throw around if now Crowe must be in there.

As for your mobility, all your army moves 6 and shoots every turn. All your army can deepstrike. Throw in a cheap psychic communion inq and your deepstrike will be very effective.

If you are so conserned over mobility remove a dreadknight and give all squads a rhino each.

Again, I just cannot see a n y deamon list threaten this even remotly as long as it is used properly and as a shooty army.
This is a very simple build that does not rely on fancy combos or falls apart if the opponent gets a lucky vehicle destroyed hit etc. On the contrary having something that relies on small purifyer squads, their transports to always be able to move, psychic purifyer flame or instant forceweapon rolls etc, is worse since many many things can go wrong.

Pyriel- wrote:You are right about the crowe instantkill ability. I am abroad and have no codex at hand so forgot.


You are wrong on the point cost though.
A 4 power libby with 5 full strike squads with twin psycannons and S5 stormbolters plus 3 incinerator dreadknights will cost 1850p. Thats points over for adding crowe into the 2100p limit and then some.
Crowe can be added simly to threaten any super HQs he might throw around if now Crowe must be in there.

As for your mobility, all your army moves 6 and shoots every turn. All your army can deepstrike. Throw in a cheap psychic communion inq and your deepstrike will be very effective.

If you are so conserned over mobility remove a dreadknight and give all squads a rhino each.

Again, I just cannot see a n y deamon list threaten this even remotly as long as it is used properly and as a shooty army.
This is a very simple build that does not rely on fancy combos or falls apart if the opponent gets a lucky vehicle destroyed hit etc. On the contrary having something that relies on small purifyer squads, their transports to always be able to move, psychic purifyer flame or instant forceweapon rolls etc, is worse since many many things can go wrong.

Your original army list suggestion also had a full interceptor squad with psycannons and psybolt ammo. That entire squad would be over the points limit.

Moving 6 and shooting isn't so great when your enemy has wings, as all Daemon MCs worth taking do (Skarbrand aside, he's Fleet). Yes, your army can deepstrike, but why would you? You'd just have less firepower on the table at the beginning of the game, and you'd be giving up one of the primary advantages you have against a Daemon list (being able to focus your entire army on half of his for a turn). Also, he can't take an inquisitor in the list you suggest, because he already has 2 HQs.

The list I posted doesn't rely on transports always being able to move (they're there for firepower, mobility is a plus), purifying flame (pointless against Daemons, for the most part), or instant force weapon rolls (all Daemons have Eternal Warrior anyways). I'm wondering whether you really know what you're talking about here. The list you posted isn't bad per se, it just leaves room for a skilled Daemon player to take the initiative against your footsloggers, and it's very one-dimensional. What happens when the Daemons reach your lines? Those GKSS suck in CC.

I like the squad Roboute suggested comprised of Stormraven, Libby, Techmarine, and 9 purifiers w/8 halberds and 1 hammer. This unit allows me to decide who gets attacked and where. I think I can kill a Daemon Prince on the assault (the Libby has dark excommunication) and be able to win the next assault or two from Daemon Prince or crushers.

A single dreadknight with heavy incinerator also allows me to dictate the terms of the close combat he engages in - with dark excommunication.

Since he has to deep strike 1/2 his army, the two units above allow me to shoot at, then assault, two BotBG units of my choice.

I do not think 3 dreadknights are the equivalent of the two units described above.

Also, the grenades available to GK are essential against any cc unit. The 3 dreadknight army has no grenades. I have seen players do everything in their power to avoid my units equipped with grenades through the entire game. Thus, like controlling the center of a chess board, I get to move much more freely. Without grenades I would feel like I left home without putting on my pants...

Lord Thanatos

Your original army list suggestion also had a full interceptor squad with psycannons and psybolt ammo. That entire squad would be over the points limit.

Ah, my bad. I thought it was clear that I didnt meant to include the interceptors.

Also, he can't take an inquisitor in the list you suggest, because he already has 2 HQs.

Damn, I keep forgetting that he has to include the crutch...I mean Crowe.

The list I posted doesn't rely on transports always being able to move (they're there for firepower, mobility is a plus), purifying flame (pointless against Daemons, for the most part), or instant force weapon rolls (all Daemons have Eternal Warrior anyways). I'm wondering whether you really know what you're talking about here. The list you posted isn't bad per se, it just leaves room for a skilled Daemon player to take the initiative against your footsloggers, and it's very one-dimensional. What happens when the Daemons reach your lines? Those GKSS suck in CC.

If anything reached CC it will be so little those sucky GKs will handle it, plus you have a libby that boosts CC ability and dreadknights along with libby remove all blessings and things like bloodletter powereapons.

You keep worrying about CC when this is a very simple KISS list with practically speaking no fancy combos that need to be pulled of and make you screw up if something fails. How much deamon infantry can possibly get through into CC first facing 3 heavy incinerator 18´range flamers, 40 psycannon shots and 84 S5 stormbolter shots a turn that can move back or forth reacting to the opponents flow and still shoot?
The few things that get through face instant death by Crowe sacrafice, dreadknights, initiative 10 striking knights that go with S5 or S6 and sanctuary.
Almost all the table can be denied if GK get first turn to heard the deamons where he wants and objectives can be reached while moving with barely any loss of firepower.
Do you know yourself what you are talking about me wonder?
Have you even tried this list out? I have a lot of times and it works very, very well if played to its strenghts.

You find flaws in it true and there are flaws in it like in every single army and its builds out there but compared to other lists the flaws are not big.
Taking the usual dreadnoughts, one stormraven and/or purifyer rhinos with tiny squads that dont shoot much and you´ll start getting real trouble with things that can get through into CC if that is what is now worrying you.

I like the squad Roboute suggested comprised of Stormraven, Libby, Techmarine, and 9 purifiers w/8 halberds and 1 hammer. This unit allows me to decide who gets attacked and where.

Those are some 400+ points that dont even get to shoot and rely on a AV12 transport. Keep your things KISS. Shooting is a l w a y s preferred to CC, you hit more often, more turns, wound more consistent and take less casulties back and dont need to rely on a 200+ point tin can.

I do not think 3 dreadknights are the equivalent of the two units described above.

True to a certain degree.
Stormraven, libby to give it shrouding techmarine and purifyers make for a helluva expensive one assault pony protected by Av12 and relying on a psychic power.
You will most certainly get to assault the first half of the deamon army if nothing unexpected happens. Lets just hope you dont end up paying around 600 points to rush and assault 100 points worth of deamonettes. What happens after the assault, what is he has cheap sacraficial units mixed in with flamers, what happens if your AV12 buys it the turn after unassing your super assaulty unit...that costs a ton and still goes down just as easy to fire as a cheap strike knight does?

My suggestion is that you proxy a few nasty deamon lists and testgame the various GK lists against those and simply see what you like the best and get most fun with since fun isnt always equal to an efficient spam list.

What happens if there are three soulgrinders geared for anti MEQ shooting?

Taking this further on what happens if this list faces a non deamon army? How will your 600p super chicken fare agaist darl eldar boat spam for example or a razorback line?

If you want pure and simple kill power on the table top you just need to follow one simple rule above all else, KISS, keep it simple stupid. The less fancy gadgets and combos, the less reliance on turns, rolls, luck and things coming togethr, the less the chance of screwing up and the bigger the chance will be to win.

If you want to crush daemons, take Coteaz (as he has dark excommunication and sanctuary for only 100 points) and put him in a land raider with a henchmen squad that includes a banisher. Drive that land raider within 6 inches of fateweaver and shoot your entire army at fate weaver. Since the banisher forces daemons to reroll successful invul saves, fateweaver will drop quickly and the rest of his army will fold.

Pyriel- wrote:If anything reached CC it will be so little those sucky GKs will handle it, plus you have a libby that boosts CC ability and dreadknights along with libby remove all blessings and things like bloodletter powereapons.

Except if he's bringing a halfway decent list, he'll be including several MCs with wings, which fight at full effectiveness until killed, and will probably do a number on a GKSS before they're counterassaulted by a dreadknight. Also, if he's aiming to counter Dark Excommunication (which he might), he'll bring some Fiends of Slaanesh, which have volume of attacks and enough mobility to ensure one turn of shooting, max.

Pyriel- wrote:You keep worrying about CC when this is a very simple KISS list with practically speaking no fancy combos that need to be pulled of and make you screw up if something fails. How much deamon infantry can possibly get through into CC first facing 3 heavy incinerator 18´range flamers, 40 psycannon shots and 84 S5 stormbolter shots a turn that can move back or forth reacting to the opponents flow and still shoot?
The few things that get through face instant death by Crowe sacrafice, dreadknights, initiative 10 striking knights that go with S5 or S6 and sanctuary.
Almost all the table can be denied if GK get first turn to heard the deamons where he wants and objectives can be reached while moving with barely any loss of firepower.
Do you know yourself what you are talking about me wonder?
Have you even tried this list out? I have a lot of times and it works very, very well if played to its strenghts.

Like I said in my last post, it's a good list. I'm not saying it's not. But you ask how much Daemon infantry can possibly get through into CC? The answer is none, and they aren't the problem. I'm worried about MCs and possibly Crushers/Fiends, against whom your massive firepower will be blunted by higher T and 3+ saves. If he's rolling Fateweaver? Even under optimal conditionals (all GKSS are in range and don't have to move) you'll only put 7.4 wounds on T5 models with re-rolled 3+ saves (5 wounds plus 2.4 from psycannon rends against re-rolled 5+ invulns). That's certainly a lot less than you need to do against a first wave in one turn. When you list 40 psycannon shots and 84 S5 SB shots a turn, it sounds like a lot, but I'm not convinced that you'll be able to maneuver to bring all that firepower to bear effectively (not to mention that you lose half the psycannon shots on the move). It's still a crap ton of shots, and will tear through a few important targets, but the list sacrifices mobility for firepower, which leaves it open to exploitation by a canny opponent. Maybe that's just my personal preference.

Pyriel- wrote:You find flaws in it true and there are flaws in it like in every single army and its builds out there but compared to other lists the flaws are not big.
Taking the usual dreadnoughts, one stormraven and/or purifyer rhinos with tiny squads that dont shoot much and you´ll start getting real trouble with things that can get through into CC if that is what is now worrying you.

Your army list has its flaws, but it is tough, with a lot of bodies, heavy firepower and lots of redundancy. In some ways we're arguing semantics, because both lists will probably take any Daemon list out there and defenestrate it with style. You keep talking about lists I'm not talking about though - I've never suggested dreadnoughts (they wouldn't be good against Daemons), the tiny squads of purifiers have psybacks, not rhinos. Point for point, GKSS on foot are slightly killier at range, but they trade in their mobility and CC ability to do so. I guess it's a style difference - I prefer to maintain some mobility, because firepower doesn't mean much if the enemy outmaneuvers you. I'm not willing to count on winning the roll-off to find out if I get my 12" Warp Quake bubble or if the Daemons are showing up right in my grill, when and where they want to.

Pyriel- wrote:

I like the squad Roboute suggested comprised of Stormraven, Libby, Techmarine, and 9 purifiers w/8 halberds and 1 hammer. This unit allows me to decide who gets attacked and where.

Those are some 400+ points that dont even get to shoot and rely on a AV12 transport. Keep your things KISS. Shooting is a l w a y s preferred to CC, you hit more often, more turns, wound more consistent and take less casulties back and dont need to rely on a 200+ point tin can.

I do not think 3 dreadknights are the equivalent of the two units described above.

True to a certain degree.
Stormraven, libby to give it shrouding techmarine and purifyers make for a helluva expensive one assault pony protected by Av12 and relying on a psychic power.
You will most certainly get to assault the first half of the deamon army if nothing unexpected happens. Lets just hope you dont end up paying around 600 points to rush and assault 100 points worth of deamonettes. What happens after the assault, what is he has cheap sacraficial units mixed in with flamers, what happens if your AV12 buys it the turn after unassing your super assaulty unit...that costs a ton and still goes down just as easy to fire as a cheap strike knight does?

My suggestion is that you proxy a few nasty deamon lists and testgame the various GK lists against those and simply see what you like the best and get most fun with since fun isnt always equal to an efficient spam list.

What happens if there are three soulgrinders geared for anti MEQ shooting?

Taking this further on what happens if this list faces a non deamon army? How will your 600p super chicken fare agaist darl eldar boat spam for example or a razorback line?

If you want pure and simple kill power on the table top you just need to follow one simple rule above all else, KISS, keep it simple stupid. The less fancy gadgets and combos, the less reliance on turns, rolls, luck and things coming togethr, the less the chance of screwing up and the bigger the chance will be to win.

AV12 isn't much protection against most armies, but against Daemons at range it's just fine, particularly with a bubble of MSU around it (in which case the 24" Bolts might not even DS close enough to try for it). If the Daemon player brings cheap sacrificial units ... why would he throw his 600+ point deathstar at them, instead of waiting for an appropriate target to present itself? For that matter, if the Daemon player brings Daemonettes, the battle's over already, because they fold against any shooting whatsoever and are vulnerable to Purifying Flame in CC.

I would second the suggestion to proxy some nasty daemon lists. Real experience is always better than theoryhammer.

If there are three soulgrinders geared for anti MEQ shooting, the Purifier list would fare much better than your list, because all his units would start in metal boxes and he'd have all the tools to take out AV (lots of psycannons and a TL MM). Against all foot GK, that soulgrinder alphastrike would kill a fair few PAGK.

What happens if this list faces a non daemon army? You mean the list he's specifically tailoring to fight a Daemon army? Your list is definitely a better TAC list, but that's not what we're talking about here. I'd be giving much different advice if this wasn't a conversation specifically designed to figure out how to roflstomp Daemons with a list that must include Crowe.

I agree that good lists should require a minimal reliance on luck, turns and things coming together. Your list needs 1st turn to put pressure on the Daemon player with Warp Quake, and relies on the Daemon player failing a lot of armor saves. My list relies on keeping an AV12 skimmer operational long enough to deliver its cargo, which to me is a pretty safe bet against Daemons. Your list helps reduce the reliance on luck through massive, massive firepower. My list helps reduce the reliance on luck by using tools that minimize the number of rolls my opponent can make to mess with my plans. My list requires more finesse to get the most out of it, to be sure, but that's how I like my lists. Like I said, in the end it's probably a bit of a toss-up, and it's up to the OP to decide what kind of list he likes.

DooDoo wrote:If you want to crush daemons, take Coteaz (as he has dark excommunication and sanctuary for only 100 points) and put him in a land raider with a henchmen squad that includes a banisher. Drive that land raider within 6 inches of fateweaver and shoot your entire army at fate weaver. Since the banisher forces daemons to reroll successful invul saves, fateweaver will drop quickly and the rest of his army will fold.

I like this idea...

Comment on this list, please.

Castellan Crowe

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor w/ rad/psychotroke grenades, hammerhand & force weapon
x11 Inquisitorial Henchmen w/ 2 banishers (w/ eviscerators) & 9 DCA
Land Raider Redeemer

Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter, heavy incinerator & gatling psilencer

Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter, heavy incinerator & gatling psilencer

x10 Interceptors w/ 2 psycannons & psybolt ammo

x5 Purifiers w/ 2 psycannons, 2 halberds & daemonhammer in Rhino

x5 Purifiers w/ 2 psycannons, 2 halberds & daemonhammer in Rhino

x5 Purifiers w/ 2 psycannons, 2 halberds & daemonhammer in Rhino

Having Purifiers in Rhinos allow the two psycannons to shoot every turn. I lost 3 HB razorbacks, but gained 2 gatling psilencers (lost 9 shots, gained 24.) The ap14 armor is tough for daemons to deal with. The banishers force Fateweaver and other daemons to reroll successful invulnerable saves. The DCA benefit from rad grenades and hammerhand, have powerweapons not affected by BotBG, 5+ invulnerable saves and are initiative 6. Two dreadknights mean I still have two units cabable of casting dark excommunication.

If I replace the LR Redeemer with a SR I will save 40 points and can give truesilver armor to all 4 vehicles. Worth it?

This list, I hope, incorporates all the advice I have received. I am still not certain this is my best army, but that is why I post it here and ask for your thoughts, comments, critiques, etc... At this point, I am still leaning towards the list Roboute helped me craft primarily because I place a premium on mobility. Remember, I am obliged to include Castellan Crowe.

Lord Thanatos


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I keep meaning to ask, but am forgetting, the following question.

How many units should I expect the Daemon player to DS on turn one? I am thinking 6. Is this too high or too low?

Lord Thanatos

6 units in the first wave is about right, plus or minus one unit or so.

If you're going for a henchmen bomb in a LRR, you should trade a couple DCA for Crusaders to soak up damage for the squad, otherwise they're a one-hit wonder. Also, the eviscerators on the Banishers are a waste of points, they won't be doing the killing in that squad. An Inquisitor is a cheap way to get grenades, but losing the Librarian takes a lot away from this list. Then again, DCA don't have force weapons so you don't need to worry about BotBG so much. Coteaz might be a better choice for this unit as DooDoo suggested, as he will add a Dark Excommunication plus Sanctuary to help against the inevitable counterpunch. Plus he's Mastery Level 2 so he can still cast Hammerhand. Aaand he makes that henchmen bomb a scoring unit, so the survivors can run back into the LR after their initial strike and claim an objective in an objectives game.

Gatling psilencers are really just a waste for the points cost. 12 shots = 8 hits = 4 wounds, all allowing normal armor saves.

I would normally recommend a hammer in each Purifier squad, but Daemons have no vehicles to worry about. They cost a few more points and go last. Another halberd will help you to maximize damage before the enemy strikes at your somewhat fragile Purifiers, and Hammerhand helps mitigate the need for a weapon that wounds on a 2+.

Rhinos vs. Psybacks depends on what you're going for. If the squad disembarks, the Razorback is better, while if you plan to keep them meched, the Rhino will let those psycannons shoot out.

LRs certainly are hard for Daemons to deal with. Truesilver armor might be worth it on the LR, but not on anything else. It does seem like you're pinballing a bit between all of the stuff in the GK codex that works really well against Daemons (which is a lot of it, to be fair). I'd pick something to stick with and start playtesting, then make some tweaks. The army you've come up with is more about taking the fight to the Daemon player with the LR and DKs, then supporting them with ranged fire from the Purifiers and Interceptors. Not a bad way to go, but with the GK codex you really can't go wrong against Daemons.