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Scratch that, I should stop quoting rules from memory while on pain killers.

As for skorchas, my Death Guard army has those awesome drones (think super-tough deff koptas), which have 2d6 flame throwers.
Those 'feel' right for what skorchas should do, so simply upping their shots to 2d6 would probably be enough to actually justify spending 19 points on them, without becoming broken - it's still worse than a twin assault cannon on BS3+.

 Quackzo wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
With rerolling charges the chance of a successful charge should be just under 40% at nine inches.

Somebody mathhammered it and found that making a 9”charge with orks rerolling is about 48% - decent odds

I did some mathhammer myself, if you're willing to spend CP then if at least one of your dice is 4+ it's better to re-roll the other dice. This will bring the odds up to 57%.

Gosh, you're right the index states you can reroll not must. Not sure it's worth for a 4 (6-7% more chance for a CP) but if you have a 5+ and really want that charge, you definitely should spend a CP.
How could I've missed that.
Breaking heads is optionnal too.

 Jidmah wrote:


In my experience skorchas are not that awesome on CC units. Usually, when you are in range to skorch, you're also in range to charge it, so unless you don't want your model in combat (usually big meks), you're better off just buying a PK or killsaw instead.

My experience is just the same, I always bring PKs over Skorchas for this reason.

 Glitcha wrote:


I recently ran a 5 nob biker squad with kombi-rokkets. It was really expensive, but when you add dakka dakka strat to them it was awesome.

5 Nobz with kombi-Rokkitz costs 280pts. They put out 30 S5 shots hitting on 5s and 5 S8 shots using dakka dakka strategy you are likely to get 1.5 extra hits with S5 and you have a 30% chance to get 1 extra S8 hits. Nothing about that sounds good at all. For the same price you could have taken a bit over 10 warbikes who put out 60 shots at S5 and would get 3 extra hits using dakka dakka strategy. And that is still crap.

Any point in taking MA Warboss?
What do you think GW will do with him in Codex or what would you change so it becomes more useful? (sorry for whishlisting post)

Azhday wrote:
Any point in taking MA Warboss?
What do you think GW will do with him in Codex or what would you change so it becomes more useful? (sorry for whishlisting post)

The MA armour warboss got slightly better with the PK price drop from CA, unfortunately, he's still expensive and the 2+ save won't do much good against dedicated CC units and he's slow to boot. Since transports are so expensive this edition this makes him much more of a liability compared to foot/biker Warbosses. The other problem is that he can't take the relic BC since he doesn't have access to it, making him even worse off. Ultimately, if you want to go MA warbosses, it's better to go all in and just invest in ghazghkull, who has normal WB movement, a more accurate and much harder hitting powerklaw and the invuln. save to actually keep him alive.

MA needs a significant price drop to make it worth taking compared to the other Warboss options, or something like a built in invuln.

Azhday wrote:
Any point in taking MA Warboss?
What do you think GW will do with him in Codex or what would you change so it becomes more useful? (sorry for whishlisting post)

Too slow. I'm already angry about 5" movement, which enrages me slowly as I think about it.

4" is unbearable. A) 1" lag behind boys B) need overpriced transport C) double occupancg in transport D) no point jumping him over a boys or meganobs unit

I agree. My MA Warboss was the star of my 7th list and is probably the kitbash I'm most proud of, but I've fielded him maybe twice the edition, and those two times were enough to know that he's just garbage, now.

 Grimskul wrote:

Azhday wrote:
Any point in taking MA Warboss?
What do you think GW will do with him in Codex or what would you change so it becomes more useful? (sorry for whishlisting post)

The MA armour warboss got slightly better with the PK price drop from CA, unfortunately, he's still expensive and the 2+ save won't do much good against dedicated CC units and he's slow to boot. Since transports are so expensive this edition this makes him much more of a liability compared to foot/biker Warbosses. The other problem is that he can't take the relic BC since he doesn't have access to it, making him even worse off. Ultimately, if you want to go MA warbosses, it's better to go all in and just invest in ghazghkull, who has normal WB movement, a more accurate and much harder hitting powerklaw and the invuln. save to actually keep him alive.

MA needs a significant price drop to make it worth taking compared to the other Warboss options, or something like a built in invuln.

You can swap out the kustom shoota for an item on the choppy weapons list, so the MA warboss could take the relic but then they'd carry two melee weapons. The regular warboss can do the same which I have been considering so I can have a warboss with headwoppas killchoppa + the relic. I rarely get any use out of the shooty weapon so even though it seems like an awkward choice it might provide some nice flexibility.

IronSlug wrote:

 Quackzo wrote:

I did some mathhammer myself, if you're willing to spend CP then if at least one of your dice is 4+ it's better to re-roll the other dice. This will bring the odds up to 57%.

Gosh, you're right the index states you can reroll not must. Not sure it's worth for a 4 (6-7% more chance for a CP) but if you have a 5+ and really want that charge, you definitely should spend a CP.
How could I've missed that.
Breaking heads is optionnal too.

My reasoning for keeping the 4, was that you would need to roll a 5+ on the other die which has probability 1/3. Rolling 9+ on 2d6 has probability 5/18. Scrapping the 4 and using 'Ere We Go instead we get a probability of 56%. So it's about the same and we get to keep our 1 CP.

In real games, if you roll a 5-6 on one die when you charge, you're better off spending this 1 CP on the second one if you want this charge to happen. However, if you roll below 4 on both, there is sure no reason to waste a cp waiting for 5-6.

 Quackzo wrote:
My reasoning for keeping the 4, was that you would need to roll a 5+ on the other die which has probability 1/3. Rolling 9+ on 2d6 has probability 5/18. Scrapping the 4 and using 'Ere We Go instead we get a probability of 56%. So it's about the same and we get to keep our 1 CP.

Those numbers presented in a weird way. So for clarity:
Rolling 9+ with 2d6 is a 27.77% chance.
Re-rolling both dice of the failed 72.22% with the same odds increases your chance by 20.06% for a total of 47.83%

Of all possible results that could fail a 9" charge only 15 would have a four, five or six in it, which is 41.66%
For the seven results with a four, you have a 33.33% chance to succeed (better than rolling 9+ with 2d6!)
For the six results with a five, you have a 50% chance to succeed
For the four results with a six, you have a 66.66% chance to succeed
So, after spending a CP, you have an average chance of 53.33% to make that one roll.

However, you general chance to succeed the charge increases by 22.22%
Re-rolling both dice of the remaining 30.06% get another 8.49% chance for a total of 27.77%+22.22%+8.49% = 58.49%

So using the CP to re-roll one dice if you have a 4+ grants about 10.43% (give or take a hundredth percent) increased chances to succeed charges from deep strike over not using them.
In comparison, +1" charge ranges grants almost 25% increased chances to assault from deep strike.

Bottom line, it's probably a good idea to spend CPs on making important charges, but you still have huge chance of failure.

edit: fixed post according to Quackzo's calculation

 Quackzo wrote:

IronSlug wrote:

 Quackzo wrote:

I did some mathhammer myself, if you're willing to spend CP then if at least one of your dice is 4+ it's better to re-roll the other dice. This will bring the odds up to 57%.

Gosh, you're right the index states you can reroll not must. Not sure it's worth for a 4 (6-7% more chance for a CP) but if you have a 5+ and really want that charge, you definitely should spend a CP.
How could I've missed that.
Breaking heads is optionnal too.

My reasoning for keeping the 4, was that you would need to roll a 5+ on the other die which has probability 1/3. Rolling 9+ on 2d6 has probability 5/18. Scrapping the 4 and using 'Ere We Go instead we get a probability of 56%. So it's about the same and we get to keep our 1 CP.

That was my point exactly, using a cp while keeping a 4 (and I'm nbot talking about a 5 or 6 as I think it's worth it) make you spend a CP for not a lot of added chance to get the charge. But I'd still consider it on a particuliarly critical charge roll.

About the PKs, I know they are back with the point drop but I've still problems with it. I find them really unreliable and lacking for their cost.
PKs are in my idea anti armor weapon (as other models with a high save generally have invul anyway). But generally you have a pk with a bunch of choppa (boyz, stormz, kommandos, etc...) whose attacks are "kinda" wasted against armor (and I know it's only kinda in 8th)
In my opinion, Pks are only really worth in dedicated anti-armor CC units who can brings several of them (nobz, meganobz) or characters but not on "sergeant" nobz.

For 13 Points, the are still great at killing units with good saves, even more so if they are multi-wound or FNP models like terminators, primaris or plague marines.
Just don't expect them to kill tanks or monsters. D3 damage is for killing elite infantry, d6 kills stuff with 7+ wounds.

Okay so how to deal with armor ?
Tankbustas need a transport and their damage output is not crazy, so not that great.

And please don't answer "just ignore it and take objectives", even if it's the best thing to do. I know it's a competitve thread, but if for what ever reason you really had to deal with armor, what would you guys bring ?

 Jidmah wrote:

 Quackzo wrote:
My reasoning for keeping the 4, was that you would need to roll a 5+ on the other die which has probability 1/3. Rolling 9+ on 2d6 has probability 5/18. Scrapping the 4 and using 'Ere We Go instead we get a probability of 56%. So it's about the same and we get to keep our 1 CP.

Those numbers presented in a weird way. So for clarity:
Rolling 9+ with 2d6 is a 27.77% chance.
Re-rolling both dice of the failed 72.22% with the same odds increases your chance by 20.06% for a total of 47.83%

Of all possible results that could fail a 9" charge only 7 would have a four, five or six in it, which is 19.44%
For the four results with a four, you have a 33.33% chance to succeed (better than rolling 9+ with 2d6!)
For the three results with a five, you have a 50% chance to succeed
For the two results with a six, you have a 66.66% chance to succeed
So, after spending a CP, you have an average chance of 59.52% to make that one roll.



However, you general chance to succeed the charge increases by 11.58%
Re-rolling both dice of the remaining 52.77% get another 14.66% chance for a total of 27.77%+11.58%+14.66% = 54.02%

So using the CP to re-roll one dice if you have a 4+ grants about 6.18% (give or take a hundredth percent) increased chances to succeed charges from deep strike over not using them.
In comparison, +1" charge ranges grants almost 25% increased chances to assault from deep strike.

Bottom line, it's probably a good idea to spend CPs on making important charges, but you still have huge chance of failure.

I'll be more clear and explain my working. You're correct about re-rolling a failed charge, but you've done some miscounting after that part.

7 outcomes with a 4: (1,4), (2,4), (3,4), (4,4), (4,3),(4,2), (4,1)
Given that you fail, you have 7/36(~19.4%) chance of getting at least one 4.
Given that you've kept a 4 and re-roll the other die, then you have a 1/3 chance.
The probability of those two events occurring in sequence is 7/108, or ~6.5%.

6 with a 5: (1,5), (2,5), (3,5), (5,3), (5,2), (5,1)
Given that you fail, you have 6/36(~16.7%) chance of getting at least one 5.
Given that you've kept a 5 and re-roll the other die, then you have a 1/2 chance.
The probability of those two events occurring in sequence is 1/12, or ~8.3%.

4 with a 6: (1,6), (2,6), (6,2), (6,1)
Given that you fail, you have 4/36(~11.1%) chance of getting at least on 6.
Given that you've kept a 6 and re-roll the other die, then you have a 2/3 chance.
The probability of those two events occurring in sequence is 2/27, or ~7.4%.

The point I was trying to make in my second post is that you get the highest probability when you keep a 4+ and spend CP but the probability of only keeping on a 5+ and spending CP is close enough to consider it as an option.
So I'll run through the computations of each case:
Spending no CP:
5/18 chance to succeed + (13/18)*(5/18) chance to succeed with 'Ere we go = ~47.8%

Spending CP to re-roll on a 6:
5/18 chance to succeed + (11/18)*(5/18) chance to succeed with 'Ere we go + 2/27 chance to succeed with CP re-roll = ~52.2%

Spending CP to re-roll on a 5+:
5/18 chance to succeed + (4/9)*(5/18) chance to succeed with 'Ere we go + 2/27+1/12 chance to succeed with CP re-roll = ~55.9%

Spending CP to re-roll on a 4+:
5/18 chance to succeed + (1/4)*(5/18) chance to succeed with 'Ere we go + 2/27+1/12 + 7/108 chance to succeed with CP re-roll = ~56.9%

So clearly re-rolling when you have at least one 4+ die grants you the best chance of success, but if you're worried about your CP than it is not unreasonable to use 'Ere We go when you have a 4, and choosing to only use CP for a 5+.

Ah right, I forgot the reverse results, I'll edit my post so no one gets confused.

It's just a 2% difference though and my conclusion is the same as yours.
So, two people on dakka agree! Yay! *marks callender*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

IronSlug wrote:
Okay so how to deal with armor ?
Tankbustas need a transport and their damage output is not crazy, so not that great.

And please don't answer "just ignore it and take objectives", even if it's the best thing to do. I know it's a competitve thread, but if for what ever reason you really had to deal with armor, what would you guys bring ?

The only units that can reliably take out armor are tank bustas, KMK and kannons, in that order.
The KMK has the best point efficiency, durability and range, so it's the clear winner, but there are few vehicles that survive 9 tank busta rokkits, a tank busta bomb and two squigs. Kannons are pretty much the horde attempts, bring 10+ and they will start taking out a vehicle or two per turn, maybe even a flier.
A couple of bubble chukkas could also annihilate a vehicle, but they are very vulnerable to bad dice luck.
All other sources of rokkits are too expensive and too few rokkits to actually make a difference.

In combat, the only things I have seen take down vehicles with ease are Ghazkhull Thrakka and the Gorkanaut. Dreads would work in theory, but in practice they simply don't reach their targets before dying.

I guess you could also bring a stompa if you feel like playing with a 500 point handicap. Hilariously, I witnessed a game at the GW on Thursday where a guy with a stompa tabled someone running one of the finest chaos-soup there is. I guess he didn't expect the stompa to one-shot Mortarion on turn 1 and later kill Magnus as well. Well, no one expected that, not even the fellow with the stompa.

A more practical question, is it better to have 32mm base on our orks or the usual 25mm? A bigger footprint allow us to have a greater reach, however, I find myself often in little spaces with too many models to let them all attack.
What do you guys thinks is best?

Regular orks and grots are better off with 25mm. Nobz need 32 mm.

IMHO you should play models with the bases they are provided with.

I made a little chart that lists the probability of a making a first turn or second turn charge against a (non moving) enemy at various distances. Cheers:

Question.

I feel like the wording of mob up is open enough that I could merge a unit of 10 shootas with 30 sluggas, and vice versa.

I'm thinking of jumping a 40 man mob and this appeals to me. 3 sluggas replaced with big shootas, plus 8 shootas and another big shoota, kustom shoota on the nobs.

That works out to 8 shootas, 2 kustom shootas, and 4 big shootas in a unit with 25 choppa/sluggas and 2 power klaws.

Conversely that could be 4 big shootas, 2 kustom shootas, 26 shootas in a unit with 8 slugga boys and 2 pks.

You can already mix the mob without merging it.

Personally, I prefer jumping shoota boyz, because they still do something if they fail their charge.
Anything that get hit by 40 charging shoota boyz is not going to get up afterwards anyways.

What experience have people have with the Wazbom Blastajet?

Pepin wrote:
What experience have people have with the Wazbom Blastajet?

It is totally useless.

Damn I never realized you can mix and match boyz. That makes them primo as hell.

You could deploy a slugga front layer with dual pk nobz for guaranteed slugging and close combat destruction with the shoota rearguard for increased reach to increase likelihood of range when shooting, with the big shootas in the back. Then take casualties from the shootas in the rear. That mix kinda takes the shoota slugga dichotomy out of the mix and further balances the versatility of shoota boys.

A 40 man shoota squad kills just about 4 and a half meqs at full bs, so I'm thinking thats one combat squad deleted more or less, then mass charge and eviscerate whatevers left.

Why bother footslogging or even worse, using transports.

Thats 2 troop slots per unit. Guaranteed max leadership and the extra cc attacks including on the pk nob, and no wasting points on useless hqs for clustery daisychains and unbearable movement phases.

Just show up, boom. Then roughly 50 for a t1 charge, or guaranteed second. If they countercharge, overwatch from hell unless they direct a gakload of fire which I would assume they would. Even then whats the chance of chewing through more boys than would force that full unit to flee.

Then kommandos to taste with snikrot for a batallion detach as support. Teleport the second unit T2 with guaranteed jump for anuvva go.

This eliminates literally all the 5" move footslogging, hq/buffbot daisychaining garbage and overpriced transports from the equation.

Literally the only drawback is psychic focus, but the first one and the kommandos come in t1 with or without the second boyz unit.

pismakron wrote:

Pepin wrote:
What experience have people have with the Wazbom Blastajet?

It is totally useless.

Do you mind elaborating?

pismakron wrote:

Pepin wrote:
What experience have people have with the Wazbom Blastajet?

It is totally useless.

I feel the same. From my experience I get like 1 good shot off with the smasha gun, maybe some other shots with the other guns. Then by the second turn it has been damaged enough that it drops in BS and rarely hits anything. I think if you want flyers go with dakka jet or burna bommer. Dakka jet can hit things, burna bomms look really effective and you get a bonus bomm in the plane exploding.

Pepin wrote:

pismakron wrote:

Pepin wrote:
What experience have people have with the Wazbom Blastajet?

It is totally useless.

Do you mind elaborating?

It is very expensive and has almost no damage output. Its main gun is essentially a weak las-cannon, and the other guns are plasmas hitting on 5+ and frying the host aircraft on a 1. The KFF is nice to have, but it would have been better on pretty much any other platform than a supersonic flyer. If you want an aeroplane go for the dakkajet or bunabommer. Both of them are decent.

It looks like the burnabomber puts out 5 mortals on a unit of 10. Just based on mathhammer for that alone I dont see anything of comparable price that can do more than half that. At least the potential for it to do damage is quite good.

Dakkajet puts out about 3 dead meqs a turn with six supa shootas at full health. I just cant really get excited by that. That is slightly better against meqs than lootas. Do people playing dakkajets have good results?

What about the bommas?

 TedNugent wrote:
It looks like the burnabomber puts out 5 mortals on a unit of 10. Just based on mathhammer for that alone I dont see anything of comparable price that can do more than half that. At least the potential for it to do damage is quite good.

Dakkajet puts out about 3 dead meqs a turn with six supa shootas at full health. I just cant really get excited by that. That is slightly better against meqs than lootas. Do people playing dakkajets have good results?

What about the bommas?

The bomma isn't as good as the burna because its ability only activates on vehicles which are rarely in squads. Now, if it was something like 1d3 damage against vehicles (which it should be) it would definitely be better. Still better than the wazbom, though.