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 TedNugent wrote:
Well, I keep looking at the shooting units against flyers and everything short of the KMK ends up being garbage just in terms of the raw mathhammer.

I understand that everyone is getting hung up on an easy hyperbole, but realistically what pure shooting options do orks have to take out a stormraven?

The best option is to ignore the flier and kill everything else and hope you have enough models left at the end oft the game. Any shot fired at a flier will do 50% (gretchin) or 100% more damage to non hard to hit units.

pismakron wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Bring back the old rule whereby if a unit of grots is between an enemy firing unit and a unit of ork infantry which are the target, the orks count as being in cover but every successful save they make results in one dead grot.

The problem is, that it is very often ambiguous when a unit is "between" two other units. But it is definitely a mechanism that is missing from the game: Like a ruin confers cover to units inside it, but a unit behind the ruin can be shot at with no penalty?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gargazz wrote:

pismakron wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Gargazz wrote:
8th edition. Greatest edition for Ork competitive play revival since 3rd.

I'm finally painting ork boys that I bought when they came in boxes of 16.

Enjoy the good times while they last gentlemen - cause when the lean times come again they'll last another generation.

I hate to be Debby Downer here, but I would rather get 4th edition back where I had 3-4 lists that were highly competitive but not necessarily top tier. being pigeon holed into a single style of game play is excessively boring.

Well, I certainly don't want 4th edition back, but I want trukk-boyz, trukk-manz, walker-wall, and speed-freaks to be viable strategies. I don't care for gunlines, though. If Ork long range shooting remains second-rate, then that is fine with me.

All that jazz will be back... just be patient.

I think I am I would definitely rather have a good codex in June than a so-so codex in February.

Well you'll get a codex that GW thinks is good for selling the models that are stacking up in the warehouse, and you'll learn to like it!

Hope they give us a unit of flying bomb squigs in the codex. They would be like scourges in starcraft. Suicide units hitting on 2+ would be nice. And more squigs in general pls.

I was thinking Skorchas dont seem that bad for a unit with outflank. They handily outshoot any other weapon option.

Theyre still expensive as hell, but....

Idk, Gorkanauts, Morkanauts, kans, dreads, shootas, lootas, big guns, both transports, dakkajets;

All seem to be gak with the exception of the kmk and maybe a bomber. And kmks seem like an inconvenience to model and I'm not sure if a GW shop would allow a homebuilt kit over their crazy 40 dollar per gun kit.

For screen removal could they be useful for backfield presence?

Fixed

I though buggies and skorchas outflank was limited to arriving outside 9" aswell. Have I read it wrong all this time?

Never mind, they changed advance to the movement phase.

This is why I keep looking at the damn index and I can't think of anything that doesnt involve jumping a 40 man boyz unit, greentide with or without buffbots, kmks, bombas or kommandos.

God, what an awful ruleset. Just please at least fix transport costs in the codex.

I keep imagining moving 120 boys across the board while trying to daisychain them to a warboss and painboy and it makes my nose bleed. Or converting Kmks.

Personally I'm going to go with a couple 40 man boyz units and a single weirdboy, jump them both with some kommandos to taste. Done, no mess. I figure getting people to accept sluggas with a couple of burnas per unit as a kommando proxy wont be too hard.

So: Kommandos. I haven’t used them yet (I haven’t played many 8th games) but I can field 30 of them with Snikrot. Which is the better deployment: 2 units of 15, 3 of 10 or 6 of 5? This would be in a Green Tide list with 110 Boyz, 15 Stormboyz and a Jumping Weirdboy, so I have plenty of other stuff that can charge 1st and 2nd turn too.

Then again, I also know this is the Moar Boyz edition, and those models could be used as another mob of 30 (they’re painted in camo as Blood Axes because I wanted the versatility to use them as either boyz or kommandos). Even using 2 units of 15 and kitting the nobz with BCs, that’s a boyz mob for 197 vs 2 Kommandos units and Snikrot for 353. You can get a lot of good stuff for ~150pts, like 5 Nobz w/runts or 8 Tankbustas w/squigs.

Is snikrot even necessary? He seems like the waagh banner nob and unnecessary for the same reasons.
Orks already excel at close combat. You should be focusing on staying alive or increasing probability of a turn 1 charge. More bodies and more units increase probabilities of that.

With rerolling charges the chance of a successful charge should be just under 40% at nine inches.

Think of each unit adding to that chance of success linearly leaving a margin for overwatch, spacing, and screening units and you've got a lot needed to make that work.

What does rerolling 1s really do for that strategy. You already know if you've made it to combat you're dealing significant damage and you've neutralized shooting for that unit.

I have been running a list using boyz in the place of 4 x 15 Kommandos; (something I hope everyone does, for cost sake) 2 burnas and a power klaw in each. For the turn they charged, they are solid; then you need something jumping/moving in for the follow up.
Squad size of 5 vs 15; The only thing I don't like about it is more drops but, I seem to roll higher when I don't get the +1.
Most will say the extra burnas and nob+weapon is worth it, I was thinking of running 2 x vanguard with 12 x 5 kommandos. Won't get the +1, but 24 free burnas might actually make those points back! with 12 BC/PK nobs depending on whats in your local's usual fodder line. Sound fun to play anyway...

Ok guys so I'm building my army.

So far 30 boys, 5 nobs, 1 warboss all painted.

Painting 35 models in one batch has got me thinking about ways to get my model count down. So what do you guys think of this unit:

10 nobs with power stabbas and shootas.

That's 200 points vs 197 for 30 boys with pk.

Nobs have 20 wounds and the 4+ which I think makes them as good as 30 boys survival wise.

The -2 ap and 5s on the stabba goes a long way to making up for the difference in attacks, although statistically choppa boys win in anything up to t8.

You can also give them kustom shootas for 40 points for 20 more shots. Not sure if want to drop that many points in one unit but would make them great for shooting one group and Charing the next.

I think fitting in a transport, not dropping in efficiency like boyz when they are below 20 models, the 4+ save, s5, 2ap are all plus points. Oh and only pairing 1/3rd of the models (and much better models)

Thoughts guys???


They also have the bonus of being able to fit in a trukk if they become viable again.

mrtomski wrote:
Ok guys so I'm building my army.

So far 30 boys, 5 nobs, 1 warboss all painted.

Painting 35 models in one batch has got me thinking about ways to get my model count down. So what do you guys think of this unit:

10 nobs with power stabbas and shootas.

That's 200 points vs 197 for 30 boys with pk.

Nobs have 20 wounds and the 4+ which I think makes them as good as 30 boys survival wise.

The -2 ap and 5s on the stabba goes a long way to making up for the difference in attacks, although statistically choppa boys win in anything up to t8.

You can also give them kustom shootas for 40 points for 20 more shots. Not sure if want to drop that many points in one unit but would make them great for shooting one group and Charing the next.

I think fitting in a transport, not dropping in efficiency like boyz when they are below 20 models, the 4+ save, s5, 2ap are all plus points. Oh and only pairing 1/3rd of the models (and much better models)

Thoughts guys???


They also have the bonus of being able to fit in a trukk if they become viable again.

Go for it! If it appeals to you tactically and hobby wise then try it. Don't wait for the meta, create a new one! Even if it turns they are slightly sub-optimal, I'm sure they will have some strengths of their own that you can utilise. Rules change eventually, so if you don't like building 200 boyz there is no point to do so now if you are a patient person.

 TedNugent wrote:
With rerolling charges the chance of a successful charge should be just under 40% at nine inches.

Somebody mathhammered it and found that making a 9”charge with orks rerolling is about 48% - decent odds

KillerOfMany wrote:
I have been running a list using boyz in the place of 4 x 15 Kommandos; (something I hope everyone does, for cost sake) 2 burnas and a power klaw in each. For the turn they charged, they are solid; then you need something jumping/moving in for the follow up.
Squad size of 5 vs 15; The only thing I don't like about it is more drops but, I seem to roll higher when I don't get the +1.
Most will say the extra burnas and nob+weapon is worth it, I was thinking of running 2 x vanguard with 12 x 5 kommandos. Won't get the +1, but 24 free burnas might actually make those points back! with 12 BC/PK nobs depending on whats in your local's usual fodder line. Sound fun to play anyway...

I must have missed it somewhere, but where’s the +1 coming from?

I will probably just split the difference and run 3 units of 10 to see how it goes then adjust from there. I like Snikrot for a couple reasons - rerolling 1’s on 3+ is just really good - you’re essentially getting extra attacks that then have a really good chance of hitting, and in smaller units that seems like it’d be crucial. Only missing on 2’s in that first attack roll for a first turn charge seems fantastic. Forcing a higher morale test for other units I just decimated seems useful too. Plus I have a really badass kitbashed model that comes close to the official one, except I got it for free using spare bitz

mrtomski wrote:
Ok guys so I'm building my army.

So far 30 boys, 5 nobs, 1 warboss all painted.

Painting 35 models in one batch has got me thinking about ways to get my model count down. So what do you guys think of this unit:

10 nobs with power stabbas and shootas.

That's 200 points vs 197 for 30 boys with pk.

Nobs have 20 wounds and the 4+ which I think makes them as good as 30 boys survival wise.

The -2 ap and 5s on the stabba goes a long way to making up for the difference in attacks, although statistically choppa boys win in anything up to t8.

You can also give them kustom shootas for 40 points for 20 more shots. Not sure if want to drop that many points in one unit but would make them great for shooting one group and Charing the next.

I think fitting in a transport, not dropping in efficiency like boyz when they are below 20 models, the 4+ save, s5, 2ap are all plus points. Oh and only pairing 1/3rd of the models (and much better models)

Thoughts guys???


They also have the bonus of being able to fit in a trukk if they become viable again.

Make sure to buy a box of gretchin and use them as ammo runts. They are basically 10 extra wounds for your nob unit for 40 points.

As for power stabbas - they haven't pulled their weight for me yet. In many cases, the basic choppa does just as well, and in other cases you need a PK or big choppa. In any case at least two or three nobz are usually going to die, so in a unit of 10 just have 3 without any extra wargear and kill them off first.

 Jidmah wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
Ok guys so I'm building my army.

As for power stabbas - they haven't pulled their weight for me yet. In many cases, the basic choppa does just as well, and in other cases you need a PK or big choppa. In any case at least two or three nobz are usually going to die, so in a unit of 10 just have 3 without any extra wargear and kill them off first.

What are they under performing against? The attaction for me is they are only 3pts and add nice -ap punch.

Do you find basic choppa Nobs good?

My first 5 Nobs are actually all PKs, so I could potentially end up with some mixed squads. Point for point the pk nobs are the best we have against high save t8 (I've done the maths).

Do Slugga&Choppa Nobz have their place? Maybe in Trukks? Would that 5 str compared to Boyz' 4 str make much difference?

Azhday wrote:
Do Slugga&Choppa Nobz have their place? Maybe in Trukks? Would that 5 str compared to Boyz' 4 str make much difference?

Not much difference, no. Nobz damage-output per point is decent enough, but still much less than basic boyz. The only exception is against T8 targets, where Nobz are better whether they have a choppa, big choppa or klaw. But of the three the klaw is the better choice now that it is cheaper.

Vanilla nobz still have a place though, as you typically don't want to eat into your expensive klaw Nobz with your first casualty. Take a mix between Klaws and Choppas, with the odd big choppa thrown in.

Are people playing Bikers at all? Had a game with a buddy who ran 5 Nob bikers with Power Klaws and a skorcha or two. Ran alongside a Warboss on a bike.

I was not prepared for how fast they can get across the table, and underestimated the amount of shooting that they put out (just found out you can replace their sluggas with shootas). That's 6 dakkagun shots and 2 shoota shots per bike! 3 wounds per model is also pretty tanky, they soaked up a lot more shots than I expected.

Nobz on warbikes are pretty expensive. In a unit like you're describing, you're averaging something like over 50 ppm.

While that shooting may seem impressive, just under a meq a turn, if he's advancing cut that in half.

Then keep in mind you can get two warbikers for that price for twice the dakkagun shots. Compare that to a comparable marine unit. The skorchas would be the major dealbreakers but we're talking almost 20 points for 3.5 s5 hits.

Let me run some math on purely ranged nob bikers with kombi skorchas. I dont think anybody's talked a lot about that. Its over 60 ppm but I'm curious what the math shows. Each skorcha is roughly 1 MEQ. The dakkaguns are roughly .8 MEQs and .05 MEQ with the shoota if you dont advance. So best case scenario, 2 dead MEQs at 22 inch threat range per turn for over 60 ppm. Compared to shoota boys that's twice the damage output at a 24" threat range, assuming you could get them all in range to shoot in a full unit.

Conversely, if you advanced, thats .4 dead MEQs from the shooting and one dead MEQ from the skorcha.

I really dont know. They're fast but synergize poorly and are expensive. Considering the cost, I dont know that t5, 4+ and 3w is that outstanding. Compare it to comparable units in the price range. This could be worth the thought experiment. Each warbiker unit can also have a free nob with a kombi skorcha.

Without knowing any better, yeah it doesnt sound too bad compared to the rest of the index. If nothing else it's fast and can shoot and assault which I cant say for - buggies, lootas, burnas, tankbustas, kans/dreads, koptas, nauts....

In assault, the weapons are expensive still....you're talking a measley 4 s5 attacks per model unless you spend another at least 7 points.

ajax_xaja wrote:
Are people playing Bikers at all? Had a game with a buddy who ran 5 Nob bikers with Power Klaws and a skorcha or two. Ran alongside a Warboss on a bike.

I was not prepared for how fast they can get across the table, and underestimated the amount of shooting that they put out (just found out you can replace their sluggas with shootas). That's 6 dakkagun shots and 2 shoota shots per bike! 3 wounds per model is also pretty tanky, they soaked up a lot more shots than I expected.

If you want bikers for their shooting just field regular bikers. You'll get way more shots and bodies for the same amount of points. I think units of 3 or 6 bikes are ok in semicompetitive metas, but you need a list full of T5 or higher T. They're overcosted and usually buggies do the same job for cheaper but they may do something in a list that suits them.

mrtomski wrote:What are they under performing against? The attaction for me is they are only 3pts and add nice -ap punch.

There basically two ways they don't pull their weight against:
1) targets with little armor to ignore. Pox walkers, daemons, orks and assault terminators (3++) only let you ignore one or not armor when striking them, so the extra attack would simply be better against them. Especially with a banner nob nearby an extra save is better than -1 to armor.
2) targets with good armor and many wounds don't care about the stabber either. Against a T6+ model with save 3+ a stabba is doing .44 damage, a choppa .3 - IMHO not enough of a difference to spent 3 points.
Which basically leaves the stabba to be good against marines, but nobz already kill those dead twice over.

Do you find basic choppa Nobs good?

Nope. But 10x stabba is 30 points. 2x PK and 8x choppa is 26 points, 4x BC and 6x choppa is 28 and either do better against almost all targets.
I had the best results with either 3xPK or 5xBC, each riding a battlewagon. Both units with max shootas and ammo runts of course.

Azhday wrote:Do Slugga&Choppa Nobz have their place? Maybe in Trukks? Would that 5 str compared to Boyz' 4 str make much difference?

Well, more of a place than boyz have anyways. A unit of nobz in a trukk is always stronger than a unit of boyz in a trukk, since they also have more attacks.
In my experience the best use for slugga&choppa nobz is catching bullets for nobz with valuable wargear.

pismakron wrote:Vanilla nobz still have a place though, as you typically don't want to eat into your expensive klaw Nobz with your first casualty. Take a mix between Klaws and Choppas, with the odd big choppa thrown in.

I've also found that taking small arms fire (without AP) on nobz instead of gretchin increases the durability of a nobz unit by a lot. Put that 4+ armor to work

ajax_xaja wrote:Are people playing Bikers at all? Had a game with a buddy who ran 5 Nob bikers with Power Klaws and a skorcha or two. Ran alongside a Warboss on a bike.

I was not prepared for how fast they can get across the table, and underestimated the amount of shooting that they put out (just found out you can replace their sluggas with shootas). That's 6 dakkagun shots and 2 shoota shots per bike! 3 wounds per model is also pretty tanky, they soaked up a lot more shots than I expected.

Matches my experience, but in they end a dedicated anti-tank or anti-elite unit wipes them out with little to no effort. For their price, you can't even argue that they draw fire from more valuable targets, because I can't think of any but nauts.
To add insult to injury, nobz in battlewagons are a lot harder to kill and cost almost the same.

I've ran Nob bikers and found them to be lacking. As has been stated already, on paper they seem decent but when you factor the cost and fact that every multi damage weapon your opponent has will be firing at them they soon disappear. They simply aren't durable enough with the 4+, no invulnerable and no ability to take ammo runts.

Interestingly, I don't think the Nobs in warbiker mobs can take skorchas, they are limited to melee upgrades only.

I would take more warbikes over Nobs on bikes, their shooting is roughly the same and you have other options for melee damage.

 Multimoog wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
With rerolling charges the chance of a successful charge should be just under 40% at nine inches.

Somebody mathhammered it and found that making a 9”charge with orks rerolling is about 48% - decent odds

I did some mathhammer myself, if you're willing to spend CP then if at least one of your dice is 4+ it's better to re-roll the other dice. This will bring the odds up to 57%.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Interestingly, I don't think the Nobs in warbiker mobs can take skorchas, they are limited to melee upgrades only.

The index seems to disagree. They can trade their slugga for any weapon from the shooty list, including kombi-skorchas. It makes them more expensive than skorcha buggies though, which have twice as many wounds per model.

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Interestingly, I don't think the Nobs in warbiker mobs can take skorchas, they are limited to melee upgrades only.

The index seems to disagree. They can trade their slugga for any weapon from the shooty list, including kombi-skorchas. It makes them more expensive than skorcha buggies though, which have twice as many wounds per model.

I recently ran a 5 nob biker squad with kombi-rokkets. It was really expensive, but when you add dakka dakka strat to them it was awesome.

How well are Orks standing against the new Deamons? Is it necessary to fear a blob of 30 Bloodletters or Plaguebearers or can 30 boys take such a charge? 30 Pink horrors is for sure as bad 30 Termagants.

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Interestingly, I don't think the Nobs in warbiker mobs can take skorchas, they are limited to melee upgrades only.

The index seems to disagree. They can trade their slugga for any weapon from the shooty list, including kombi-skorchas. It makes them more expensive than skorcha buggies though, which have twice as many wounds per model.

Hes talking about warbiker mobs. Warbiker boss nob can only exchange his choppa.

Nobs on bikes can get shootas or choppy upgrades.

Nora wrote:
How well are Orks standing against the new Deamons? Is it necessary to fear a blob of 30 Bloodletters or Plaguebearers or can 30 boys take such a charge? 30 Pink horrors is for sure as bad 30 Termagants.

30 Bloodletters from the index already evaporated boyz on the charge and died miserably when getting charged, and that hasn't changed. They might have more buffs now, improving their chances of getting the charge, or hitting harder when they do. Make sure to guard your KMKs from deep strikes, as 30 bloodletters+herald can deep strike and charge rerollable 3d6+1" for 4 CP. If you leave them unattended, their skulls will be collected. Khorne still has little in terms of defense, so their stuff dies if you get the charge.

Plaguebearers on the other hand are a lot less impressive. Without buffs they basically just refuse to die (1 attacks, hit on 4+), but if Poxbringer (old herald) and the Scrivener (+2" movement, +1 to hit, bonus attack on 7+) are nearby they become both fast and deadly. There is also a ton of skills adding fallen plaguebringers back to units.
Nurgle in general has rather few things to handle hordes, but will totally ruin your day if you have models with multiple wounds. A daemon prince with hellforged sword can do up to 7 damage per attack.

 TedNugent wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Interestingly, I don't think the Nobs in warbiker mobs can take skorchas, they are limited to melee upgrades only.

The index seems to disagree. They can trade their slugga for any weapon from the shooty list, including kombi-skorchas. It makes them more expensive than skorcha buggies though, which have twice as many wounds per model.

Hes talking about warbiker mobs. Warbiker boss nob can only exchange his choppa.

Nobs on bikes can get shootas or choppy upgrades.

^ This.

We know pure Nob bikers can take shooty weapons but Nobz in warbiker units can't as far as I'm aware?

That's right, they can't even have a regular choppa. Sorry I misread.

Warbikers outshoot biker nobz even if you factor in shootas, I did the math a couple of pages ago.

In my experience skorchas are not that awesome on CC units. Usually, when you are in range to skorch, you're also in range to charge it, so unless you don't want your model in combat (usually big meks), you're better off just buying a PK or killsaw instead.

 Jidmah wrote:
That's right, they can't even have a regular choppa. Sorry I misread.

Warbikers outshoot biker nobz even if you factor in shootas, I did the math a couple of pages ago.

In my experience skorchas are not that awesome on CC units. Usually, when you are in range to skorch, you're also in range to charge it, so unless you don't want your model in combat (usually big meks), you're better off just buying a PK or killsaw instead.

Lol they can't even take a standard Choppa?! Isn't it their default weapon? Jokes if they can't.

Yea I agree with you on Skorchas, they're just too expensive for the damage output. Maybe if they had an extra -AP?