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An idea was suggested to me in which you combine Hunters from Hyperspace with the VOD. I think that, obviously, they can deepstrike from reserves (FAQ), but the idea takes that one step further. The idea is that every time they use the veil, they get to pick an additional target to get 2+ to wound against.

My stance is that HFH only works when they are deployed, aka when they move onto the table from reserves.

Thoughts?

I was just discussing this with my friend. We double checked the FAQ and it didn't say anything about it.

Of course you can't deepstrike from reserve with the Cryptek in the squad but he was saying you start the game with the group on the board, place your HFH token, then veil.

I'm curious what others think as well.

ApostlePat wrote:Of course you can't deepstrike from reserve with the Cryptek in the squad...

Actually you can according to the FAQ. You just use the Cryptek's Veil of Darkness and not the Deathmarks Ethereal interception.

Ghaz wrote:

ApostlePat wrote:Of course you can't deepstrike from reserve with the Cryptek in the squad...

Actually you can according to the FAQ. You just use the Cryptek's Veil of Darkness and not the Deathmarks Ethereal interception.

That's correct. But just to be clear, you can't enter deepstrike reserves (which is what Ethereal Interception requires), you enter normal (board edge) reserves, and when your roll for that unit comes up, you use the cloak to deepstrike instead of moving onto the table. A little off-topic but possibly deserved some clarification.

From the other thread regarding this exact issue, here is my .02

"The first paragraph for Deep Strike says "Roll for arrival of these special units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy them as follows"

It also uses the deploying verbiage in the deep strike mishap explanation.

I would say it counts as deploying them.

I don't play Necrons. In Fact, I'm an Ork player and this would suck having it done to me, but it seems legit. "

Also, reserves and deep strike are 2 separate things. There's no "Deep Strike Reserves" vs "Normal Reserves", there's just "Reserves". The VoD just gives you an option to come in using the deep strike rules, or come in from the table edge. All Ethereal Interception does, is allow you to perform the deep strike with the Deathmarks during an enemy turn when they bring a unit in from reserves.

So, with the VoD, you can still deploy your Deathmarks from reserve using the Deep Strike rules. The only thing that's going to be a problem, is crappy reserve rolls.

Dodgywop wrote:From the other thread regarding this exact issue, here is my .02

"The first paragraph for Deep Strike says "Roll for arrival of these special units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy them as follows"

It also uses the deploying verbiage in the deep strike mishap explanation.

I would say it counts as deploying them.

I don't play Necrons. In Fact, I'm an Ork player and this would suck having it done to me, but it seems legit. "

Also, reserves and deep strike are 2 separate things. There's no "Deep Strike Reserves". Ethereal Interception just allows you to perform the deep strike with the Deathmarks during an enemy turn when they bring a unit in from reserves.

So, with the VoD, you can still deploy your Deathmarks from reserve using the Deep Strike rules. The only thing that's going to be a problem, is crappy reserve rolls.

There is actually such a thing as "Deep Strike Reserves", just like there's "Outflanking Reserves". You have to declare how your units are entering from play from reserves. The Deathmark special ability itself uses the phrase "Deep Strike Reserves" to signify that you can only use this special ability when you have specifically declared that they will be deepstriking.

To me, the unit has already been deployed, and veil of darkness is just a way for them to move "Instead of moving normally..."

Rephistorch wrote:

Dodgywop wrote:From the other thread regarding this exact issue, here is my .02

"The first paragraph for Deep Strike says "Roll for arrival of these special units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy them as follows"

It also uses the deploying verbiage in the deep strike mishap explanation.

I would say it counts as deploying them.

I don't play Necrons. In Fact, I'm an Ork player and this would suck having it done to me, but it seems legit. "

Also, reserves and deep strike are 2 separate things. There's no "Deep Strike Reserves". Ethereal Interception just allows you to perform the deep strike with the Deathmarks during an enemy turn when they bring a unit in from reserves.

So, with the VoD, you can still deploy your Deathmarks from reserve using the Deep Strike rules. The only thing that's going to be a problem, is crappy reserve rolls.

There is actually such a thing as "Deep Strike Reserves", just like there's "Outflanking Reserves". You have to declare how your units are entering from play from reserves.

I see what you mean now. I knew you had to declare how you were coming in from reserves, just never actually used the "Deep Strike Reserves" terminology.

The Deathmark special ability itself uses the phrase "Deep Strike Reserves" to signify that you can only use this special ability when you have specifically declared that they will be deepstriking.

Only EI is worded this way, however, I was stating that HfH will still work with VoD since the wording of HfH only states that "When deploying" they get to place a token.

To me, the unit has already been deployed, and veil of darkness is just a way for them to move "Instead of moving normally..."

VoD states they Deep Strike back on to the field, and with the wording for Deep Strike, it seems this would count as deploying.

Dodgywop wrote:
Only EI is worded this way, however, I was stating that HfH will still work with VoD since the wording of HfH only states that "When deploying" they get to place a token.

To me, the unit has already been deployed, and veil of darkness is just a way for them to move "Instead of moving normally..."

VoD states they Deep Strike back on to the field, and with the wording for Deep Strike, it seems this would count as deploying.

The only portion of the deep strike rules that contain the word "deploy" is the same portion that says they have to start the game in reserve, and that they must also roll for reserves to be deployed:
"Roll for the arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy them as follows." The word deploy is only referring to them entering from normal reserves. It's not used anywhere else in this section. This leads me to believe that only deep striking from reserves (after declaring at the beginning of the game that the unit is deep striking from reserves) is deployment. The rules for deepstriking are under the first paragraph, and I believe those are the only rules that HfH references.

Either way, this codex was poorly worded. BTW, I do play necrons and even I think this level of cheese is ridiculous.

Rephistorch wrote:

Dodgywop wrote:
Only EI is worded this way, however, I was stating that HfH will still work with VoD since the wording of HfH only states that "When deploying" they get to place a token.

To me, the unit has already been deployed, and veil of darkness is just a way for them to move "Instead of moving normally..."

VoD states they Deep Strike back on to the field, and with the wording for Deep Strike, it seems this would count as deploying.

The only portion of the deep strike rules that contain the word "deploy" is the same portion that says they have to start the game in reserve, and that they must also roll for reserves to be deployed:
"Roll for the arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy them as follows." The word deploy is only referring to them entering from normal reserves. It's not used anywhere else in this section. This leads me to believe that only deep striking from reserves (after declaring at the beginning of the game that the unit is deep striking from reserves) is deployment. The rules for deepstriking are under the first paragraph, and I believe those are the only rules that HfH references.

Either way, this codex was poorly worded. BTW, I do play necrons and even I think this level of cheese is ridiculous.

Thank you. I was planning on digging through the books tonight to argue against this nonsense, but you've got it. Deep strike only mentions deploy in reference to coming out of reserves.

Nate668 wrote:

Rephistorch wrote:

Dodgywop wrote:
Only EI is worded this way, however, I was stating that HfH will still work with VoD since the wording of HfH only states that "When deploying" they get to place a token.

To me, the unit has already been deployed, and veil of darkness is just a way for them to move "Instead of moving normally..."

VoD states they Deep Strike back on to the field, and with the wording for Deep Strike, it seems this would count as deploying.

The only portion of the deep strike rules that contain the word "deploy" is the same portion that says they have to start the game in reserve, and that they must also roll for reserves to be deployed:
"Roll for the arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy them as follows." The word deploy is only referring to them entering from normal reserves. It's not used anywhere else in this section. This leads me to believe that only deep striking from reserves (after declaring at the beginning of the game that the unit is deep striking from reserves) is deployment. The rules for deepstriking are under the first paragraph, and I believe those are the only rules that HfH references.

Either way, this codex was poorly worded. BTW, I do play necrons and even I think this level of cheese is ridiculous.

Thank you. I was planning on digging through the books tonight to argue against this nonsense, but you've got it. Deep strike only mentions deploy in reference to coming out of reserves.

Wrong. Deep Strike Mishap explains this as well, as well as in the mishap table without mentioning anything regarding reserves.

So with this argument, you are saying that if they Veil, and mishap, and on a score of 3-4 and the opponent "deploys" them, that they could place a marker because this is the only time that "deploy" is used without being a reference to coming out of reserves? No.

It seems you also may be inferring when they do Veil, there's no rules on how they are placed back on the board, because the deployment instructions for Deep Strike are only when coming out of reserves. You can't just say that a portion of the rule applies and ignore the rest.

Your argument would also infer that the unit could only Veil once, since Deep Strike can only happen from reserve per the BRB where it says "If you wish to use this Deep Strike option, then the unit must begin in reserves" - this would mean that since they weren't in reserve, they couldn't Deep Strike back on to the table. -- But that is not the case. The wargear enables them to Deep Strike after they are already on the table. The fact they tell you to deep strike, one would think, that they are going to use the Deep Strike rules - which indicate that they are "deployed" (from reserves or not) by placing 1 model on the board with the remaining unit being placed in base contact in a circle around the 1st model.

Dodgywop wrote:

Wrong. Deep Strike Mishap explains this as well, as well as in the mishap table without mentioning anything regarding reserves.

So with this argument, you are saying that if they Veil, and mishap, and on a score of 3-4 and the opponent "deploys" them, that they could place a marker because this is the only time that "deploy" is used without being a reference to coming out of reserves? No.

It seems you also may be inferring when they do Veil, there's no rules on how they are placed back on the board, because the deployment instructions for Deep Strike are only when coming out of reserves. You can't just say that a portion of the rule applies and ignore the rest.

Your argument would also infer that the unit could only Veil once, since Deep Strike can only happen from reserve per the BRB where it says "If you wish to use this Deep Strike option, then the unit must begin in reserves" - this would mean that since they weren't in reserve, they couldn't Deep Strike back on to the table. -- But that is not the case. The wargear enables them to Deep Strike after they are already on the table. The fact they tell you to deep strike, one would think, that they are going to use the Deep Strike rules - which indicate that they are "deployed" (from reserves or not) by placing 1 model on the board with the remaining unit being placed in base contact in a circle around the 1st model.

I'm going to have to disagree here, and chalk this up to rules written without thought to their consequences. Look at the Grey Knights book as a GOOD example of how this rule was written (I know, same author!). The summoning: "The unit is removed from the table top and immediately placed ... using the deep strike rules". Every codex that has come before the Necron codex has used this or very similar wording. "Using the deepstrike rules" is key. In my opinion these two phrases, while not actually identical, should function exactly the same. When they say, "Immediately Deepstrike" it should be read "Immediately placed on the table using the deepstrike rules". Otherwise the rule is ambiguous and open to interpretation. The rules for deepstrike say that you MUST roll for reserves, maybe immediately deepstrike means that you immediately roll for reserves to see if they come back into play? Nowhere in the rule does it say that you actually ignore the reserve roll. You can't have it both ways - they're either placed using the deepstrike rules (but NOT being redeployed, because they were already on the table), or they go into reserves for deployment and eat the reserve roll. Either way RAI, I'm pretty sure being able to pick multiple targets at a whim was never the intention of the HfH rules, and is a type of WAAC mentality that is quite sad. I for one would never ever use or allow this to be used in any game I played.

Dodgywop wrote:
Wrong. Deep Strike Mishap explains this as well, as well as in the mishap table without mentioning anything regarding reserves.

So with this argument, you are saying that if they Veil, and mishap, and on a score of 3-4 and the opponent "deploys" them, that they could place a marker because this is the only time that "deploy" is used without being a reference to coming out of reserves? No.

It seems you also may be inferring when they do Veil, there's no rules on how they are placed back on the board, because the deployment instructions for Deep Strike are only when coming out of reserves. You can't just say that a portion of the rule applies and ignore the rest.

Your argument would also infer that the unit could only Veil once, since Deep Strike can only happen from reserve per the BRB where it says "If you wish to use this Deep Strike option, then the unit must begin in reserves" - this would mean that since they weren't in reserve, they couldn't Deep Strike back on to the table. -- But that is not the case. The wargear enables them to Deep Strike after they are already on the table. The fact they tell you to deep strike, one would think, that they are going to use the Deep Strike rules - which indicate that they are "deployed" (from reserves or not) by placing 1 model on the board with the remaining unit being placed in base contact in a circle around the 1st model.

Don't you realize that your interpretation ALSO takes a portion of the rule and ignores the rest? The only use of the word "deploy" in the deep strike rules, aside from the mishap table, is:

"Roll for arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy them as follows."

Rephistorch and I are suggesting that you ignore this entire sentence when using VoD, because obviously you shouldn't be placed back into reserve. That clearly isn't the intent of VoD. YOU are suggesting that we ignore only the first three quarters of this sentence! Don't you realize how ludicrous that is? The fact that any of you actually believe that you should actually be able to get multiple HfH tokens just by using a VoD to move annoys me to no end. Stop trying to find easter eggs in the rules and just play the damn game.

I agree with the above statement.
RAI (perhaps not strictly RAW), the unit should use the Deep Strike rules for placement, not the section of the Deep Strike rules regarding reserves. Deployment has always involved coming onto the table from reserves in my book, not any time a model is removed from the table and put back on.
The wargear does NOT allow them to Deep Strike, it simply borrows the placement rules from the Deep Strike ruling.

The deathmarks are "removed from the tabletop" by the veil. They then arrive via deepstrike. They aren't on the table and thus need to deploy via the veil by deep strike.

katfude wrote:The deathmarks are "removed from the tabletop" by the veil. They then arrive via deepstrike. They aren't on the table and thus need to deploy via the veil by deep strike.

I'd rather keep my friends than 'deploy' the Deathmarks every turn. And consider who's telling you this.

As above.

Any time there has been a "deploy" it has been ruled that this is when they deploy on the table for the first time.

Oh but now you have done it. This is from a different thread but the consensus is by Raw you can do it. After you deploy said deathmarks using grand illusion to put them in reserves and then deepstriking them. Would that not constitute two deployments?

But to just fly around the board getting counters is absurd.

Yep, can't argue against that one, unfortunately. I certainly wouldn't play it that way (I have a necron army) but technically the RAW supports it. However, if you're going to be ridiculous and say that it's okay, it's only going to work if you deploy second, because RAW you get to place the token on a unit on the table when you deploy, so if you deploy first, nothing will be on the table.

Nate668 wrote:Yep, can't argue against that one, unfortunately. I certainly wouldn't play it that way (I have a necron army) but technically the RAW supports it. However, if you're going to be ridiculous and say that it's okay, it's only going to work if you deploy second, because RAW you get to place the token on a unit on the table when you deploy, so if you deploy first, nothing will be on the table.

Which is how the rule works - forcing a Necron player with Deathmarks to go first negates HfH.

Unless they hold the models in Reserve, of course

nosferatu1001 wrote:Unless they hold the models in Reserve, of course

Right, sorry.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nate668 wrote:Yep, can't argue against that one, unfortunately. I certainly wouldn't play it that way (I have a necron army) but technically the RAW supports it. However, if you're going to be ridiculous and say that it's okay, it's only going to work if you deploy second, because RAW you get to place the token on a unit on the table when you deploy, so if you deploy first, nothing will be on the table.

Which is how the rule works - forcing a Necron player with Deathmarks to go first negates HfH.

Which is why I said it. I wasnt trying to suggest that it should work otherwise in that respect.

Nate668 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nate668 wrote:Yep, can't argue against that one, unfortunately. I certainly wouldn't play it that way (I have a necron army) but technically the RAW supports it. However, if you're going to be ridiculous and say that it's okay, it's only going to work if you deploy second, because RAW you get to place the token on a unit on the table when you deploy, so if you deploy first, nothing will be on the table.

Which is how the rule works - forcing a Necron player with Deathmarks to go first negates HfH.

Which is why I said it. I wasnt trying to suggest that it should work otherwise in that respect.

Right. But you also said "However, if you're being ridiculous ... RAW you get to place the token ..." implying that it's a ridiculous interpretation. It's not.
If I misunderstood your intent, then nevermind.

The part about getting two tokens is what I feel is ridiculous, not that it only works if you deploy second.

The way I play it is I only get a second token if the Deathmarks ever go back into reserve, such a if I use Grand Illusion (I don't because the C'Tan is too expensive) or if they mishap -delayed and are moved back into reserves. However, the latter is a rarity, as it requires both a mishap and a lucky roll of the D6 after that.

EDIT: Due to the language of the rules, RAW they technically can have another token with every VoD, however I'm well aware that is clearly against RAI and a complete abuse of semantics in clear violation of the spirit of the game and of the model.

azazel the cat wrote:

katfude wrote:The deathmarks are "removed from the tabletop" by the veil. They then arrive via deepstrike. They aren't on the table and thus need to deploy via the veil by deep strike.

I'd rather keep my friends than 'deploy' the Deathmarks every turn. And consider who's telling you this.

Those are some fickle friends imo. I'm just following the rules and expect others to do likewise.

The reason I don't agree that they are re-deployed is because they never actually enter reserves.
If it said to remove the models from the table and place them in reserves, then I would argue that a second mark could be placed.
Things like Grand Illusion I see more argument for, but Veil is a definite no.

I can agree with that. There's no firm answer anyway so the old d6 roll off until FAQ is fair.

katfude wrote:I can agree with that. There's no firm answer anyway so the old d6 roll off until FAQ is fair.

^ Always.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nate668 wrote:Yep, can't argue against that one, unfortunately. I certainly wouldn't play it that way (I have a necron army) but technically the RAW supports it. However, if you're going to be ridiculous and say that it's okay, it's only going to work if you deploy second, because RAW you get to place the token on a unit on the table when you deploy, so if you deploy first, nothing will be on the table.

Which is how the rule works - forcing a Necron player with Deathmarks to go first negates HfH.

Except you can deep strike deathmarks during either players turn if the enemy brings anything on from reserves. So if you go first and they have anything on the table and you manage to DS your deathmarks you can put down a token. Or if you go second and first turn they bring anything on from reserves you can deep strike your deathmarks and put down a token.

Or at least that;s how i see it. I havn't read up on the exact rulings for deathmarks in a while. If i'm wrong then it's cool.