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So I played a doubles game today and it was supposed to be a friendly game. It was 2 v 2 at 2000 points, 1K for each side. Teams were random.

My 1K empire list was matched with Ogres.

The other team was 1K of high elves matched with Warriors of Chaos.

I built an empire list to be more friendly - using skirmishing archers as a bunker for my lvl 1 mage, arch lecter, flagellants and only 2 mortars and 1 cannon.

Ogres had one hellblaster, 3 sabretusks and one unit of bulls with a slaughtermaster, bruiser and a lvl 1 butcher.

High elves were some 40 archers with a lvl 3 mage and a lord and 2 bolt throwers. WoC had 5 knights, 20 warriors, war altar and a lvl 3 sorcerer of death.

So things start, people move and a few shots are fired. All of a sudden, turn 2, the WoC player throws Purple Sun's Zenith (at the behest of his puppeteer) at the OK block. It travels past and wipes a bunch of Flags and Archers too.

Using Purple Suns to me is about the most competitive unfriendly thing you can do - and especially on a huge block of ogres. I scooped - said good game and that was that. The high elf player said since I was using 2 mortarts I wasn't playing friendly either (even tho they killed a net 3 dudes on my firing turn).

What do you think?

In addition I will be posting a thread to hear your empire cheeze in the WHFB ARmy Lists section. Apparently this guy can't play for fun so I'm no longer going to play around with units like skirmishing archers - from now on it's all competition and 3 cannons and 3 mortars against him in every game.

Generaly if its a friendly game with random opponents, you are still going to get some friction.

We discuss spells and such prior to the game, along with a number of other things. This is mandatory with pick-up games, as most of my regular opponents and I have long and lengthy discussions about this stuff all the time.

My friends and I have no issue tabling or being tabled, so losing (most of) an army in a phase is generally a learning experience and never really an issue. More often than not it leads to someone buying drinks.

Yeah, unless you discuss it, everyone is going to have at least slightly different views of friendly.

Friendly doesn't mean sucky. If he had purple sun, that's one of the spells he's limited to. If you expected him to not cast it, you should have brought it up when it was rolled, otherwise it's a wasted spell slot.

2 mortars and a cannon at 1k points isn't "only." And I agree it was at least as cut-throat as sun. The fact you rolled poorly doesn't change that. Purple sun could have missed completely as well.

The difference between mortars and the sun is he can toss 6 dice and get irrisistable force on the sun. At that point does the miscast matter? no.


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And I can't throw 6 dice at a mortar and wipe your entire army

kirsanth wrote:We discuss spells and such prior to the game, along with a number of other things. This is mandatory with pick-up games, as most of my regular opponents and I have long and lengthy discussions about this stuff all the time.

My friends and I have no issue tabling or being tabled, so losing (most of) an army in a phase is generally a learning experience and never really an issue. More often than not it leads to someone buying drinks.

This is about the only way to go about things when you're playing pick-up games outside of your circle of friends.

Everyone has differing ideas & morals about what is 'gentlemanly' and 'sporting' in a game. Hell, I know morons who think it's fair play to list tailor to their opponents, and if they're not told what army their opponent is using, they start name-calling and decrying their opponent as being unfair!

Trust me, I know how idiotic and stupid the broken spells are as I play VC's! I've had to endure a number of a-hats ruthlessly exploiting the big spells and other 'turn 1 insta-wins' against me.
All you can do is either decline to play that individual again because he's not trying to give you a fun & engaging game, or else bring your own 'uber colby list and roflstomp him in turn. See how he likes being on the reciving end of it for a change!

I thought of that as well. Unfortunatly he's running Elves so I can't run a lvl 4 wizard lord of death on a pegasus and purple suns him on turn 1 :/ - Hmm I wonder if there is something different I can do in another lore similar....

But ya that is my general idea - to build an army so beardy he'll never want to play me again.

I know what sun is. I also know what multiple mortars do to T3 elves in a 1K point game. And yes, they can absolutely wipe out his army. You even had a cannon to boot. In fact, 25% of your points were war machines. A perfect hit on an infantry/archer block can hit 21 units. Of those, half it will kill with no save. That's 1 mortar. Admittedly, it requires a perfect hit, but say it takes all 3 war machines to do that. You're taking out ~200 pts a turn. If you got two turns of that, it's pretty much over.

You don't have to like it, but you brought the same thing. You just rolled poorly.

The fact you're now trying to "do something similar" doesn't sound like you're as interested in being casual.

If I wanted to be cheap with empire I would field 3 mortars, 2 cannons and a Helstorm Rocket Battery at 1000 points...

And the difference between mortars and the zenith is I both have to roll to wound and then armor saves can be taken. Against the WoC the mortars would have been garbage (Especailly since his war altar gave them +1 T).

But to pull out a spell, cast on 6 dice to wipe out the ogres in one hit with no saves... that's not nearly the same as fielding a mortar.

It's Warhammer or Warhammer 40k. There is no friendly games...

Ogryn wrote:It's Warhammer or Warhammer 40k. There is no friendly games...

This

I do not play warhammer to have a softball game with some friends. I play it to test my skills and get my gaming group ready for tournament play. We still have fun doing it and we learn alot about how our lists work and where the breaking point is. At one doubles tournament my buddy and I took 6 night goblins mages, a lvl1 brayshaman with herdstone and a Lvl 4 Shadow mage, that it +7 Power Dice a turn....

YOu know when I played 40K I had no issues. Whether I was playing Orks or Gay Knights - it was always competitive and fun - and the games were so much more relaxed.... Fantasy just feels more up tight making me wonder if it's even possible to have a friendly game of fantasy.

The HE would have no armor saves. The mortars wouldn't be nearly as powerful against WoC, however the cannon would.

2000 Volts wrote:If I wanted to be cheap with empire I would field 3 mortars, 2 cannons and a Helstorm Rocket Battery at 1000 points...

So you're saying instead of going 100% cheese you went 50% cheese and then when you got out-cheesed on the second turn, by a spell you saw him roll and said nothing about, you walked away despite the time it took to set-up and get together and such. There's all kinds of crazy cheese WoC and HE can field even at low points. They didn't field it either from what you said, except a random roll on a spell list. And then *gasp* actually casting it.

Getting your army, or teammate's army, iced and then quitting in a huff is extraordinarily bad play. If fantasy "feels uptight," that's a glowing example of it. Sorry for being blunt.

Do I think the mega spells are brutal and cheesy? Yes, absolutely. Especially in 1K point games. But say something before starting.

You saw him roll it. Did you expect him not to cast it?

Ya, well asking the EMpire not to bring artillery is like asking High Elves not to bring a mage. It's what the army does.

That said - Warriors of Chaos can win a game without crap like Purple Sun's. In fact, we math hammered out the combat between the warriors and ogres afterward - and the warriors of chaos beat the ogres 6-1.

ANd your telling me you would stay and play after 1400 of your 2000 point army was wiped in one spell? I highly doubt you would bother to waste your time.

Id have said good game and shook their hands. Wouldnt have stormed out. Just because they may have been bad sportsmen doesnt give you the right to be a bad sportsman

2000 Volts wrote:Ya, well asking the EMpire not to bring artillery is like asking High Elves not to bring a mage. It's what the army does.

Than why were you upset that that the mage actually accomplished something?

Polonius wrote:

2000 Volts wrote:Ya, well asking the EMpire not to bring artillery is like asking High Elves not to bring a mage. It's what the army does.

Than why were you upset that that the mage actually accomplished something?

Because he wants to be able to say that he's right in this situation.

Friendly games can be 'competetive' (not to the level of tournaments, but competetive nonetheless).
Whenever I play against my friends in friendly games, I do my best, and so does my opponent. In a friendly game, the only thing I do not consider allowed is getting mad. That really ruins the mood.
So when I'm losing big, I just say "Feth it", and keep playing like a derp, because if I'm gonna lose I'm gonna have fun in the process.

Dont' get me wrong, dropping a mega-kill in any friendly game is usually a bit gauche. It's worse in a wargame that has such a high time investment.

Even a lot of tournaments ban Purple Sun.

Still, I think the OP should take that as a lesson learned about what to discuss prior to a friendly.

2000 Volts wrote:

Using Purple Suns to me is about the most competitive unfriendly thing you can do

If you didnt say beforehand, you can't really complain, not everyone shares your view of this particular spell, im sure they had their own ideas of what was 'unfriendly' too, but trying to balance a game with 4 subjective, probably bias opinions is gonna end in boring vs boring

If the partnering and the opponents are random and the sorcerer was a death sorcerer befor the teams were even made as well as him getting purple sun with his guy then I think it should be all fair.

Seeing as a friendly game dosnt mean hey because you got lucky that makes it un friendly.

Some people complain about everything tho like the 2 mortar thing, so unless he decided on the spot that he was a death Mage then well the dice decided (I play ogres and that spell is ass) but hey it's a friendly game so oh well right.

Platuan4th wrote:

Polonius wrote:

2000 Volts wrote:Ya, well asking the EMpire not to bring artillery is like asking High Elves not to bring a mage. It's what the army does.

Than why were you upset that that the mage actually accomplished something?

Because he wants to be able to say that he's right in this situation.

A: Becuase it wasn't his mage - it was the Warriors of Chaos players' 2nd game ever and lore of death and purple sun's was specifically taken to kill the ogres.

B: I'm not the only one who agrees... and as is said above Purple Sun's is outright banned in a lot of tournament play. I personally hate that spell as I also play Tomb Kings and that spell will wipe a TK army in one fell swoop as well.
Now Here's the funny thing - Purple sun is banned in tourneys but I've never seen mortars banned... Hmmm... must be a line out there on what is friendly and what is competitive and what is broken. That said I have seen limitations but never outright banned artillery.

My point in the whole thing is at 1,000 Points I can quite literally run 3 mortars, a Hellstorm and 2 cannons with engineer. I don't pull that crap in friendly games because I want to actually play - I'll experiment with outriders, mages and different things. In this game skirmishing archers as a mage bunker was my new thing.


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But I do agree with those who said If nothing was said beforehand then it's shame on me

Well getting mad at someone for using a spell they got on a roll and storming out is incredibly bad sportsmanship. Your argument about how your mortar cheese isnt that cheesy because it hasnt been banned in a tournament is not really viable as it is still cheese. Also if it was the players second time playing WoC and he happened to get a good spell and used it can you fault him for testing something awesome out?

While I see how you feel youve been cheesed I have to say grow up. Also shame on you for storming out how do you think that guy who was just trying something he percieved to be cool out feels now? IF it were a seasoned player then yeah i could see the hey man WTF but seeing as its a newcomer dont you think you should give him some slack.

I am sure we disagree on this particulair subject matter but if I were a member of a game group and saw someone storm off because of what happened id pretty much tell the dude to get his stuff together or dont come back. Seeing as it was a new player id have just said hey while that spell is awesome deathness think maybe from now on we could avoid that one? Also if you were on turn two of a 2k game why not just re set up and have a nother go at it.

I truly feel that out of the situation you were the worst party. A new kid uses his shiny so you storm off like a spoiled teen because he got a lucky roll in his second ever game?


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Also why didnt you talk to the new comer about that spell? As id hope that during his second game people would be helping him and teaching him some decorum about how to play and what should be used in tournaments and what to avoid in casual pick me up games.

First off I;m not sure where the idea of storming off came from. I scooped - big difference.

And the WoC player wasn't palying his army - he had no clue what was going on. The High Elf player was playing the WoC army as well as his high elves - which he is notorious for doing - pairing up with the newest people and building their army list to best suit the High Elves.

In this battle all the WoC player did was roll the dice becuase the High Elf player told him to.


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And the High Elf player is the most experienced player in our club - he knows better than to bring cheese to a friendly learning game. And especailly for targeting the Ogre Kingdoms player, who was playing his 4th game, with such crap as Purple Sun

Well in that case things are different i didnt see that mentioned anywherer though may just me bieng over tired lol. Maybe you should pull the new guy over and teach him more about his army and how to play it casualy and maybe even try to toss together a little league to really help him get the feel. I am sorry for my rude post I didnt even realize how much of a prick i came off as till just now. SO im sorry for that but i certainly think this new player could use some good guidance and if this elf dude is doing this maybe itd be best to avoid playing with him or maybe try nand keep new guy with someone else till he gets the ropes rather than gets to play puppet.

2000 Volts wrote:First off I;m not sure where the idea of storming off came from. I scooped - big difference.

And the WoC player wasn't palying his army - he had no clue what was going on. The High Elf player was playing the WoC army as well as his high elves - which he is notorious for doing - pairing up with the newest people and building their army list to best suit the High Elves.

In this battle all the WoC player did was roll the dice becuase the High Elf player told him to.


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And the High Elf player is the most experienced player in our club - he knows better than to bring cheese to a friendly learning game. And especailly for targeting the Ogre Kingdoms player, who was playing his 4th game, with such crap as Purple Sun

If that's the case and the HE player is known for being a little d-bag, then your options are clear;
a) Talk to the shop owner/manager. Tell them what's been going on and how it's ruining things for everyone else. If they actually care about your continued buisness, they'll be receptive to yours & others ideas about controlling this git.

b) Take the HE player aside wit hthe other vets. Tell him unless he stops being a complete tool and abusing the new players to roflstomp everyone else, none of you will ever give him a game again.
Tell him you'll also give a clear heads-up to the newer players to avoid playing with/against him as he's not even trying to help them grow their hobby and improve. (if he *really* wants a 'puppet' to play with, tell him WoC have such an item in their book!)
Inform the store owner/manager you've done this and that if the HE player continues to be a dick, you guys are going to actively exclude him from the group because of these reasons.

c) Stick to your guns! As long as you get all the other players in agreement, either this guy will change his ways and be friendlier and start actually helping newer player out by teaching them tactics and the finer points of the rules, or else he's going to have no one who'll play against him!



When I worked at the local GW store before it closed, we actively enforced rules of conduct for everyone to follow because we had a similar problem of a few d-bags coming in on open nights and trolling weaker players & beginners with their fine-tuned and highly ruthless tournament lists.
We laid down the law on them, warned others, especially newer young player about these morons, and then acted if we caught them being complete a-hats.

In then end, a couple of these guys did change and became respected members of our store's gaming community.
The rest moaned and whined and called us names and sulked off to go be jerks somewhere else.

I got into this hobby as a way to have some 'competitive fun', not act like I'm back playing Migit AA girls hockey in the provincial championships!!!

First off LOL at the miget AA girls hockey! love the analogy.

I have a strict fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me policy. This is the second game the HE player has taken a noob as a partner, kitted out the noobs list and played his army.

Admittantly I am the opposite - I will play with a noob as a partner but I have very little patience for someone who doesnt know their own army book. I rarely tell them how to run their armies, just warning as to what my plans are. I know I could be more helpful but im of the oppinion the guys who work at the shop should be the ones teaching the new guys how to play and tutoring them. After all they are the ones who will make the money off a sale.

See I was just figuring I would not be friendly vs. the HE player anymore. I won't run off the cuff lists with 3 units of muskets and 3 units of outriders - or a bunch of crazed fanatics and other infantry - for the fun of it. From what I've seen in other Empire lists I feel my artillery is light - and I don't often run an engineer. If I miss I miss so be it (and I'm usualy trying otu other models)

See I;ve been playing Tomb Kings and only just got into The Emprie about a month ago - and have only played under a dozen games. I'm still feeling the army out and what they can do.

And yes, I agree Mortars are powerful. I agree with most other people that their points should be boosted to 90 or 100. However what else does the empire have if not artillery?

Well, lots of big blocks of halberds - but sadly I Don't own the models.

*</rambling>*


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I'd be curious to hear what the guidelines your shop had for "friendly" games. That is - what spells are off limits and what units are off limits? I know it's terrible form to max out cannons/mortars in empire - but where do you draw the line. In some of my lists I run 2 and 2 at 2K with no rocket batteries or hellblasters.

Our WHFB club is VERY new - in fact our FLGS only just got the GW line into the shop in July. I'd run the 40K club and it was a lot of fun! But the shop owner and a few others kind of pushed Fantasy and when I got into the swing of it 40K fell to the side. In fact, I was just talking to another of the players and we're going to devote tuesdays to 40K again - partly becuase we just don't have these issues with that game... the cheese lists or constant speedbumps while rules are looked up in the BRB.

Well if its newly aquired the store staff may be less versed than the new player as hes actualy played a few games lol.

2000 Volts wrote:First off LOL at the miget AA girls hockey! love the analogy.

Why thank-you! I am Canadian afterall.
If you really want to see pure nastiness, you should try being the on-ice offical working Migit house league where all the players go to different schools and hate eachother to the point you need an extra game sheet to record all the penalites! (and you got curfewed with 8+ minutes still left to play!)

Warhammer is purely tame by comparison!

2000 Volts wrote:I'd be curious to hear what the guidelines your shop had for "friendly" games. That is - what spells are off limits and what units are off limits? I know it's terrible form to max out cannons/mortars in empire - but where do you draw the line. In some of my lists I run 2 and 2 at 2K with no rocket batteries or hellblasters.

Our WHFB club is VERY new - in fact our FLGS only just got the GW line into the shop in July. I'd run the 40K club and it was a lot of fun! But the shop owner and a few others kind of pushed Fantasy and when I got into the swing of it 40K fell to the side. In fact, I was just talking to another of the players and we're going to devote tuesdays to 40K again - partly becuase we just don't have these issues with that game... the cheese lists or constant speedbumps while rules are looked up in the BRB.

Our store rules were very simple;
- All models must be GW and/or FW models. You may use FW rules, but only with your opponent's concent. If you're going to bring FW rules, be sure to bring a back-up army list in case your opponent refuses! (obvious considering we were a GW store!)

- If an army is a 'work in progress', progress must be shown after no more than 1 month. (Basically, get off yer lazy backside and put some paint to those models that have been sitting primed black for the last year!)

- You must bring ALL required gaming aids with you - rulebook, army book/codex, measuring tape, templates, dice, etc... If your opponent doesn't bring their army book/codex, you can't argue a rule - you must accept what they tell you! (the best way to out the d-bags because after 2-3 games of silliness that sounds too good to be true, no one will play them untill they bring those rules to back-up their claims!)

- You must have a pre-made army list ready to go when you ask for/accept a game. If you have to write one out, your opponent has every right to refuse the game and serves you right for not being prepared! (the best way to curtail list tailoring)

- You may ask a staff member to rule on a dice roll/rules question, however the staff member's ruling is final! Otherwise, 4+ any disputes.

- You must conduct yourself at all times in a sporting and 'Disney PG' manner. Anyone acting in a disrespectful manner to an opponent/staff member/other hobbiests will be asked to pack-up and leave.
Any swearing and you're out the door - NO EXCEPTIONS! (the last one was a real kicker, because when I started working our store had a reputation for being a terrible environment for children so we really went hard-core against the rampent swearing)

- In all games the loudest Waaaaagh! goes first! If you don't even try you may not roll to sieze the initiative! (because we're nerds and it's damn good fun, plus it p'ed-off all the elitiest b***h-stores around us! )

For me, a friendly game is "only" bringing one Hydra with my Dark Elves