Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've read somewhere on this forum that a guardsmen may never see a SM. If that is the case, then wouldn't an imperial citizen, who would never have left his world or city, be able to tell the difference between traitors and loyalists? They would not have the same training as the IG in dealing with enemies of humanity, so would it be possible for a CSM to pose as a loyalist marine and get civilians to work for him?

Depends on the Chaos Faction.

Alpha Legion: Yes.

World Eaters: NOPE.

Night Lords: Maybe.

Plague Marines: Yeahno.

Everyone else besides AL: Nope!

Chowderhead wrote:Depends on the Chaos Faction.

Alpha Legion: Yes.

World Eaters: NOPE.

Night Lords: Maybe.

Plague Marines: Yeahno.

Everyone else besides AL: Nope!

So..basically the only CSM who can think beyond "KILL EVERYONE FOR FUNZIES!" would be Alpha Legion and possibly Night Lords then?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Depends on the Chaos Faction.

Alpha Legion: Yes.

World Eaters: NOPE.

Night Lords: Maybe.

Plague Marines: Yeahno.

Everyone else besides AL: Nope!

So..basically the only CSM who can think beyond "KILL EVERYONE FOR FUNZIES!" would be Alpha Legion and possibly Night Lords then?

The night legion would just sneak in.
They wouldn't be seen.

I really doubt it, unless the world is a Space Marine homeworld. To the average Imperial, the Astartes are the things are legend and though they are common "knowledge" they are surrounded in mystery and lore. Few Imperials ever lay eyes on an Astartes, those who do often find them terrifying, and they're not going to know the ascetic differences between the two factions.

A baby with no concept of life could tell a traitor marine from a regular marine.

Traitor: *all decked out in spikes* HHAHAHAHAHAA!! SANITY IS FOR THE WEAK!!!!!
Loyal: *candy-coloured and noble* Purge the enemies of man
Citizen: *looking between them and scratching his chin* Hmmmm....

One big give away is whether they are covered in purity seals and aquilas or mutations and foul chaos symbols. I think even a citizen could work that one out.

Dunwich wrote:One big give away is whether they are covered in purity seals and aquilas or mutations and foul chaos symbols. I think even a citizen could work that one out.

This.

A lot of Chaos Marines also seem to have an issue with their temper. Dunno if they could keep their mouth shut when faced with statues of Imperial Saints or greeted with "Praise the Emperor" by the people. Might just be something affecting the "older" CSMs tho, probably depends a lot on how much their sanity was corrupted over the years.

Harriticus wrote:Few Imperials ever lay eyes on an Astartes, [...]

Whilst that is certainly true, I think they might play a big role in propaganda. They are, after all, the Emperor's Angels of Death and His spiritual children. Statues or stylized images in various books could give the citizenry enough material to draw a comparison from.

On the other hand, it could just as well be that the Ecclesiarchy - often the only source of such knowledge for the common people - is actively attempting to downplay the Marines' roles in the Imperium due to the strained relationship between both Adepta ...

Chowderhead wrote:Depends on the Chaos Faction.

Alpha Legion: Yes.

World Eaters: NOPE.

Night Lords: Maybe.

Plague Marines: Yeahno.

Everyone else besides AL: Nope!

Also an Iron Warrior may pass for a loyalist.

I think it really depends on the chapter and on the specific marines. Even if most imperial citizens don't know the nature of chaos and traitor marines, I'm sure they would recognize loyal SM by all the symbols they carry. (I assume all the imperial symbols are pretty much known to everybody in the Imperium). And to recognize a chaos marines shouldn't be too hard since they constantly yell "Death to da false emparaaaaaah!". That and maybe the citizens know some chaos-y stuff and go "that can't be good". ... Oh and IIRC there was some mentioning in some of the Gaunt's Ghosts books that looking at some chaos symbols and hearing certain chaos words makes people feel really uncomfortable so that might help.

In the end, I think if it's an Ultramarine who shines with fluffy goodness people will understand and if a Word Bearer stands in front of them hollering about chaos they will know what's up. If an imperial citizen finds himself in front of a World Eaters Berserker and a Blood Angel, then he'd better run very very very fast.

BL novel. Lord of Night.

Imperial Citizens aren't even told Chaos Marines exist. The thought would be heretical.

There have been multiple cases of Chaos Marines(particularly Alpha Legion or Fallen Dark Angels) who will take advantage of the regular Imperial people not knowing the Traitors exist.

If they were attacking, yeah they could tell the difference, but if they just walked up and said "Hi, my name is Xenox of the, uuuh, 'Alpha marines' and we could use some supplies" they would take them at their word.

Most Imperial citizens probably know that the mark of chaos is their enemy.

That said, any renegade or traitor that spent 5 minutes covering up all his chaos iconography would probably have zero problems convincing the average Imperial that he was loyalist.

No, the Imperium doesn't show its citizens what Chaos looks like. They don't know what the symbols are because that very knowledge can lead to corruption.

yeah, I'm pretty sure in the daemonhunter's codex in mentions that the average human has no idea chaos even exists, so I doubt they'd think of him as anything other than a scary space marine. and since space marines in general are pretty scary to the average human, I doubt they'd realize anything foul was afoot.

Imperial citizen #1: Do you know the difference between a loyal marine and a traitor marine?

Imperial citizen #2: Sure! One is a bloodthirsty killing machine, covered in skulls and symbols of death. And the other is the traitor marine.

The fluff is full of examples of how Chaos is kept secret. In the Battle for Armageddon; any Imperials who even thought they saw the forces of Chaos were killed, and even the SM's mind wiped.
The Alpha Legion still uses "For the Emperor" as their battle cry to cause confusion, and to make the Imperials think they've been betrayed.
In the book "Tales from the Dark Millennium" a Chaos Cult infects a planet, and the Arbites, and population have no idea it's Chaos, even after seeing the star logo. The IG only finds out its Chaos when the DA show up, and inform them.

^ That

Flesh-Tearer dropship lands on your world.

Bunch of screaming, fanged, blood-crazed guys in gore and black armour, with a rotary-saw blade symbol and blood drop on the shoulder disembark, followed by a more ornately armoured guy with a chainsaw longer than a truck...

Civilian's first thought is not going to be 'our saviors have landed' so much as 'you know, the orks are a good deal less scary. I'm out of here....'

So long as they don't have mutations, then they can pass as loyalists

or as long as they dont start hacking away at the citizens

Lets out the Fleshtearers on both counts then.

They have fangs, and do so much collateral damage to any world they visit that the enemy would have been preferable

Ascalam wrote:Lets out the Fleshtearers on both counts then.

They have fangs, and do so much collateral damage to any world they visit that the enemy would have been preferable

Yeup! No one can tell the difference

Flesh Tearers = sanctioned world eaters

I think it's got to vary by which group of traitors/renegades you're talking about and what chapter. As has been pointed out, Fleshtearers, Blood Drinkers, and a lot of the BA and some (probably) Wolf successor chapters may be mistakable for CSM even by Commisar trainees in the IG. AL, Iron Warriors, and probably no small number of Sorcerors from a lot of war bands can probably pass as loyalists pretty readily and are smart and tempered enough to not spout off to break their own disguise. Then there are the weird renegades, like the Fallen, who may not even WEAR chaos markings, just archaic power armor that may or may not have their acquilla removed (they may not have had them in the first place anyway) and even Cypher still has the basic appearance of a DA in really old armor.

However, it's discussed all through the fluff that the Inquisition doesn't allow the citizenry to know that chaos exists, and certainly not that any of the Emperor's Angels of Death have fallen to it and turned on the IoM. Novels discuss entire IG units being wiped or even annihilated to keep that secret, and IIRC the current rule book mentions it as well.

ashrog wrote:Imperial citizen #1: Do you know the difference between a loyal marine and a traitor marine?

Imperial citizen #2: Sure! One is a bloodthirsty killing machine, covered in skulls and symbols of death. And the other is the traitor marine.

WIN. This is definitely going in my signature.

If the traitors aren't mutated, it may be hard to tell. What would give them away is spikes, mutations, or demeanor. Astartes tend to have a high and mighty attitude, so this would help hide them. Alpha legion would blend in no problem, Fallen no problem (unless the citizen has seen a DA before, as IIRC fallen still have the original legion paint scheme), iron warriors maybe, World eaters, emperor's children, and thousand sons no way, probably not, and with sorcery. The thousand sons have the advantage of having rubric marines and sorcery. Rubrics are souless, and people are probably not going to be surprised if a space marine ignores them.

Night lords would probably not bother walking in plain sight, just killing people sneakily to cause terror. The reason I feel that chaos marines other than the alpha legion, Fallen, and a few others will have trouble fitting in is because their weapons and armor probably have modifications which would set people on edge. The average citizen will notice the difference between the spiky armor and the armor they seen in pictures/statues.

BTNeophyte wrote:Fallen no problem (unless the citizen has seen a DA before, as IIRC fallen still have the original legion paint scheme),

Even that wouldn't help... at least 1 successor chapter (Relictors I think, don't have the book in front of me) regressed to a slight variation on the 1st Legion scheme. I'd really have to think that non-Astartes (and if the Fallen is being sneak, anybody who's not Unforgiven or Inquisition) would be pretty much out of luck in identifying one of the Fallen.

I would also like to say that I'm a bit of a DA fanboy, so I'm probably a little biased

Wouldnt A CSM be running and shooting at them? Just a thought

Traitor Marines can and do disguise themselves as Loyalist Marines. I'm not sure how frequent this is, but it occurs in multiple stories (see for instance "Liberation Day").

Lynata wrote:
Whilst that is certainly true, I think they might play a big role in propaganda. They are, after all, the Emperor's Angels of Death and His spiritual children. Statues or stylized images in various books could give the citizenry enough material to draw a comparison from.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Lots of planets probably have statues of space marines. Images of space marines killing monsters, space marines brandishing bolters, space marines cradled in the Emperor's hands, and so on probably adorn cathedrals, possibly even in stained glass. Don't forget, this is a science-fantasy-gothic setting. Most Imperial Citizens are used to the "basic" look of a loyal space marine: the smooth armor, the aquilla, and so on.

However, I'd agree that the average Imperial citizen could make a mistake with marines who defy their expectations Space Wolves and possibly Dark Angels - with their barbaric symbols and cowled helmets, respectively - probably get mistaken for traitors with some regularity. Those traitor marines that look more "normal" - I don't know which traitor legions and renegades fall into this category - could be mistaken for loyalists.

Lynata wrote:
A lot of Chaos Marines also seem to have an issue with their temper. Dunno if they could keep their mouth shut when faced with statues of Imperial Saints or greeted with "Praise the Emperor" by the people. Might just be something affecting the "older" CSMs tho, probably depends a lot on how much their sanity was corrupted over the years.

I am going with this. Most Chaos Space Marines are raging lunatics, they would first strike down population and then ask: do you think I am loyal or not?
Alpha Legion could pass as loyal Marines, they are the only ones beside Black Legion and Word Bearers that have kept some sing of sanity.
World Eaters would kill all of the civilians, Death Guard would kill them with their stench, Thousand Sons don't look like standard Marines anymore, Emperor;s Children look like Daemons now, Night Lords look like mix of Batmen and Death, Red Corsairs would also first attack and then ask questions.

And as people stated here - loyal citizens of the Imperium don't even know that Chaos exist and wit hit the traitor Marines. If people took notice at 40k lore in the last year it doesn't say that the Emperor is mortally wounded in battle and near death. But that he finished his conquest and return to Terra to rule. So ordinary people don't even know about Horus Heresy.

All in all - Imperial citizens could only recognize some traitor Marines as loyalist. Others not so much, because of the spike armor, sculls attached to his belt red glowing eyes, Daemon mutations etc...