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I could see the Alpha Legion doing it then twisting the system's defenses to help fight off some other "traitors" leading to both loyalist forces killing each other off. Except the PDF, they'd be a shield for them at best.

Certainly the sane ones could. None of the mono-god legions could though. They're all either insane, diseased or automatons.

Most likely not. They cannot even recognise Guardsmen. In the novel Dead men walking, imperial citisens confuse the Death Korps grenadiers for Necrons.

Night lords, alpha legion and maybe some clever Iron warriors would be able to pass for loyalist marines. like 99% of Imperial citizens have no clue what Chaos is....so as long as they're not running at them screaming "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD", they would be able to pass for loyalists.

From the GK books

]

bombboy1252 wrote:Night lords, alpha legion and maybe some clever Iron warriors would be able to pass for loyalist marines. like 99% of Imperial citizens have no clue what Chaos is....so as long as they're not running at them screaming "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD", they would be able to pass for loyalists.

Yeah, and if they do scream that, everyone will just assume they're Grey Knights.

In traitors hand cain had to explain the differences of chaos to higher up commanders of the army. But also in the same book a simple officer knows chaos when they see it.
Here is the difference. Chaos marines are trying to kill you. Regular marines are looking for an excuse to kill you.

Not likely, no. The Horus Heresy is shrouded in mystery and most citizens aren't aware that the Primarchs and Legions split from the Imperium.

All that's commonly known is that Horus fell... and asking too many questions is not a good idea or widely accepted.

Some planets are raised to recruit or provide for Traitor Legions and may not even know that the sky warriors are 'evil'.

Plus, in one Grey Knights novel, a renegade inquisitor convinces a planet and its Sisters of Battle protectors that the Grey Knights chasing him are Chaos Marines. They have no way of knowing....

ashrog wrote:Imperial citizen #1: Do you know the difference between a loyal marine and a traitor marine?

Imperial citizen #2: What's a traitor marine?

That's how it'd actually go.

There are traitor marines that are obviously traitors, loyalist marines that are fairly obviously loyalist, and plenty of marines on either side than an ignorant peasant could make a mistake on.

It may depend on the world. The Imperium tries to suppress information as much as it can (especially the Inquisition) but like with most things the success will vary from region to region (They're not perfect, and the nature of the warp and the Imperium itself make broad, large-scale continuous cooperation difficult.) It's quite possible to have worlds where the populace is totally ignorant of things except what propoganda tells them (and thus not knowing the difference between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines) whilst another world might have some inkling that there are 'bad' marines - We know renegade chapters and traitor legions attack worlds, and you can't mind wipe or obliterate every planet they strike or raid (not if you want to keep the Imperium.) More likely they rely on the general ignorance and propoganda/misinformation to divert attention from their existence (EG they know there is some sort of power armoued chaos forces that exist, or maybe they're corrupt servitors - but they aren't told they are Space Marines.) I mean I can recall that in some regions or cases Horus is treated as being a literal devil-figure (it could be that they keep the Horus name but hide the fact he is a primarch from the generla masses, for example.) Kinda the same thing as with Chaos I suspect - some places 'kind of'know it exists, but in a nebulous sort of way filtered through layers of propoganda.

In the blood gorgon novel, the natives of one of their recruiting worlds referred to the gorgons as gods, and being more of a backwater world, didn't even know what space marines existed nor did they worship the emperor.


So for non-imperials obviously the answer is yes
For more barbaric imperials I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be able to tell the difference
And as more advanced as you get the more they would notice. But not by much, but i'm sure they would notice the difference between the ones shouting profanities against the emperor while summoning demons, and ones who spout spacemarine stuff

If they had spikes and radiated the influence of chaos and had defiled armour and had blood frothing out of their mouth grille I know just about anyone could tell.

If they are like the marines malevolent siding with traitors but having their armour still that of a loyalist? Almost definitely not.

I've never seen a whale but I could probably tell if it was a chaos worshipper.

Joey wrote:I've never seen a whale but I could probably tell if it was a chaos worshipper.

Someone more familiar than I with photoshop needs to GET ON THIS!

im2randomghgh wrote:If they had spikes and radiated the influence of chaos and had defiled armour and had blood frothing out of their mouth grille know just about anyone could tell. .

Flesh tearers?

bombboy1252 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:If they had spikes and radiated the influence of chaos and had defiled armour and had blood frothing out of their mouth grille I know just about anyone could tell. .

Flesh tearers?

Well flesh tearers only have 2/4 so...

im2randomghgh wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:If they had spikes and radiated the influence of chaos and had defiled armour and had blood frothing out of their mouth grille I know just about anyone could tell. .

Flesh tearers?

Well flesh tearers only have 2/4 so...

Close enough

BTNeophyte wrote:

ashrog wrote:

Night lords would probably not bother walking in plain sight, just killing people sneakily to cause terror. The reason I feel that chaos marines other than the alpha legion, Fallen, and a few others will have trouble fitting in is because their weapons and armor probably have modifications which would set people on edge. The average citizen will notice the difference between the spiky armor and the armor they seen in pictures/statues.

Lord of Night

So you're an Imperial citizen going about your day. Suddenly, the sky starts raining fire, and everything begins to explode. Running in a panic from the street, you manage to bunker down while your city is reduced to smoking rubble over the course of two hours of constant explosions. You look out, and see a few shell-shocked survivors wandering in the ruins.

Before the smoke's cleared, you start hearing shooting from what's left of the street. Anyone out is gunned down by a small cadre of eight-foot monsters in giant metal armor and strange, morbid iconography. Anyone who tries to fight back, their shots deflect off the armor harmlessly before they're gunned down like dogs. You duck back into the corner and desperately hope that they don't notice you.

Are they loyalists or chaos marines?

Loyalists.

Chaos marines wouldn't have left enough of the city to play dominos with, let alone survivors..



(or alternatively - who the frack cares... lets get the feth out of here ..*runs off* )

Arturius wrote:So you're an Imperial citizen going about your day. Suddenly, the sky starts raining fire, and everything begins to explode. Running in a panic from the street, you manage to bunker down while your city is reduced to smoking rubble over the course of two hours of constant explosions. You look out, and see a few shell-shocked survivors wandering in the ruins.

Before the smoke's cleared, you start hearing shooting from what's left of the street. Anyone out is gunned down by a small cadre of eight-foot monsters in giant metal armor and strange, morbid iconography. Anyone who tries to fight back, their shots deflect off the armor harmlessly before they're gunned down like dogs. You duck back into the corner and desperately hope that they don't notice you.

Are they loyalists or chaos marines?

Very nice. Thats how I picture them already hah.

Joey wrote:I've never seen a whale but I could probably tell if it was a chaos worshipper.

But could you tell if it were a pownvoeiwtnwern?

The point being that your average citizen doesn't know what a chaos, traitor marines, or a chaos worshiper, is.

Lord.Serpius wrote:

Arturius wrote:So you're an Imperial citizen going about your day. Suddenly, the sky starts raining fire, and everything begins to explode. Running in a panic from the street, you manage to bunker down while your city is reduced to smoking rubble over the course of two hours of constant explosions. You look out, and see a few shell-shocked survivors wandering in the ruins.

Before the smoke's cleared, you start hearing shooting from what's left of the street. Anyone out is gunned down by a small cadre of eight-foot monsters in giant metal armor and strange, morbid iconography. Anyone who tries to fight back, their shots deflect off the armor harmlessly before they're gunned down like dogs. You duck back into the corner and desperately hope that they don't notice you.

Are they loyalists or chaos marines?

Very nice. Thats how I picture them already hah.

You know, Grimdarkness aside, not all Space Marines chapters like to gun down civilians "just in case." A few of them, sure - Black Templars, Flesh Tearers or even ordinary Blood Angels if too many of them lose it, Space Wolves when they're drunk - but lots of them try to be genuinely heroic. Ultramarines, Blood Angels when they don't go crazy, and Space Wolves when they're sober, for example.

Ascalam wrote:

(or alternatively - who the frack cares... lets get the feth out of here ..*runs off* )

^ Well put

Joey wrote:I've never seen a whale but I could probably tell if it was a chaos worshipper.

Well, a new excuse for all whale hunters.
"You cannot kill these whales! They're a delicate part of the ecosystem!"
"But, ma'am, they're servants of Slaanesh, the Prince of Pleasure! Of course we have to kill them!"
On topic, though: I would imagine that there are plenty of Imperial Worlds who have never seen these magnificent angels of death, swooping down from the skies and destroying the enemies of man. As long as they weren't actively killing civilians on sight, and didn't have foot-long horns sticking from their heads, then I suppose a Traitor Marine could pass easily for his Loyal brethren.

Traitor: *all decked out in spikes* HHAHAHAHAHAA!! SANITY IS FOR THE WEAK!!!!!
Loyal: *candy-coloured and noble* Purge the enemies of man
Citizen: *looking between them and scratching his chin* Hmmmm....

LOL

Durza wrote:Certainly the sane ones could. None of the mono-god legions could though. They're all either insane, diseased or automatons.

You covered Khorne, Nurgle & Tzeentch there, but not Slaanesh. Emperor's Children could, potentially, pass as loyalists - first of all, their name; Considering Imperial citizens know only about their God-Emperor through the Ecclesiarchy, having the 'Emperor's Children' turn up sounds rather good, does it not? However, EC would probably try and jolly the populace along to start enjoying each and every sensation to newer and greater heights or to strive towards absolute perfection in everything. I do love Slaanesh.

"My Lord, I bring news." (Taken from 40konline.com, not sure of the actual origin)

Typhus Marburg paused in his study of the situation map of the dreary little planet his forces were engaged in ravaging.

"Yes?"

"Lord. Starships have appeared in the outer system and are on course for a landing. They have been identified as elements of the Flesh Tearers."

"Yeah? Tell them to sod off and find their own world. Tell 'em we got here first."

"Sire, you misunderstand. They are here to defend this world!"

"What! Why? It's a sorry state of affairs when the followers of Chaos start to defend the weakling Imperium from each other!"

"Um, Lord... the Flesh Tearers are a loyalist chapter."

"They are? With a name like that! Are you sure they're not one of ours?"

"Positive, My Lord."

"Have you been able to call for any assistance?"

"The Astropaths have contacted other forces nearby. Unfortunately this has also alerted other loyalist forces in the sector and they are also headed our way."

"Bugger. So who gets here first then?"

"The Alpha Legion, sire."

"It never rains, it only pours, hey?"

"Umm..."

"What!"

"The Alpha Legion is one of ours."

"It is?!"

"Yes."

"I'm confused. You're telling me that a mob called the 'Flesh Tearers' isn't one of ours but a mob called the - what was it again..."

"The Alpha Legion, sire."

"Right... a mob called the Alpha Legion is one of ours."

"That is correct, sire."

"So who else is showing up to this barney then?"

"The Blood Drinkers."

"One of ours?"

"One of theirs."

"OK."

"The Iron Warriors."

"One of theirs?"

"No. One of ours."

"Go figure."

"The Dark Angels."

"Now I've heard of them. Followers of Slaanesh aren't they?"

"No, I think you're thinking of The Fallen, sire. The Dark Angels are Loyalists too."

"Bugger. So who else then?"

"The Emperor's Children."

"Oh, that one's too easy. They're obviously loyalists with a name like that."

"Um, not exactly my Lord."

"Really?"

"Yes, Lord. They're one of ours too."

"This is silly. All the really evil sounding names are being used by weakling loyalists while it seems as though the forces of chaos have got the naff monikers. Are there any more of these I should know about?"

"A few, Lord."

"OK then, spell it out for me, starting with Loyalists that sound like traitors and then moving onto traitors that sound like Loyalists."

"I will attempt to do so, Lord. OK - the Loyalists that sound like traitors... the Marauders, Rampagers, Destroyers and Storm Lords (all White Scar second foundings in point of fact)."

"I like the sound of the Storm Lords. You sure they aren't one of ours?"

"Quite sure. Then there's the Blood Drinkers and the Flesh Tearers - both of which are Loyalist second founding of the Blood Angels."

"With names like that I'd always assumed they were more bone headed followers of the blood god."

"Not so far, My Lord. Then there's the Red Talons..."

"I thought they were renegade pirates."

"No Lord, that's the Red Corsairs."

"Oh. OK. Continue."

"The Brazen Claws are loyalists too."

"Good name for a Khornate force though isn't it?"

"Yes Lord. Then there's the Black Guard (not to be confused with the Black Legion which IS one of ours), the Revilers, and the Raptors."

"Hold on a minute! The Raptors? They're definitely ours. Hell we've got a small unit of them attached to our forces haven't we?"

"My Lord, those are the troops known as Raptors but there is also a loyalist legion with the same name."

"Must get a bit confusing for the loyalists then?"

"I imagine so, My Lord. There are also the Doom Eagles, the Silver Skulls, and the Iron Hands (not to be mistaken for the Iron Warriors, who are ours)."

"Bloody hell. Is that it?"

"There are also some lesser known chapters that also seem to cause occasional confusion."

"Such as..."

"The Doomfarers are one that our forces have occasionally encountered."

"Oh yeah. Those yoyos. So what about the Chaos forces that sound like loyalists then..."

"Well as mentioned earlier there are The Emperor's Children, The Iron Warriors, the Thousand Sons, the Lunar Wolves (who changed their name to the Sons of Horus and then to the Black Legion)..."

"Well at least they're easily IDed as one of ours now. The Black Legion eh? Now that's a proper name. Just postively oozes evil from every pore."

"Yes, Lord. To continue, there are also the Word Bearers, and the Alpha Legion."

"The Word Bearers? What kind of silly name is that for a Chaos Legion?"

"They used to be missionaries sire"

"We you'd think that once they switched to our side they'd change their name to something a little more in keeping with being evil mad men. I mean come on 'The Word Bearers'? It's a silly name."

"Yes my Lord"

"You know, I think the forces of Chaos should have proper Chaos names. There's no room for mistakes when you're called something like 'The World Eaters' or 'The Death Guard'..."

"Actually Lord, both those chapters had those names when they were loyalists."

"You're kidding."

"No, My Lord."

"Yeesh. I would have thought names like that would be a bit scary for the average imperial citizen. I mean "Yay we're being rescued by the World Eaters" just doesn't sound credible while "Aargh! Flee! It's the World Eaters" seems much more likely."

"Yes, My Lord. I believe the latter is more likely these days anyway."

"Makes no bloody sense at all."

"Yes, My Lord."

"Kill 'em all and let the Chaos Gods sort 'em out I say."

"Sounds like a completely reasonable approach to me, My Lord."

Miraclefish wrote:"My Lord, I bring news." (Taken from 40konline.com, not sure of the actual origin)

Typhus Marburg paused in his study of the situation map of the dreary little planet his forces were engaged in ravaging.

"Yes?"

"Lord. Starships have appeared in the outer system and are on course for a landing. They have been identified as elements of the Flesh Tearers."

"Yeah? Tell them to sod off and find their own world. Tell 'em we got here first."

"Sire, you misunderstand. They are here to defend this world!"

"What! Why? It's a sorry state of affairs when the followers of Chaos start to defend the weakling Imperium from each other!"

"Um, Lord... the Flesh Tearers are a loyalist chapter."

"They are? With a name like that! Are you sure they're not one of ours?"

"Positive, My Lord."

"Have you been able to call for any assistance?"

"The Astropaths have contacted other forces nearby. Unfortunately this has also alerted other loyalist forces in the sector and they are also headed our way."

"Bugger. So who gets here first then?"

"The Alpha Legion, sire."

"It never rains, it only pours, hey?"

"Umm..."

"What!"

"The Alpha Legion is one of ours."

"It is?!"

"Yes."

"I'm confused. You're telling me that a mob called the 'Flesh Tearers' isn't one of ours but a mob called the - what was it again..."

"The Alpha Legion, sire."

"Right... a mob called the Alpha Legion is one of ours."

"That is correct, sire."

"So who else is showing up to this barney then?"

"The Blood Drinkers."

"One of ours?"

"One of theirs."

"OK."

"The Iron Warriors."

"One of theirs?"

"No. One of ours."

"Go figure."

"The Dark Angels."

"Now I've heard of them. Followers of Slaanesh aren't they?"

"No, I think you're thinking of The Fallen, sire. The Dark Angels are Loyalists too."

"Bugger. So who else then?"

"The Emperor's Children."

"Oh, that one's too easy. They're obviously loyalists with a name like that."

"Um, not exactly my Lord."

"Really?"

"Yes, Lord. They're one of ours too."

"This is silly. All the really evil sounding names are being used by weakling loyalists while it seems as though the forces of chaos have got the naff monikers. Are there any more of these I should know about?"

"A few, Lord."

"OK then, spell it out for me, starting with Loyalists that sound like traitors and then moving onto traitors that sound like Loyalists."

"I will attempt to do so, Lord. OK - the Loyalists that sound like traitors... the Marauders, Rampagers, Destroyers and Storm Lords (all White Scar second foundings in point of fact)."

"I like the sound of the Storm Lords. You sure they aren't one of ours?"

"Quite sure. Then there's the Blood Drinkers and the Flesh Tearers - both of which are Loyalist second founding of the Blood Angels."

"With names like that I'd always assumed they were more bone headed followers of the blood god."

"Not so far, My Lord. Then there's the Red Talons..."

"I thought they were renegade pirates."

"No Lord, that's the Red Corsairs."

"Oh. OK. Continue."

"The Brazen Claws are loyalists too."

"Good name for a Khornate force though isn't it?"

"Yes Lord. Then there's the Black Guard (not to be confused with the Black Legion which IS one of ours), the Revilers, and the Raptors."

"Hold on a minute! The Raptors? They're definitely ours. Hell we've got a small unit of them attached to our forces haven't we?"

"My Lord, those are the troops known as Raptors but there is also a loyalist legion with the same name."

"Must get a bit confusing for the loyalists then?"

"I imagine so, My Lord. There are also the Doom Eagles, the Silver Skulls, and the Iron Hands (not to be mistaken for the Iron Warriors, who are ours)."

"Bloody hell. Is that it?"

"There are also some lesser known chapters that also seem to cause occasional confusion."

"Such as..."

"The Doomfarers are one that our forces have occasionally encountered."

"Oh yeah. Those yoyos. So what about the Chaos forces that sound like loyalists then..."

"Well as mentioned earlier there are The Emperor's Children, The Iron Warriors, the Thousand Sons, the Lunar Wolves (who changed their name to the Sons of Horus and then to the Black Legion)..."

"Well at least they're easily IDed as one of ours now. The Black Legion eh? Now that's a proper name. Just postively oozes evil from every pore."

"Yes, Lord. To continue, there are also the Word Bearers, and the Alpha Legion."

"The Word Bearers? What kind of silly name is that for a Chaos Legion?"

"They used to be missionaries sire"

"We you'd think that once they switched to our side they'd change their name to something a little more in keeping with being evil mad men. I mean come on 'The Word Bearers'? It's a silly name."

"Yes my Lord"

"You know, I think the forces of Chaos should have proper Chaos names. There's no room for mistakes when you're called something like 'The World Eaters' or 'The Death Guard'..."

"Actually Lord, both those chapters had those names when they were loyalists."

"You're kidding."

"No, My Lord."

"Yeesh. I would have thought names like that would be a bit scary for the average imperial citizen. I mean "Yay we're being rescued by the World Eaters" just doesn't sound credible while "Aargh! Flee! It's the World Eaters" seems much more likely."

"Yes, My Lord. I believe the latter is more likely these days anyway."

"Makes no bloody sense at all."

"Yes, My Lord."

"Kill 'em all and let the Chaos Gods sort 'em out I say."

"Sounds like a completely reasonable approach to me, My Lord."

LOL!
That sounds like something Terry Pratchett would write.