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im having a particularly hard time fighting off a demon player at my flgs, and i was wondering what are some things that could help me do better or possibly win?

his list generaly has plauge bearers and some khorne chariots in his first wave to tie up my broadsides and suits in cc.
followed by his demon prince, riders of khorne, and defiler to finish me up in cc.

first round i can generaly knock some guys out but the plauge bearers Fnp is really killing me

thanks for any help

Uh oh, FNP and fast assaulty things. That's bad medicine for Tau. Don't have much experience against Daemons, I can only give bit generic advice. Don't castle up *too* tight, you have no room for maneuver and enemy gets to multi-assault your fragile and expensive units. Bubblewrap with Kroot and Drones and try to make sure he can only assault one unit a time. Daemon DS is pretty random, see if you can deploy so that he's forced to avoid DS'ing into terrain. Grab objective with a ScoreFish.

Its probably the only time you have to spread out your tau forces, the best way of playing with daemons is to take risks with your DS so just make sure he can not multi-assault and that his entire wave can't wipe out your whole army, I'd also focus on blowing up the big things leave the plaguebearers for a time, 4+++ will fail sooner or later so put your big guns into them.

Our local tau player also says that against daemons if you go second put everything in reserve then he can't hurt you and his army will be there before yours

You actually want to go second against daemons. If the daemon player goes second there is one less round of shooting he has to endure. If you are playing DoW then walk everything on first turn.

As as been said bubble wrap your units, and spread out. If he has a unit of blood crushers you may want to feed it a unit of kroot to tie it up for a turn or two while you shoot everything else and/or move away. Do not try this with units of lesser daemons or fiends as they will probably wipe your squad in one turn.

*edit*
For the most part ignore PB's unless you need to get them off of an objective. They are slow and not very killy, but they will tie you up for a long time if they into combat.

PB, Chariots and Crushers are exceptionally slow. If he is bringing a list like that you are going to be able to run away from him indefinitely with your suits.

I would always go second against his army and I would for sure DoW reserve when possible.

Also, be sure to leave yourself some space to move backward, you can spread out enough that you can make that 6" move toward your board edge and escape from these really slow units.

A Tau army should be able to wreck a slow Daemon army unless it is truly maxed out with Fateweaver and 24 Crushers.

Certainly keep your stuff spread out. Also, bubble wrap everything. Drones and kroot work great for that. Don't forget about using the drones off of vehicles if you dont have the slots for it. One think you can do is make sure not to get assaulted toward other vulnerable units. Example... if he assaults 12" that will be the best movement gain he can get on you and thus into your main force. Try to use your bubble wrap to move up and have him only assault a few inches instead of 12". Drones were designed to be destroyed and kroot don't know any better!

Bubble wrap Kroots will do the trick. It will protect the bulk of your forces. If you have 100 Kroots, you could create a penta-layer defense.

Everybody's advice above is spot on:
1. Bubble-wrap
2. all Reserves when going second
3. Spread out to avoid getting two or more of your units multi-assaulted, and tarpitted.

I'm starting to play daemons now. It doesn't sound like he's running anything highly mobile, like Seekers or Hounds.

Flechettes for vehicles is a good idea. Given that Ds need to assault 'em since there's too little shooting in a Daemon army (what kinda DP is he running?) . Make sure the HHs and d'fish move Cruising as often as possible.

Tailoring:
To dealing with FNP you could increase the AP2 and AP1 with Helios (FB/PR) suits. His army sounds slow, as noted above, so FB's closer range might not be a liability. A careful management of JSJ should bring a helios suit just within FB range, so you'll have a wound that ignores FNP. And then JSJ beyond 12", and thus, not getting assaulted next Turn. It's risky.

If I were to tailor to a Daemon list that's continually kicking my teeth out, I'd go for volume, given crappy Saves. FireStorms.

Could ya give us a list of models you have available?

Brothererekose
Flechettes for vehicles is a good idea.

That is a great idea I forgot about! I have killed sooooo many low armor units with this. I highly reccomend it. You only have to kill one model to make it pay for itself.

Brothererekose wrote:
2. all Reserves when going second

No, you want to be on the field all at once. You want the daemons to have the first turn.

Situation 1: Tau get the first turn.
Tau turn 1: Everything stands around or shuffles a bit, nothing gets to shoot because there are no daemons on the board yet
Daemons turn 1: Damons land, do a bit a shooting, and maybe some run moves, but no charges.

Situation 2: Daemons get the first turn.
Daemons turn 1: Damons land, do a bit a shooting, and maybe some run moves, but no charges. (exactly the same as before)
Tau turn 1: You can move where needed to avoid charges next turn, get into cover, and shoot EVERYTHING!

Notice in situation 1 Tau basically forfeit an entire turn at what they do best. Putting things in reserve means that statistically the daemons will have more models/units on the board at you which is not what you want at all.

Go second, spread your units out, and focus. Put flechettes on vehicles, keep them moving, keep your units in transports, use the transports to block, infitrate kroot as a wall, use plasma and fusion on plague bearers if you really can't kill them, but you should be able too...

In cover, kroot always go first against anything but slanessh demons, so long as they charge you. Use this to your advantage. 280 points for 40 kroot is a good thing to have on the table.

Against demons, shoot more, don't try to fit in tons of high str stuff. markerlights can't hurt either.

ThatEdGuy wrote:

Brothererekose wrote:
2. all Reserves when going second

Notice in situation 1 Tau basically forfeit an entire turn at what they do best. Putting things in reserve means that statistically the daemons will have more models/units on the board at you which is not what you want at all.

*rethinks* ... Okay. Yes, I retract that.

I've been playing Dark Eldar for too long.

I have plenty of suits, two broadsides, two hammerheads/one sky ray, 4 devilfish, 48 FW, and the plauge bearers have toughness 5 so without rail guns I can't ignore his FnP.

Are their any special rules he's forgetting to tell me like with his plauge guys?

The first time we played he "forgot" to let me know that he couldn't do squat turn one and got into cc with most of my guys, so my trust isn't so strong, but I generally believe him on his rules. I justdont wanna be taken advantage of if it's on purpose


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Oh and 6 vespids, useless I know, and 20 Kroot I think. Haven't boughtn any because I though they sucked at first and didn't like their look

soundwave591 wrote:I have plenty of suits, two broadsides, two hammerheads/one sky ray, 4 devilfish, 48 FW, and the plauge bearers have toughness 5 so without rail guns I can't ignore his FnP.

Are their any special rules he's forgetting to tell me like with his plauge guys?

Plaguebearers have Slow & Purposeful, FnP, and poisoned weapons (4+), and S4 so they re-roll to wound anything T4 or less. One model per squad can be upgraded to poisoned (2+). They also have T5. Unless they are carrying an icon they're probably a low priority though, being so slow and all. However unless he brings Soul Grinders (only AV in the dex) then negating FnP is probably the best use for your anti tank (remember any AP1 or 2 weapons ignore FnP, as well as power weapons, Dreadnought ccw's power fists etc.), as all daemons have invul. saves and are immune to instant death...

Ahh he failed to mention the slow rule, not sure about icon, ya my broadsides got assaulted turn two. I think he's new to his codex cause he had nurglings with FnP the first game. Didn't know ap 1 and 2 denied the rule, annoying but to late.

Really need to find the demon codex I bought when it first cane out

soundwave591 wrote:I have plenty of suits, two broadsides, two hammerheads/one sky ray, 4 devilfish, 48 FW, and the plauge bearers have toughness 5 so without rail guns I can't ignore his FnP.

Yeah, but having so many points in an RG to kill *one* plague bearer per shot, if he fails his Cover or Invuln, the equal in points as a marine? That's royally inefficient.

soundwave591 wrote:The first time we played he "forgot" to let me know that he couldn't do squat turn one and got into cc with most of my guys, so my trust isn't so strong, but I generally believe him on his rules. I justdont wanna be taken advantage of if it's on purpose

He assaulted the Turn the units showed up? Stop playing him. That's a major oversight and he shoulda known. He knew. He's a cheater. Cue in the many "censored" icons and vulgarities. I believe the word "douche-bag" is warranted.

*Still* if you're going to have to play someone and it's him ...

He has no vehicles to bust, so b-sides are unnecessary. The ID from the RG is too pricey to kill one infantry model per shot. Take the Railheads (BCs, Target Lock, MT, Dispod, Flechettes) and use the pie-plate, especially effective when he Deep Strikes in, and gets a lousy Run roll to spread his models out. If you can spare the points for a Dispod, then go ahead, but given that there are so few anti-T guns in a Daemon list, and odds are they'll be within the 12" Dispod bubble. Only if your'e really pinched on points, though. If you have room. I'd proxy your SkrRay as a Railhead, too. If these are "friendly" games, where a TO isn't there to monitor shenanigans like assaulting on the Turn Daemons arrive, then he shouldn't have squat to protest over the proxy.

soundwave591 wrote: ... and 20 Kroot I think. Haven't boughtn any because I though they sucked at first and didn't like their look

Kroot are bubble wrap for b-sides or speed bumps for your XV8s. Use them for the latter. JSJ in front of the kroot line, shoot. JSJ back behind 'em. The daemons will have to go through them first. Deploy in two groups of 10, one screening the other for Cover Saves. Best would be if there was a thin forrest piece to JSJ over.

Strongest advice, play someone else.

Yeah were in a campaign together so I may have to play him again. I didn't glue my sky ray so I can switch it out, and my biggest problem was I sat and shot at him without staying mobile. It's nice to learn about his special rules though my ignorance of his rule was the biggest thing beating me I think

Thanks for all the tactical help though and the rules, I thought it was a bit odd to "forget" something so big. He look rather disturbed the second time when I had PR to kill his nurglings(he thought they had FnP and switched them to plauge bearers before our game) and someone played demons and backed me up on ignoring FnP with ID shots

I think I need your list to give any advice about this

im2randomghgh wrote:I think I need your list to give any advice about this

Good idea, im2. And the Daemon dude's list, approximately. Points level?

We played 1320 he had 4 plaugebearer squads, two separate chariots, one flamer squad one demon prince and one AV guy

Mine was
Commander farsight, list for campain I picked him without thinking
Three fire knifes
Hammerhead w/rail and SMS
Two broadsides TL DC with marker and shield drone
6 FW w/devilfish X2

soundwave591 wrote:We played 1320 he had 4 plaugebearer squads, two separate chariots, one flamer squad one demon prince and one AV guy

Mine was
Commander farsight, list for campain I picked him without thinking
Three fire knifes
Hammerhead w/rail and SMS
Two broadsides TL DC with marker and shield drone
6 FW w/devilfish X2

Yeah...Farsight isn't the best choice.

Anyways, your list seems decent, but a few things I would tune up:

Switch the SMS on the Hammerhead for BC, saves you ten points which you can use on a multi-tracker which makes you kind of a fast vehicle. Also, get disruption pods, they are basically a 4+ cover save against all shooting 12" away or more.

Don't ever take a marker drone. Ever. 30 points is way too much. What you want for your broadsides is 1 shield drone for the team and A.S.S. on both, which gives them the maneuverability to hit side armour, avoid an assault etc.

Are there DP on your Devilfish? Get DP on them both.

Other than that this list is pretty solid as an all comers type army.

If the changes I suggested (including switching Farsight for a regular commander) aren't enough, you may want to consider picking up Shas'O r'alai for your HQ, he is the best we have as tau.

If that doesn't work...I feel dirty saying this, but you could try tailoring.

It was made with space marines in mind, I know the farsight stuff I like him but hes way to expensive and made it so I couldn't use a sucky unit I wanna try...vepids

tailoring for demons would probably make you decent vs other MC /hode like armies like tyranids or foot guard possibly. Problem is that most popular is MEQ with marines and necrons. I think its one of the reasons why daemons sometimes surprises people since there's so few of them and what works great against them would not work as well in mech heavy remainder of the meta

I am surprised you lost with that list. If he had played his PB as SnP and did not assault the turn they came in it would change a lot.

Also, do not let him use his icons Turn 1, they need to be on the board at the START of the turn. Further, he is not allowed to measure 6" from his icon until after he chooses his DS position. If he is within 6" then, he does not scatter but this makes a big difference for new Daemon players who have trouble estimating distances.

No he didn't assault turn one this game my first list was bad just bad, he DS close when he deployed and his flamers were able to deal three wounds to my suits turn one. He also got good run roles. I almost had 3 squads dead turn one but his FnP saved him. The next turn him getting to move his full six and assault tied up 2 of my suits and killed 5, 2 in shooting 3 in a lost assault

if you really don't want to play against daemons, Tau can spread out onto pretty much the entire board on t1, if you have enough infiltrating kroot. This way anywhere he deploys he has to risk mishaps and he certainly won't be able to concentrate his force. Ofcourse, that can easily go against the spirit of the game.

I like Brothers advice, pretty much what I would have said but the helios build requires a lot of vigilance. I prefer Fireknives; Plasma and missile pods have good synergy against deamons. Plasma negates fnp and missiles wound on 2+ (unless it's a GreaterDaemon/SC).

On that note, solid rails are pretty crappy against deamons aside from taking out soul grinders, everything has EW and invulnerable saves. Missile pods are just as effective really.

Deamon Princes are a LOT easier to kill than Greaters. If the deamon player isn't taking GD then you should be able to win your next match following the advice in this thread.

How I kill Deamons:
Clever Deployment (Castling)
Markerlights
Fireknives
Cutting back on Railgun Solid shot (bench the broadsides)
Not wasting my vehicle Burst Cannons (multi and target lock if possible for points) they will be used.
PRIORITIZE! Especially if you see a winged GD coming your way. Light him up.

Maige wrote:I like Brothers advice, pretty much what I would have said but the helios build requires a lot of vigilance. I prefer Fireknives; Plasma and missile pods have good synergy against deamons. Plasma negates fnp and missiles wound on 2+ (unless it's a GreaterDaemon/SC).

On that note, solid rails are pretty crappy against deamons aside from taking out soul grinders, everything has EW and invulnerable saves. Missile pods are just as effective really.

Deamon Princes are a LOT easier to kill than Greaters. If the deamon player isn't taking GD then you should be able to win your next match following the advice in this thread.

How I kill Deamons:
Clever Deployment (Castling)
Markerlights
Fireknives
Cutting back on Railgun Solid shot (bench the broadsides)
Not wasting my vehicle Burst Cannons (multi and target lock if possible for points) they will be used.
PRIORITIZE! Especially if you see a winged GD coming your way. Light him up.

Don't ever bench the broadsides. They are by far the best unit in the entire codex, and without them you will also lose every game against every other army. The railgun can kill soulgrinders,GD and Daemon Princes, and the sms is a great weapon with four shots a turn, meaning your broadside pair can take out 8 infantry models a turn.

If you were to take them out though, your best bet would be to make a second unit of crisis suits with BC+PR+MT, it mops up infantry and compliments the Fireknife config well. Even deadlier when you take them as bodyguards and have BC+PR+TA+HWMT, though a bit pricey.

Another, final thing you can do to keep a trick up your sleeve, is a suicide suit, with TL Flamer and a BF for 34 points I believe.

1320? Pick a more standard level, say, 1250 or 1k.

soundwave591 wrote:Commander farsight, list for campain I picked him without thinking

Can you play without him? Ask the TO. Tell him how hosed tau are and you really do need a tighter list. Unless he'd like to see you as the player that people 'farm' for points throughout the league, he ought to let you run a Shas'el FireKnife+.

soundwave591 wrote:Three fire knifes

All as separate units, yes? Not one crew. Each a Team Leader, TA/PR/BC or TA/PR/MP and hwMTs

soundwave591 wrote:Hammerhead w/rail and SMS

As im2 recommended: BC, MT, Target Lock, Dispod. And throw on Felchettes.

soundwave591 wrote:Two broadsides TL DC with marker and shield drone

One of the best, no, *the* best anti-tank unit in the game. But totally out of place facing daemons (excepting the presence of Soul Grinders). Take them out. Put any left over points into more Crisis Suits or another Railhead.

soundwave591 wrote:6 FW w/devilfish X2

Make the 'fish viable. Called a Warfish: SMS, MT, TA, Dispod, Flechettes (again, only against daemons). It pumps a lot of points into the transport, but moving Combat Speed gives them 7 dice of shooting.

If you have many more Crisis Suits, then bring the 'fish back to dumbfish, Just Dispods.

Make the 'fish viable. Called a Warfish: SMS, MT, TA, Dispod, Flechettes (again, only against daemons). It pumps a lot of points into the transport, but moving Combat Speed gives them 7 dice of shooting.

If you have many more Crisis Suits, then bring the 'fish back to dumbfish, Just Dispods

I find flechettes don't prove to be worth it against anything other than IG or orks/nids. Daemon's are simply really, really tough. I'd still throw one on the HH though, because it is a considerable investment.

As for probably the best thing you can do for your list:

Get rid of Farsight. Replace him with a shas'el with CIB+PR+TA+HWMT, which is 100 points (So now you have +70 points in the bank)

As much as it pains me to say it, cut the broadsides (your unit was what, 190 points with all their upgrades? So +190 points in the bank)

Now, Crisis suits