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As a new fantasy player i decided to research out which armies were both playable and decent. Unfortunately i stumbled on a few bloggs praising chaos warriors and after a quick look i decided to dish out quiet abit of cash on them. Now after both playing them and reading almost 40-50 battle reports almost every single the resulting in a defeat for warriors of chaos. i can confidently say, no matter what the build, warriors of chaos are both the worst army in 8th ed and totally un-competitive in any respect. Now im asking the people of dakka if they can name me 1, just 1, W.O.C. army/player whose even been placed in the top 10 in a major tournement (over 100 people).

WoC? Worst army? Huh, did the Wood Elves get updated while I was sleeping?

In all seriousness I have a few questions

1. What is your army?
2. What have you fought against?
3. Strategy?

I'm sorry if this is offensive, but it sounds like you're just not a "good" player. It does take a while to get good at warhammer

At worst they are upper middle tier and are super competitive with the right build

lol yeah i guess i should change it to 2nd worst. Well ive only played a few times, as a new player i expect to loose, im not miffed at that. But i dont want an army that will always loose, unless im playing people at a lower skill level. And at least with wood elves its more or less a well known fact that they're crap, with woc all i hear is how good they are in the meta game and then how they get smashed in real games. I'm just trying to be pratical, i dont want to spend another £100/ $200 on woc unless someone can convince me they're decent. And if they are could someone point me to a proven competitive army list, so i know what to buy.

Chosen star is the most popular one. To be honest there arent that many bad builds for WoC. The core in the army is among the best in the game, on par with most other armies specials and rares.
You haven't however let us know what you have been running, and playing against, or what tactics you have been using with them.

Check out cowpows guide to them, its a good start. I dont think you will get a list built for you lime in the 40k forums and the fantasy forums thankfully are more we will help you come up with one not game one to you.
But letting us know what you have, what you play against and how you want to play is the best start.

Their better than bretts, ogres, wood elves, tomb kings, probably dwarfs, dark elves,vampires ( although I haven't played the new book) maybe empire and daemons too

Sorry for not making myself clear, but im not looking for reasurence that they are good but actual proof and or experiences. For example if i were to ask the same about a dark eldar army, i would want people to refer me to dashofpepper and his guide, Gt tournament winners lists etc.

Its not that im loosing, i expect to lose being a newb to the game, it's that more experienced players loose, meaning that even in 1/2 years time ill still be getting my arsed wooped by dark elves. Speaking of which if you actually look at tmarichards (a decent ranking Dark elf player) pod casts, each battle being in a comp of some kind or other, he smashes every woc he plays, aside from the odd occasion where hes unlucky. This is in contrast to almost ALL the other armies he plays. The reason for me asking in the first place is so i dont waste more money on them, i mean hell cannons are expensive and so are warriors! So just to make clear im not looking for help with my game but proof that woc are a decent army.

I dont know about you, but I have an 80% win rate with my WoC army. I dont play a competitive list, and I'd say in my overall tournament play the wins are more like 50%.
If you dont think the army works, dont play it. I cant prove to you that its good, you'd have to look at the tournament rankings but its on par with most of the other armies out there right now, I think we can all agree. Since clearly you're not sold on them, sell the army you have and buy something you like better.

I agree with Leith, if you think they are crap dont play them.
However, I think WoC might be one of the best armies right now. I mean look at their core choices for example.

WS 5 better than any other base core choice.
I5 on par with the best core choices iniative wise.
4+ armour save base, insanely good.
Ability to have a 3+ 5++ save in CC, with 2 attacks each? INSANE!!!!!
And they really arent that expensive either.
i mean only 16pts a model, even 17pts with a mark (on average) thats just phenominal. And thats just their core choices.

He's not talking about the meta though JohnneM. He want the proof, which he wont get unless he gets good at the game and keeps playing with WoC.
Its a catch 22, iddy00711, we cant prove WoC are any good. You have to prove it to yourself.

Thanks for the advice and I dont mean to sound rude but I AM NOT HAVING PROBLEMS PLAYING WITH THEM AT ALL. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE!!! I knew their armour save and stats long before i even bought my first warrior. I knew their meta-game long before i bought my first warrior.
And thats the problem with them, they are praised but dont come through. Im asking people to prove me wrong here. I DONT HATE THEM, i just want to justify my investment. Now if i were to ask a simlair question... "Could some1 point me to a decent dark eldar player/list who/which has A PROVEN TRACK RECORD?" I would be directed straight to dash. Now change the 'dark eldar' in that question with woc and theres my question. Now my oringinal statement was based on evidence from a LARGE number of battle reps (aside from my own loses which im NOT taking into account at all!). Those reps were mainly comp reps with solid lists from what ive seen goes, i,e, choosen stars, shrines, cannons etc. Despite that, close to 80/90% of all those games were loses for woc.
Im looking for tournament winners (or top 10) who are woc players if youre not 1 then point me to some1 who is.

Edit - lol that is abit of a catch 22. i mean ill play them for a few more weeks but really its pretty crushing thinking that ill have no chance in any kind of comp.

iddy00711 wrote:"Could some1 point me to a decent WoC/list who/which has A PROVEN TRACK RECORD?"

Basically, WHFB has a less aggressive tournament scene than 40k. To be blunt, there is very little in the way of "Net Lists" or "Star Players".

We cannot point you to a List or Player that has a proven record, because those things do not really exist. You will have a general idea of what you will face, but unlike 40k you do not see 10 people running around with nearly identical lists.


There is no equivalent to the "venom spam list" for WoC. We can tell you in general what units are good or not and we can help you to fine tune your list if you would like. We can't just give you a template and say "This list has been used by 75% of WoC players in tournaments and has placed very well". DNE


More WHFB tournaments have some level of Comp, and are seem less likely to attract the most competitive of players. Also, due to the amount of equipment, unit choices, formations, magic, buffs, banners, and hexes, it it nigh impossible to determine a "best" or "TAC" list.

The meta-game for WHFB is much more varied than 40k. in 40k the best list generally have a lot of AV11-12 tanks, some infantry, and maybe a deathstar unit. In fantasy you will see everything from a 300 model skaven army, to a war-machine heavy gunline, to a 50 model ogre army, and they are all equally deadly. In 40k, if build your list to kill Razorbacks, Chimeras, Marines and TH/SS termies you have you TAC bases covered. You simply can't do the same thing in WHFB.


WoC are perfectly fine as far as an army goes. Post a list and we will help you improve it. There is no "star player" we can point you to who wins every tournament he goes to with WoC. There is no
"netlist" for WoC that people are annoyed to have to play over and over.

I am an experienced/avid tourney player and have compiled a 24-3 record with WoC during 8th ed., including 2 Best Overalls and a lowest finish of 9th. These tourneys have been in 4 separate regions of the US (Northern and Southern California, Chicago, Texas).

Furthermore, according to Rankings HQ, WoC is the second best tourney army in the US and 4th best in the UK.

I disagree that WoC is not a top contender army in tournaments. Like you, I have noticed that many WoC players do not do well. I believe it is due to the tactical philosophy of those players. Tactics seem to be charge straight ahead, depend on the toughness and hitting power of the Warriors/Knights or the raw numbers/hitting power of Marauders to see you through, which leads to a pure dice rolling game at best and getting outmaneuvered and massacred against an opponent with some tactical acumen.

So now that I have established my track record, threw in a little empirical evidence, and tossed out an opinion, was that what you were looking for?

Hinge

I think the next step will be what is your list and tactics....

The reason you see so many batreps where WoC loose is that people can't help but show off that they managed to beat them

HoverBoy wrote:The reason you see so many batreps where WoC loose is that people can't help but show off that they managed to beat them

QFT . Plus no matter what is flavour of the month, WoC still seems to be popular no matter the newest baddest army fielded by many.

I have yet to see a warshine tzeentch chosen star not table 75% of the people it plays against out wave after wave of undead or gutstar. In the scene here in florida its hard to ignore the strength of the WoC. We have 2 that are consistantly top 6 out of 20. Just my 2 cents..

They kick WE's ass.

Current tourney with themed woc list. 1 win. 2 losses. First one against the winner of last year second against a broken as he'll daemon army.

You are new to the game so don't expect to win right away there isn't as much of an auto win button in fantasy as there is in 40k.

As said in previous posts what is you list and what tactics are you using? Also are you deploying properly?

No offence but this sounds like a case of "I wanna win NOOOOW!!1!"

iddy00711 wrote:i can confidently say, no matter what the build, warriors of chaos are both the worst army in 8th ed and totally un-competitive in any respect.

Then why are you dragging this out if you are so sure? Chose a different army. Remember though you cant come back and say this with all of em

HoverBoy wrote:No offence but this sounds like a case of "I wanna win NOOOOW!!1!"

Yep, very much a case of write my instawin list,. Just happy fantasy at least has some tactics left in it.

iddy00711 wrote:Thanks for the advice and I dont mean to sound rude but I AM NOT HAVING PROBLEMS PLAYING WITH THEM AT ALL. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE!!! I knew their armour save and stats long before i even bought my first warrior. I knew their meta-game long before i bought my first warrior.
And thats the problem with them, they are praised but dont come through. Im asking people to prove me wrong here. I DONT HATE THEM, i just want to justify my investment. Now if i were to ask a simlair question... "Could some1 point me to a decent dark eldar player/list who/which has A PROVEN TRACK RECORD?" I would be directed straight to dash. Now change the 'dark eldar' in that question with woc and theres my question. Now my oringinal statement was based on evidence from a LARGE number of battle reps (aside from my own loses which im NOT taking into account at all!). Those reps were mainly comp reps with solid lists from what ive seen goes, i,e, choosen stars, shrines, cannons etc. Despite that, close to 80/90% of all those games were loses for woc.
Im looking for tournament winners (or top 10) who are woc players if youre not 1 then point me to some1 who is.

Edit - lol that is abit of a catch 22. i mean ill play them for a few more weeks but really its pretty crushing thinking that ill have no chance in any kind of comp.

Change "Dark Eldar" to, Vampire Counts, Daemons of Chaos, Dark Elves, Dwarves, skaven or Empire, and you still won't get a Single super list. Super lists don't exist. The fundamentals of the Fantasy are more varied than 40K, which results in more divergence in competitive lists.

-Matt

As a new fantasy player i decided to research[...]

Stopped reading from there. I mean how can you even think of judging WoC without having a clue about the game?
I´m no WoC player but I got my green butt tabled since 5th ed. by WoC players and I´m no git

I dont know what lists you tried/want to try out but if you like to go elite without the obvious deathstar try MSU of chaos warriors with 2 hellcannons as support. Pretty mean and something most people wont expect.

Im looking for tournament winners (or top 10) who are woc players if youre not 1 then point me to some1 who is.

Wont help you much until you have a feeling of the game itself. Just copy their lists wont bring you far from where you at right now. Try to get as many games under your belt with different lists vs the other armies and once you have the experience try to nail out weaknesses. From my experience you cant take a "top10 ´ard boyz" or sth like that list and go out winning. There are ETC rules, ´ard boyz rules and might even store rulez plus the top10 players of tournaments are not the first time at that tournament and somewhat know what will be fielded. Too many variables you wont get filled properly to even think of grabbing that top tier list and straight out winning matches.

Just play and analyze your matches (win&loss) and come back here asking the why´s is the best advice you can get.

Don't feed the trolls.

Thanks for the replys. Especially to hinge/svendrex/cowpow. If theres at least 1 decent woc player ill stick with them. And ill stop comparing warhamer to 40k lol.

@gorbad well after 2 months of reading the rules over and going over 100 odd battle reports and tactia i have some feel for the game. My oringinal worry wasnt from personal experience. i mean if i would have tabled everyone i played, in the few times ive played, i would still have posted this.

w3rm wrote:Don't feed the trolls.

I know I should not feed you but I will bite. How is asking a legitimate desperate question trolling? I have a strange feeling you read the title and then posted without looking at the posts

Johnny-Crass wrote:

w3rm wrote:Don't feed the trolls.

I know I should not feed you but I will bite. How is asking a legitimate desperate question trolling? I have a strange feeling you read the title and then posted without looking at the posts

Also, it's the most overused phrase on forums ever. Jus' sayin'.

Really?

I hate to be that guy. I really do, but come on!

Google would provide the answer to your question. WoC are fantastic in tournaments, the builds haven't really changed since 7th. Any WoC, or any Warhammer forum with tournament battle reports should have answered this question. Hell, even asking around should have been easy.

But, to summarize, yes, WoC are top tier. They are probably, in my opinion, right beneath Dark Elves. If they're the worst at anything, they're the worst at being the worst.

Op's name when pronounced outloud when considering leetspeak is: idiot. Topic is flamewar troll bait, and markedly untrue, all subsequent posts are straw men or blame shifts.

Smurf account troll 2/10 i aint even mad.