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Ok, so what should i use against one of my mates Grey Knights
He uses Drago and paladins in a SR as his main uni,but the thing is this is his 9 or 10 battle ever, so he is not the best player.
I was thinking herald/soul grinder/dp tzeetch style to take out the sr, then flamers to kill whats inside.
bloodletters eat termi armor, but they might have an invuln save, and they will send me back to the brass citadel faster than (insert end of clever khorny metaphor here)
horrors- I have seen a squad of 10 assault termies survive my 60 warpfire shots. with only one dying. so ima stay away from these
fiends- RENDING RENDING RENDING. and they are fiends. so yeah
flamers- eat armor, but kinda squishy and expensive
thoughts?

the psych out grenades will really reduce fiend effectiveness as all your guys are I1.

Hounds are really good against GK what with 2+ invul save and can charge them from beast range.

A squad of suicide flamers can also wreck some face if you get good enough position. I think you have the right idea with shooting down the storm raven with those choices. All are just fine at landing their shots but you will have to get through the flat out cover saves and bolt is just one shot. Fiends and rending might do it for you as well if you get unlucky with position. Even if it moved flat out you'll still be looking at some 30 hits even rolling on 6's you'll have 16.66% to hit and some 5 hits in there. Just remember that if he wants to fly the storm raven in and drop off guys, it can't move flat out again afterwards in the same turn. Take advantage of that to down it to reduce firepower. Not like daemons really care about range all that much anyway.

Hounds hounds hounds! release the hounds! (seriously one of the best unit vs gk I've seen short of a blood thirster, and suicide flamers still work just fine vs MEQ)

Three units really excell against GK's:
Blood Thirster with blessing + might. S8 attack for instant kill on paladins. Blessing for 2+ invulnerable against all GK's in close combat. He can trash any GK unit (except death cult with grenades) in close combat. He is however vulnerable to shooting, so it may be better to just go with Tz Heralds.
Flesh hounds for a fast cc unit that can tie up any GK unit because of 2+ invulnerable in close combat. Will win combats in the end.
Deamon Prince, MoK, blessing - It will rip through all enemy units in CC (except death cult) and it is very cheap. It is vulnerable to shooting though. Iron hide looks tempting, but keeping them cheap may also work well.

Now, I would advocate against super-tailoring. However, all deamon players must take GK's into account, so I would try to work in the above units into your allcommer list, and then put in the units that make you competitive against other armies too. (several of which are still good against GK's)

Tzeentch Heralds on chariots with bolt, legion and master of sorcery are great supporting HQ's.
Fiends are great against a lot of other armies. Against GK's, they have to play much safer, but they can still rip through MSU units, transports and dreadnoughts, so they are still useful. 6 with 1 strength for 190 is very nice IMO, they run straight over most units with their amount of attacks, they are reasonable survivable, they are fast and they can take out anything from infantry to walkers.
Plaguebearers are still good troops. Psycannons are not that great against them with a 3+ GTG coversave followed by a 4+ FNP.

For an 1850 all-commer list with extra focus on GK's, I would go with something like this:

Herald of Tz, chariot, bolt, legion, master of sorcery
Herald of Tz, chariot, bolt, legion, master of sorcery
Herald of Tz, chariot, bolt, legion, master of sorcery
Herald of Tz, chariot, bolt, legion, master of sorcery
5 Fiends, strength
5 Fiends, strength
5 Fiends, strength
5 Plaguebearers
5 Plaguebearers
5 Plaguebearers
5 Plaguebearers
5 Plaguebearers
5 Flesh Hounds
5 Flesh Hounds
Deamon Prince, MoK, blessing, iron hide
Deamon Prince, MoK, blessing, iron hide
Deamon Prince, MoK, blessing, iron hide
1850pts

A very copy-paste list, but IMO, not a boring list even with all the copy-paste.

that's actually a pretty viable list honestly. Just make sure you are far enough away with fiends to be out of range of a GK charge. psy-out greandes are only effective on assault. If you assault them, the nades don't kick in.

Protect your fiends with some plagebearers in front of them to give a cover save. 4+ cover is better than 5+ invulv.

I like daemon princes but with MoK I usually end up taking wings just cause I really want to assault and not get assaulted so I try to put them out a bit. Also no fleet will hurt them a bit. A nurgle prince to soak fire is also fairly effective.

Beware the dreaded warp quake if he has any strike or interceptor squads. These guys are insane vs us as they can deny alot of a table and make our deployment a real mess.

Hounds are awsome, but don't expect them to actually kill much. No ability to gain any power toy abilities and only a couple rending options. They will however, keep any grey knight units locked in combat quite litterly forever though! Just watch out for dark ex which will nullify every single gift on a single squad in combat.

You might want a couple small squads of horrors w/bolt just to add a few more anti-tank shots. Plus, you almost certainly want the changeling! He's easily the game's best unit upgrade and he's an absolute blast to use!

Avoid soul grinders - GK's have way too much access to S7/rending weaponry. Stick to things like princes which can grab cover easier than the 'grinder.

Good luck!

I think Khorne units with Blessing and Flamers will be very useful in dealing with GK.

Probably wouldnt use a soulgrinder, I imagine it would die too easy.

I think you should never take collars. Maybe on the thirster, but hounds are just tailoring unfairly.

Likewise, you can expect the same from your friend. After all, if gk want to be dumb and tailor, if you go second you cant deploy and if you do make it on the board all your gifts are taken away, including your collars, and armor save, and you have to reroll successful invuln saves.

DevianID wrote:I think you should never take collars. Maybe on the thirster, but hounds are just tailoring unfairly.

Likewise, you can expect the same from your friend. After all, if gk want to be dumb and tailor, if you go second you cant deploy and if you do make it on the board all your gifts are taken away, including your collars, and armor save, and you have to reroll successful invuln saves.

GK's totally screw over deamons without any need for tailoring. Including a few hounds to tie up GK's forever isn't tailoring, it is smart list building. You are very likely to run into several GK players in any tournament = taking stuff that changes that match-up from a walk-over to a fair fight is smart, not tailoring. Hounds are really cheap for the impact they can have.

Khorne princes are good too. IMO, bolt-princes are too expensive for what they do and soul grinders have their own issues. The Khorne prince is very cheap, and once again, you are really making life hard for GK players. The blessing is so cheap that anything that can take it should take it.

The GK player can tailor to auto-win against deamons, but that is a very very poor strategy for winning tourneys. You are unlikely to meet lots of deamon players, and normal GK's are bad compared to purifiers or paladins.

I would probably not take hounds just for the sole fact that they really aren't great.


Pretty sure that all your gifts dont dissapear when you deploy on the board either, I remember there being something about using a psychic power in combat or some such...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also its worth checking out Khorne Heralds on chariots if your up for making the model, pretty much they do what a Prince can do but they are cheaper.

Xeriapt wrote:Pretty sure that all your gifts dont dissapear when you deploy on the board either, I remember there being something about using a psychic power in combat or some such...

Indeed, it is just one libby power that strips one unit in base with the libby of demonic gifts for that phase.

DevianID wrote:I think you should never take collars. Maybe on the thirster, but hounds are just tailoring unfairly.

Likewise, you can expect the same from your friend. After all, if gk want to be dumb and tailor, if you go second you cant deploy and if you do make it on the board all your gifts are taken away, including your collars, and armor save, and you have to reroll successful invuln saves.

Yeah, sure, because GK's only have a million + 1 'free' advantages against us... How dare we use one of the only counters we have against them!!!


As for the dark ex carrying units;
Coteaz, dreadknights & any librarian either automatically come with or else can buy Dark Ex. I've found that newer and/or less hyper-competitive players tend to include a dreadknight, especially if they like the model. In larger lists, such as 2K and higher, there's little reason why you wouldn't spend the small pts cost for dark ex on a libby, especially if you do know ahead of time that there's a few daemon armies kicking about.
Coteaz in a unit of deathcults/crusaders is a complete b*^!% to deal with...

Likewise, Hounds are awsome make no mistake. Cheap, fast, provide some almost meaningfull psychic defense in an army that otherwise has none and they're great for tarpitting GK's and/or chasing down transports. When I play my non-mono tzeentch list, I always include a few hounds as at the very least, they're a cheap source for speed/tying things down for a turn or two. If my opponent has a psyker of their own, even better!

I'd avoid too many Flamers though... Warp quake utterly neuters them and forces you to over-spend on the unit in order to survive even a bare handfull of shots. Plus, after that first time you drop 3 of 'em on top of his prized unit of termies/purifyers/paladins and chew through half or more of the squad, (if not outright wiping out termies/purifyers), you can bet your opponent WILL bring warp quake next game as a counter! (and he'd be dumb not to honestly)
One of the main reasons alot of the local GK players in my area keep at least 10 warp quake capable models around in all their lists is because of how 'cheesey' Flamers are percieved to be. No one sheds a tear around me that Flamers have become nearly extinct!

Keep in mind this is not a tourney, its friends playing. Tailoring, especially with gk and daemons, can make the game no fun. Warp quake, daemons lose. Banisher, daemons lose. Dark ex, daemons lose. None of those and daemons spamming collars, gk lose. Or, since friends are playing, don't take the auto win options and actually play a game?

It's like recommending using kroot to infiltrate and block a nids board edge in a friendly game... Why the heck did you drive over and waste your day?

DevianID wrote:Keep in mind this is not a tourney, its friends playing. Tailoring, especially with gk and daemons, can make the game no fun. Warp quake, daemons lose. Banisher, daemons lose. Dark ex, daemons lose. None of those and daemons spamming collars, gk lose. Or, since friends are playing, don't take the auto win options and actually play a game?

It's like recommending using kroot to infiltrate and block a nids board edge in a friendly game... Why the heck did you drive over and waste your day?

Hyperbole. Banisher is hardly worth it even against deamons, dark ex is easy to stop as it is used by a weak unit in close combat = it will be used once, then the excommer dies.

The only thing that will destroy the game is warp quake SPAM (a couple units are fine), which = infiltrate kroot x1000 beardiness. Adding some units to actually give the GK player a fight = sound tactics and something that should make the game more fun for all involved.

I give advice in a competitive and all-commer sense when in the 40k tactics section. I have not adviced real spamming of blessing. That would have involved 2x thirster, 45 hounds and 3 khorne princes. You have just spread hyperbole and dismissed good advice in a TACTICS thread. If you want to talk about how one should play with their friends, take it to discussion.

IMO, deamon players should take flesh hounds in their armies now. GK's are very common and very dangerous for deamons, flesh hounds are very cheap and very useful against GK's. Why should you not take them? It's not like deamons have tons of great fast attack units.
In the same vein, blood thirsters and khorne princes have become more viable because of blessing, adding more possible choices for deamon players, a good thing IMO.

I think Draigo himself is in poor taste vs daemons. lol
Hes the only guy in the codex who has daemon bane and hits stuff like thristers at strength 10.

Strike squad spamming warp quake is also in poor taste vs daemons in a friendly games.

I however wouldnt feel bad taking a strike squad to sit on my objective in a tourney since theres many in my area who find it funny to ds empty drops pods, doom of malantai, etc on objectives.

Ironically I wouldnt take a dk in a tourney but do use them in friendly games. I dont have to worry about daemon players feelings since Im the only one who ever uses them. lol

Hyperbole. Banisher is hardly worth it even against deamons, dark ex is easy to stop as it is used by a weak unit in close combat = it will be used once, then the excommer dies.

Sorry, I recommend you consider the banisher a bit more. Think what kind of unit gets a banisher. Now consider the additional range granted by being in a vehicle, and how hard a time Daemons have busting vehicles. Now add that almost every unit in a GK army will strike before daemons, and the Daemons save just got much worse with the Banisher.

As to the 5 units you get with Dark Ex. All of them have a 2+ save. You take away all power weapons coming back at you. In no way are these weak models in cc. Arguabily the weakest is Coteaz, and unless you have a Bloodthirster or expensive Prince, his 2+ save stands, he swings at the same time, he wounds on a 2+, and if you add in a banisher for killing your saves you are looking at trading a thirster for a 100 point HQ. Thats if you dont smoke the thirster before he even swings with whatever unit Coteaz is in. Who, by the way, could just stay in a vehicle and not get charged in the first place.

So yeah, not hyperbole. GK smoke Daemons if they want to, and they do it without bothering to take warp quake. So instead of instigating an arms race between friends with escalating tailored lists, which the GK will win, keep the Daemon list untailored and fun.

With Dark Ex dont forget it is only one unit in contact, if you charge with 2 or more things your should be fine.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Likewise, Hounds are awsome make no mistake. Cheap, fast, provide some almost meaningfull psychic defense in an army that otherwise has none and they're great for tarpitting GK's and/or chasing down transports. When I play my non-mono tzeentch list, I always include a few hounds as at the very least, they're a cheap source for speed/tying things down for a turn or two. If my opponent has a psyker of their own, even better!

Mono Tzeentch? With Hounds? Crazy talk.

DevianID wrote:

Hyperbole. Banisher is hardly worth it even against deamons, dark ex is easy to stop as it is used by a weak unit in close combat = it will be used once, then the excommer dies.

Sorry, I recommend you consider the banisher a bit more. Think what kind of unit gets a banisher. Now consider the additional range granted by being in a vehicle, and how hard a time Daemons have busting vehicles. Now add that almost every unit in a GK army will strike before daemons, and the Daemons save just got much worse with the Banisher.

As to the 5 units you get with Dark Ex. All of them have a 2+ save. You take away all power weapons coming back at you. In no way are these weak models in cc. Arguabily the weakest is Coteaz, and unless you have a Bloodthirster or expensive Prince, his 2+ save stands, he swings at the same time, he wounds on a 2+, and if you add in a banisher for killing your saves you are looking at trading a thirster for a 100 point HQ. Thats if you dont smoke the thirster before he even swings with whatever unit Coteaz is in. Who, by the way, could just stay in a vehicle and not get charged in the first place.

So yeah, not hyperbole. GK smoke Daemons if they want to, and they do it without bothering to take warp quake. So instead of instigating an arms race between friends with escalating tailored lists, which the GK will win, keep the Daemon list untailored and fun.

So what you are saying is: Let the GK player roll over you without a fight by not bringing anything that may be remotely threatening to him. Your "advice" is useless and yes, hyperbolic.

Fiends rip apart any henchman build. Tzeetch heralds blow up the transport, fiends rip apart everyone inside (coteaz and banishers included) before they strike. Khorne stuff goes after force weapon units to lock and eventually kill them. Libby is more of a pain, as whatever you send at him to kill him will also probably die after taking him out. (if he is with a fighty unit)

GK's are of course great against deamons anyways. Psycannon/psyback/psyfleman are all great against deamons, and they are not exactly rare units. It is really only Draigo-wing which get's shafted by lots of Khorne stuff.

Including some Khorne stuff simply evens out the playingfield a bit and actually gives the deamon player a few effective tools to use against the GK tool cabinet.

Xeriapt wrote:With Dark Ex dont forget it is only one unit in contact, if you charge with 2 or more things your should be fine.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Likewise, Hounds are awsome make no mistake. Cheap, fast, provide some almost meaningfull psychic defense in an army that otherwise has none and they're great for tarpitting GK's and/or chasing down transports. When I play my non-mono tzeentch list, I always include a few hounds as at the very least, they're a cheap source for speed/tying things down for a turn or two. If my opponent has a psyker of their own, even better!

Mono Tzeentch? With Hounds? Crazy talk.

Oops! Should be "when I don't play my mono-Tzeentch build". I've converted up some 'counts as' for that army, but no 'feathered warphounds' yet.
My other main list I like is a Khorne/Slaanesh mix that's having a lively 'debate' about who's better, olny to have their little shindig ruined by some other army sticking their collective noses into my daemonic argument!


As for what's proper for a friendly fight? 1 unit of hounds and say a 'thirster and/or prince both with blessings is hardly going to ruin the game. 3 units of hounds on the other hand, plus bringing 3x princes w/blessings, a 'thirster w/blessing and Fateweaver I would agree is being a complete tool!
That's no different than if the GK player brings more than 10 warp quake capable models, plus multiple dark ex sources, plus the stupid grenades and such other 'no fun' shinanigans.

And yes, Banishers are evil, terrible things to pull on a daemon player considering most of the army have weak invulns and no armour saves. For 30pts a GK player can add a chainfist to any henchman squad and remove Fateweaver's ability completely - hardly balanced...
Fiends are good for sure, but most henchman units will be of the DCA/crusader variety with a banisher for the anti-dreadnought capability, or else worthless min/maxed melta squads that even 5 pinkies could paste in combat! Fiends die amazingly fast to those assaulty henchmen squads!

sudojoe wrote:the psych out grenades will really reduce fiend effectiveness as all your guys are I1.

Psychout grenades only work on the turn the wielding model assaults, not period

Psychout grenades only work on the turn the wielding model assaults, not period

that is correct. So if you get the charge, you will do better. But don't expect your keeper of secrets, if you run one, to survive just cause of I10 if you get charged from the DS

Beating GK is all about charging them. (or surviving the charge) to counter assault. I would run Fateweaver against GK, you really need the rerolls on saves and other than Rifleman dreads all their shooting is 24". Then I would throw in an 8x block of Crushers, even with hammerhand GK have trouble putting enough wounds on them (especially with fateweaver nearby). Had a henchmen squad of DCA with hammerhand hit a squad this weekend out of a Land Raider and they really bounced off - YMMV.

With that as an 'anvil' unit, I would use Fiends next (it is okay to Assault in Halbreds, usually they only get 1 attack) and I personally like to use Soul Grinders with Tongue/Phlegma. The reason being GK have so many Storm Bolters, they can eat through a DP pretty quickly. With no Melta they need 6's on a psycannon to Pen it, or a 6 on a Rifleman. Either way that means a whole unit of SB's are not shooting the crushers/fiends in their face. I have played with Tzeetch Princes (if you want to take a Khorne Prince forget it and just take a Winged Nurgle Prince.

Tongue gives you that edge to take down a Raven/Land Raider, although I like the psychological effect of Phlegm pushing opponents to spread out so they cannot concentrate their fire. Once in CC if they did not grab a Hammer or Might of Titan the unit is done.

A Bloodthirster is, no question, awesome against GK with WS protection, high toughness, plus a 3+ save to shrug off small arms fire. Blessing just makes them brutal and is so cheap it is worth taking all the time. I like a KoS as a killy unit, but mine has been getting picked apart lately. I think I got it into assault once in my last 5 games which might be on me as well...

As troops I am still partial to Daemonettes, I have used Horrors and PB's before, but somehow I just like the extra speed and Rending on the Daemonettes. I am sure a lot of that is just personal playstyle. Defensive Grenades also really helps limit the hurt from a charging GK unit.

I am also a huge fan of seekers over hounds, once again Rending and speed are critical because if you manage to dismount a GK squad you need to pin them down in assault to avoid those 20 SB shots...

Dont forget that Sanctuary makes almost all daemons strike last when they assault and also causes damage to them. Even if the GK player didnt take Sanctuary, hugging cover has almost the same effect.

at least fiends have grenades so that helps a bit.

Also, if you charge a unit already locked in combat, you do not need grenades.

sudojoe wrote:at least fiends have grenades so that helps a bit.

Funny story, Fiends do not have grenades. The problem I always have with GK is Librarians. Quicksilver plus Might of Titan turn those GK into killing machines when combined with their own Hammderhand.

calypso2ts wrote:

sudojoe wrote:at least fiends have grenades so that helps a bit.

Funny story, Fiends do not have grenades. The problem I always have with GK is Librarians. Quicksilver plus Might of Titan turn those GK into killing machines when combined with their own Hammderhand.

oh snap, you are right, I was thinking seekers. Aura of acquiensence mixed up with hit and run sporophic musk >.< my old age is catching up with me.

I find that alot of people play GK powers wrong and I often catch them trying to cast quicksilver in my assault phase or might of titan. I've had guys try to cast quicksilver after assaults started too which just boggles my mind.

I have found the same thing with GK players, they tend to cast fortitude at the wrong time, quicksilver out of sequence or even start rolling their hits then try to cast Hammerhand.

In a casual game I usually look the other way, but its saved me a few times in tournaments. The problem is this advantage is going to go away with time...

calypso2ts wrote:I have found the same thing with GK players, they tend to cast fortitude at the wrong time, quicksilver out of sequence or even start rolling their hits then try to cast Hammerhand.

In a casual game I usually look the other way, but its saved me a few times in tournaments. The problem is this advantage is going to go away with time...

I'd have expected this to dwindle with time but I've not see much improvement and still see this alot since I think like you said, most people in friendly games just let it slide It's been almost a year and I've really seen no difference lol

sudojoe wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:I have found the same thing with GK players, they tend to cast fortitude at the wrong time, quicksilver out of sequence or even start rolling their hits then try to cast Hammerhand.

In a casual game I usually look the other way, but its saved me a few times in tournaments. The problem is this advantage is going to go away with time...

I'd have expected this to dwindle with time but I've not see much improvement and still see this alot since I think like you said, most people in friendly games just let it slide It's been almost a year and I've really seen no difference lol

Like ba players who forget red thirst? Sw who forget how wolf claws work? Sw players who forget the charms talismans and sagas? No its unlikely that everyone will stop forgetting things. Its pretty common.

hah, almost every BA game I play it seems the player rolls for thirst somewhere in turn 1 or 2.

DevianID wrote:hah, almost every BA game I play it seems the player rolls for thirst somewhere in turn 1 or 2.

God damn that is one annoying rule. Totally guilty of this every single time