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Comparing to BA, SW, DA and BT, here are the list of units for codex space marine that is: same price or cheaper + just as good or better.

TH/SS Terminators
Predator - AC LC sponsons
Whirlwind
Vindicator

Am I missing something?
Looks like Codex Space Marine is really hosed. -_-

Thunderfire cannon, land speeder storms.

Codex Space Marine's razorbacks, predators and vindicators are much cheaper than the Black Templar's.

The Templars also don't get librarians (nor should they for fluff reasons), sternguard, ironclad dradnoughts, whirlwinds, bikes as troops, Land Raider Redeemers, scouts, devastator squads, vanguard veterans, or honor guard.

Black templars have to pay for their grenades, and can only get sergeants in their command squads. The dreadnoughts don't have all of the weapon options, and the rhinos don't come with smoke or search lights unless you buy them.

What the Black Templars do have is 5-man terminator squads with 2 heavy weapons. the ability to give furious charge to their terminators, and Prefered Enemy: You. So guess what you generally see a lot of Black Templar players running? All of these things will probably go away with the next codex update, if and when that happens.

I like to think of the Codex Space Marines as more generalists and can typically make more varied armies than the "specialist" codecies you're comparing them to. Not always, but typically.

Vulcan is undercosted and makesall the space marine units much better.

Yeah the codex is older and suffers from codex creep, but Vulkan is still really really goodl.

Well sw get longfangs that are cheaper and better than devastations (by a lot), they also get +1 attack and counter charge for there troop squads so they are better at range and in cc.

BA get to take assault marines as a troop choice so again they get basically +1 attack, and they get access to fnp bubbles. Oh and all their vehicles are fast .

Thunderfire cannons are the absolute best cost for what you get. You effectively pay 25 points for the cannon.

Also, ironclad dreads. Cheap, powerful, have move though cover USR and extra armor already in.

Finally, vulkan. He costs a good 50ish points under what he does, and even then he would still be great.

Thunderfire cannons are good? Maybe you need more than one to be effective. My experiences with them have been they might kill a few troops, but they're usually taken out fast and easy.

Never underestimate the ability to shoot 4 str 6 , str 5 no cover, or str 4 causes terrain rolls shots against an enemy unit/model, plus being able to reinforce ruins for so cheap.

A good space marine list doesn't really need it's heavy support section, unless you are going dread spam. I run 3 thunderfire cannons just about every game, and damn to my opponents hate them.

But a single one is good. The ability to slow down the enemy, or kill GEQ or worse, or just to force tons of wounds from a unit that's so cheap but does so much is too good to pass up.

They aren't taken out, far from it in fact. Normally I play games were my thunderfire cannons never even get shot at. Even if they did, having a nice 3+ cover save for the whole thing makes it a bad target when I've got ironclads, or a land raider, even landspeeders on the board.

I've watched as 3 thunderfire cannons took out a group of 8 terminators, just by forcing a ton of saves. I've immobilized land raiders with the cannons, I've killed jump pack infantry that failed their dangerous terrain test, I've caused bikes to be unable to move in fear of losing models, I've slowed hordes of 20 man power armor blobs down. The utility is unmatched elsewhere in the codex and even in the majority of the other books.

Try proxying 3 your next chance you get, and be amazed.

Most of the time, the gun of the thunderfire cannon get hit since it has only 4+ cover save in all circumstances (unless you don't want it to be able to shoot to the side). One lascannon shot that get passed and the gun is gone. :( Even in a game where I got 2 thunderfire cannons, 4 lascannons shots from razorbacks are all it takes.

juraigamer wrote:Never underestimate the ability to shoot 4 str 6 , str 5 no cover, or str 4 causes terrain rolls shots against an enemy unit/model, plus being able to reinforce ruins for so cheap.

A good space marine list doesn't really need it's heavy support section, unless you are going dread spam. I run 3 thunderfire cannons just about every game, and damn to my opponents hate them.

But a single one is good. The ability to slow down the enemy, or kill GEQ or worse, or just to force tons of wounds from a unit that's so cheap but does so much is too good to pass up.

They aren't taken out, far from it in fact. Normally I play games were my thunderfire cannons never even get shot at. Even if they did, having a nice 3+ cover save for the whole thing makes it a bad target when I've got ironclads, or a land raider, even landspeeders on the board.

I've watched as 3 thunderfire cannons took out a group of 8 terminators, just by forcing a ton of saves. I've immobilized land raiders with the cannons, I've killed jump pack infantry that failed their dangerous terrain test, I've caused bikes to be unable to move in fear of losing models, I've slowed hordes of 20 man power armor blobs down. The utility is unmatched elsewhere in the codex and even in the majority of the other books.

Try proxying 3 your next chance you get, and be amazed.

That definitely makes it sound promising. I've not experimented with the tremor shells, yet.

I was also uncertain if the techmarine bolsters defenses, does the cannon still get to fire that turn? Does the techmarine firing the cannon prevent him from shooting as well?

Proxying them might be the best idea...that model is an extreme PITA to assemble, and the techmarine is a nightmare to put together and paint lol.

It just seems like for the points of 3 thunderfires, you could almost have 3 vindicators instead.

Techmarine boster defense happens before the game starts. It only work on ruins and does not affect vehicle.

The techmarine cannot do anything until the cannon is destroyed.

Remember it's artillery, and like artillery you have to roll for what gets hit by each shot.

Furthermore it's a mixed unit, and since half of it will have a cover save, or a better cover save if the techmarine is in ruins, the whole unit has a cover save at all times.

Also, vehicles can gain the cover of the terrain they are behind, so an imperial guard vehicle behind improved ruins with the stealth USR has a 2+ cover.

juraigamer wrote:Also, vehicles can gain the cover of the terrain they are behind, so an imperial guard vehicle behind improved ruins with the stealth USR has a 2+ cover.

What what, eh?

I thought vehicles only gain cover if they are obscured, so 50% or more of its facing has to be covered from view.

Also, I thought this was a straight up 4+ cover, since the rules for vehicles are separate from the infantry cover rules...

@juraigamer: I don't believe this is the case. The only time vehicle will ever get 3+ cover save is when you are in the side firing arc and you can only see the front.
@Joe Mama: You are correct.

Joe Mama wrote:

...

Also, I thought this was a straight up 4+ cover, since the rules for vehicles are separate from the infantry cover rules...

Incorrect, the cover save a vehicle gains from being obscured is the same save given by what's obscuring it. See pg 62, 3rd to last paragraph.

leohart wrote:Comparing to BA, SW, DA and BT, here are the list of units for codex space marine that is: same price or cheaper + just as good or better.

TH/SS Terminators
Predator - AC LC sponsons
Whirlwind
Vindicator

Am I missing something?
Looks like Codex Space Marine is really hosed. -_-

Librarian with Null Zone.

AresX8 wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:

...

Also, I thought this was a straight up 4+ cover, since the rules for vehicles are separate from the infantry cover rules...

Incorrect, the cover save a vehicle gains from being obscured is the same save given by what's obscuring it. See pg 62, 3rd to last paragraph.

Ah, good to know. I don't want to get too off topic, but juraigamer mentioned an IG vehicle which has stealth, what vehicle would that be?

Against the right oponent the default spacemarine universal rule is really very good.

Aslo, SW have a low leadership. They often runn away. The caharcters also gets invounerable saves (iron haloes) something SW do not. GH needs to be 12" away for the melta, regular marines can be 24". While I would agree that GH might be better then regular marines, they are not better in every sence. Just play to the regular marines strong suits.

Niiai wrote:Against the right oponent the default spacemarine universal rule is really very good..

Agreed. This is from an earlier post I made about Combat Tactics.

3++ Cover Saves
If your unit is getting shot by a weapon that will kill 25% or more of your models, you can always go to ground, and then auto-fall back after you lose 25% of the models. This is useful if your squad of 4 models is wounded 5 times by long fangs with ML. It can also be used when a squad is caught in the open for a 6+ cover save.
-"If the unit has to fall back, it will return to normal immediately" p24 BRB

Avoiding Assault
If an assault unit is moving to assault your unit, and they shoot at the unit, you can always choose to fall back if you take 25% causalities. This lets you fall back out of assault range. With fewer players playing vanilla marines now, people forget that trick-- even vet players.
-"unit losing 25% or more of its models during a single phase must pass a Morale check at the end of that phase, or else it will fall back."

Breaking from Assault
When your squad has lost a round of assault, and they cannot hope to continue the assault, then you can auto-fall back. This allows you to rally, then shoot the assault unit, or move back out of assault range. This can be used to try and salvage a unit from a deathstar assault, in addition to getting away from an IG blob with 5 power swords. It has limited use vs high Init models, such as wytches, but can still be worth a shot.

Free Movement
Combat tactics can allow you to get some free movement on the opponents turn, allowing you some useful tricks. You can auto-fall back to land on an objective, provided you still have one turn left to rally. It also lets you get further back from an assault unit, such as Twolf calvary.

Falling Back
-"Each model in the unit falls back directly towards their own table edge by the shortest possible route."
-"Sometimes a unit will find its fall back move blocked by impassable terrain, friendly models or enemy models (remember they have to stay 1" away from enemy models). The models in the falling back unit may move around these obstructions in such a way as to get back to their table edge by the shortest route, maintaining unit coherency."
-"If the unit cannot perform a full fall back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed"

How to fall back is important. You don't fall back in a straight line. You fall back in the shortest, legal path. You cannot pass through your own models, nor can you go within 1" of an enemy model. You will also pass right through difficult terrain. Provided that you don't need to double back, you can move directly to the side (assuming there is at least one open path to your board edge). You can even use your own models to guide the fallback.

My problem with fall back is
1) I can no longer go to ground (which is ok)
2) It doesn't take much skill to force fall back unit off the table.

Combat Tactics has served me well for my bike army, I just found that may be something is missing for Space Marine since Blood Angel just got more for cheaper, which, to me make no sense.

Joe Mama wrote:

AresX8 wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:

...

Also, I thought this was a straight up 4+ cover, since the rules for vehicles are separate from the infantry cover rules...

Incorrect, the cover save a vehicle gains from being obscured is the same save given by what's obscuring it. See pg 62, 3rd to last paragraph.

Ah, good to know. I don't want to get too off topic, but juraigamer mentioned an IG vehicle which has stealth, what vehicle would that be?

not really wanting to get off topic but all guard vehiclas have a Camo Netting upgrade that gives them this rule

on topic: The SM book allows for alot of variaty in your army, while all the other books are more specilised in something.

I'm also a detractor of the TFC, as, in my opinion, something has got to be able to consistently make a difference in the outcome of games to be worth taking. Most of the times I've seen TFCs used, the other player just spreads out and they do nothing. I mean, if you're already taking a MoF, then it's a fine upgrade, but it's not worth taking that HQ choice just for the TFC.

Anyways, back to the OP, I think one that's been shockingly missing so far is sternguard. For like 300 points you get 10 dudes with combi-meltas in a drop pod. They get to safely deepstrike right next to your opponent and then combat squad out, blowing up two vehicles from point-blank range with melta, and your opponent doesn't have a WHOLE lot they can do to stop it. Expensive, but it easily and consistently gets its points back against most armies, and also shuts down your opponent's choiciest long-range support unit(s) turn 1.

TFC is a Heavy Support choice, not an upgrade for MotF. Maybe you are thinking of the Conversion Beamer.

And no, 330 pts of Sternguard will give you only a 10-man with 4 combi-melta + 1 Power Fist in a Drop Pod. That 330 pts is down the drain on the opponent's turn. Without that "insurance" power-fist, a 5-man BA assault squad in that Razorback is gonna punk your squad :(.

Edit - bah, need to refresh the page before I respond. Ninja'd

Ailaros wrote:sternguard. For like 300 points you get 10 dudes with combi-meltas in a drop pod. They get to safely deepstrike right next to your opponent and then combat squad out, blowing up two vehicles from point-blank range with melta, and your opponent doesn't have a WHOLE lot they can do to stop it. Expensive, but it easily and consistently gets its points back against most armies, and also shuts down your opponent's choiciest long-range support unit(s) turn 1.

I don't know man, what if your opponent just has a bunch of rhinos razorbacks or other light transports? You blow up two of those which at best eliminates 160ish points of the enemy army (assuming special weapon razorbacks) and then your sternguard gets shot to pieces resulting in you losing around 300 points yourself.

The sternguard melta attack doesn't seem very points efficient to me

Right, DP sternguard aren't good against ALL armies, but any army that has at least two units that cost roughly 160+ points apiece that can be HOSED by 5 melta or plasma guns is worthwhile to bring them. Plus, it's their ability to safely deploy anywhere on the board that is also part of their coolness, not just strictly their combi-weapons alone.

And you don't expect them to survive, so don't bother with a power fist. Yes, they're a really expensive suicide unit, but they also have the capability to do more damage than their cost to certain key units turn 1 without your opponent having much they can do (other than like castling in a corner or something).

If your opponents regularly fail to bring units that cost at least 150 points (like I've been known to do), then yeah, not the ultimate (though still not worthless), but against armies that do, you're probably going to do a lot.

I mean, compare the sternguard with 5x melta and 5x plasma against a land raider full of termies. Top of turn 1, you show up right next to his raider and the 5x melta squad blows up the raider, and the 5x plasma squad shoots the termies. Instead of 500 points of raiders and thunder hammer termies barreling into your lines, they now have 150 points of CC termies stuck in their deployment zone and have to start the game by running out of difficult terrain.

Likewise if you took the all-melta option, a battlewagon full of MANz is going to go from awesome to stupid in a single turn - turn 1. Basically, sternguard are a cheap, effective way of dealing with deathstars, and are still pretty good when your opponent brings even moderately expensive non-horde units.

You gave the best case scenario. What about every GK list that doesn't have Paladins in it? Sternguard are a waste. What about pretty much every SW list? Waste. Most BA lists too. Would Strenguard work well against Dark Eldar? Probably not from what little I know. Orks? Waste. I don't seem them being very good against a crap ton of lists.

If your opponents regularly fail to bring units that cost at least 150 points

hold on there man, units? No. How about transports. You need to blow up a transport most of the time to even get to a unit. Destroy one rhino, congratulations, you took away 35-40 points. Maybe with the other half of the Sternguard you shoot what is inside ... then all your sternguard die. You are down 330ish points (let's face it, the drop pod is essentially useless even if it doesn't get destroyed) and what did you do to the enemy? In most cases, not nearly that much.

Seems like they ONLY work if someone has fielded expensive tanks or land raider type transports

Sternguard vs Devastators = good. HW are cheap to upgrade sternguard. Yes it makes them immobile but with 30" range bolters it is more a matter of good synergy with the HW. ML, Plasma Cannon good. Heavy Flamers are also a good option. No matter what 30" range bolters can be golden vs DE and a lot of other opponents. Bring your purifiers within 12" and we will see how crappy the sternguard is as they light you up with AP3 rounds.

Personnally, sternguard are much better than TH/SS terminators. I can get 3 sternguard out there in rhinos and buffed up for the cost of 10 TH/SS terminators in two landraiders. Firepower is where vanilla has its edge and TH/SS termies are nothing more than a gimmick army until we start talking 2500 pt games.

If you're taking DP sternguard and then flopping them out just to blow up a single rhino, you're doing something very, very wrong.

The key is targeting your opponent's more expensive units (because an enemy army that doesn't present a target more expensive than a rhino is going to be pretty rare), and to combat squad so you can attack more than one at a time.

Plus, while sternguard excel in being able to take out things by themselves, they don't HAVE to. SM armies' biggest strength is long-range direct-fire weapons. Dropping in the sternguard, and then starting your shooting phase by throwing around some devestator or predetor or LC dreadnought fire (amongst many options), and THEN cleaning up the mess with sternguard is still a viable strategy.

Also, sternguard don't even need to strictly speaking make their points back to be effective. If you are able to shut down only 200 points of stuff when they arrive, but you managed to do it in such a way where you just shut down a huge chunk of your opponent's long-range anti-tank capability before it even got a shot off, well, that has future benefits that continue to roll down through the end of the game.

Joe Mama wrote:You gave the best case scenario. What about every GK list that doesn't have Paladins in it? Sternguard are a waste. What about pretty much every SW list? Waste. Most BA lists too. Would Strenguard work well against Dark Eldar? Probably not from what little I know. Orks? Waste. I don't seem them being very good against a crap ton of lists.

Seriously, go to the armylist section of dakka and find me a bunch of lists that contain ZERO units that cost 100 or more points.

I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath...

Ailaros wrote:If you're taking DP sternguard and then flopping them out just to blow up a single rhino, you're doing something very, very wrong.

Try reading better. If reading is the not the problem, try responding with a shred of inellectual honesty.

The key is targeting your opponent's more expensive units

And like the point I made earlier, many lists, especially MSU style lists don't have expensive units, and what they do have is meched up... more on that later.

Seriously, go to the armylist section of dakka and find me a bunch of lists that contain ZERO units that cost 100 or more points.

Oh, so you are seriously being intellectually dishonest? Good to know.

1) Your 100 point cut off has nothing to do with what we are talking about. First you said 150, now you said 100. Ridiculous. Your sternguard cost 300-330 points, so who, besides a dishonest person arguing in bad faith, would pick 100 points as the cut off number for whether sternguard are points efficient? The only other person besides one who is not arguing in good faith, is someone who failed elementary school math, which I am sure you did not do. Now you are free to have strong opinions and argue your point strongly, but the goal here is to have reasonable discussions, and hopefully add knowledge to lurkers and others reading these posts. When you completely mislead people, when you argue just to "win the internets" you don't help anyone. Sternguard are 300+ points, as a rough guide they need to handle the same amount of points as they cost. Not 100 points. What an absurd, dishonest statement!

2) Once again you ignored my point on units in transports. The opponent may not have a unit worth more than 260, in a transport not worth more than 40 (or put another way, the transport plus the unit will total less than 300 points). In fact, against a large number of lists, this will be very likely. So what do your sternguard do there? You have to settle for blowing up a transport to get to a unit. Using half your unit, 150-170 points, to blow up a measly transport is what in many situations will be known as a WASTE of points. Using the other half to hit what is inside is unlikely you will do enough damage to make up for the fact that all the sternguard will die next turn do to being right next to the opponent's forces.

Now you made one actually halfway decent point about sternguard not having to strictly make their points back as they could tactically aid the rest of your forces, but honestly, since you responded with such a misleading and unhelpful argument everywhere else, there is no reason to continue discussing with you. Next time try more honest reasoned debate and less win the internets any way possible. Goodbye.

Tactical terminators.