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Sweet Jesus, tone the anger down.

You don't need to shoot sternguard at rhinos, you have the rest of your list to do that.

If you shut down someone's key unit(s) turn one, they have to change their plans. If that unit(s), were long-ranged shooters, you get to shut them down before they get a shot off. It is easy for sternguard to make their points back, given that there are lots of units in lots of armies that cost 150 points apiece, but they don't NEED to make their points back to still be worth taking.

As such, even in the one case you bring up, razorspam, sternguard are still useful. Your lascannons blow up a few razorbacks and your sternguard blow up a couple more. Turn 1 starts with your opponent having a serious dent in his razorback supply, and thus razorback strategy (and also now has units already in his face).

I await your arguments for why it isn't useful in general to take sternguard that don't hinge on a single example or bombastically belligerent statements about how I'm "cheating" to "win" an "argument".

If your going to drop sternguard as the melta-bomb do so in 5 man blocks.
Just as you don't see 10 man fire dragon squads used, you should not use 10 man sternguard squads. 5 can do the job of suicide-melta just fine.

No force should drop 10 sternguard without support. I see someone arguing that their 10 meltaguns are only going to wreck a transport. Since when was everyone an internet list tool that always look transports?

Those melta guns can shoot the contents of the transport, if it's present, since there will be some long range support that can blow it up.

I tend to use a 10 man melta squad dropping in with my two ironclads. The trick is I drop in the ironclads first, meaning those strenguard that drop are normally not next to my foes whole damn army.

@juraigamer: Are you dropping one 10-man Sternguard (presumably with 4+ combi-melta) in with two Ironclads at the same time or are they in two waves?

i.e. 3 Drop pods, one with 10-man Sternguards, 2 with Ironclad Dread.

I am not sure if Ironclad Dread is a good point sink. Am I missing something?

I'm a big fan of sternguard & use the all the time... however, I think the latest FAQ states that you can't combat squad as you deploy from a pod, making them much less useful as you can only target one opposing unit on the drop. Don't have it with me though so I'm going from memory.

Another nice perk in the vanilla dex is having pods that carry 12 men. A full squad plus two characters can make a difference.

Ailaros wrote:Sweet Jesus, tone the anger down.

It is not anger. It is a dissection of your post displaying a complete and utter lack of desire to discuss this issue with intellectual honesty. Which continued in your most recent post, as you made no effort to actually reply to what I wrote. This is an utterly deplorable way to conduct oneself online.

I am talking about points efficiency. When MSU is king, when many units are in transports, a Sternguard 'bomb' attack is not going to work well. It is going to be a bad play. You are essentially paying 300-330 points for two long ranged AT attacks (long ranged in that you hit the enemy far away from where the bulk of your forces are). Not two attacks a turn. Two attacks total, they are combi-weapons, and as a bonus the strenguard will likely all die the following turn as they are right next to the enemy.

You're up against Space Wolves. You drop down. You can shoot long fangs - who are in cover - you won't kill enough to make your points back. Not even close. You can shoot a las-plas razor or whatever instead. Ok, that's like 75 points. Maybe you shoot two of them. That's 150. You spent 300 of your long ranged AT to destroy 150 of his. You die in two seconds to rapid fire bolters. Wow. Good play. Repeat with many mech BA lists, or sit around with your thumb in your mouth as you wait for a BA jump pack list to show up.

You're up against GK. Whoops, he has Strike Squads, you don't have a good place to drop down. Darn.
You're up against GK another time, he has henchmen spam. Most of his units are cheap and everyone is meched up. You settle for blowing up a cheap transport, thus making your sternguard extremely points inefficient. Or, perhaps your opponent is a moron and he doesn't put his Dreads right next to coteaz's transport (where coteaz's out of turn shooting sequence will make the sternguard cry). Good for you, your sternguard performed almost performed well enough against a poor opponent (assuming the GK didn't get first turn, which he does over 70% of the time). Wow.

Of course, let's not forget horde armies, where more often than not, the sternguard 'bomb' is a waste of time.
Probably isn't great against Dark Eldar either.

More often than not, the sternguard "bomb" option is going to put you in a bad position rather than a good one. For an old codex like the space marines, you need every advantage you can get. Botching the list building from the start is a terrible idea.

Why the hell did I write all that, it is not like you are going to reply honestly. Lurkers, hopefully you found that helpful.


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juraigamer wrote: I see someone arguing that their 10 meltaguns are only going to wreck a transport.

A transport? Is that a typo, because no one said that.

As for your comment on everyone taking transports, no one said that either. But many people do (take transports). It is more common than not, unless your local meta is what's the word, BAD. And if it is bad, there is no reason to discuss good list building, since inferior units with inferior tactics can perform well against inferior lists and inferior opponents. But back to your comment about transports. Try at least to make honest, reasonable statements. It is not EVERYONE or NO ONE taking transports, it is the probability that a given list you face will have their troops in transports. That probability is high. The probability of a list having a land raider equivalent for you to take out is low.

You do make a good point Joe. I use (or more correctly, have the opportunity to use) the sternguard "bomb" nearly every game, however... it's never just the sternguard (or they get their *ss handed to them). I drop two pods... sternguard and an iron clad usually, with supporting characters. Then I have a unit of scout bikes and two LS storms with attending scouts with combi-meltas and melta bombs in immediate support with a couple of razorbacks providing long ranged support. If all goes well, I'm able to overwhelm a flank of the opponent's army without too much surviving to strike back the following turn. Of course, this only ever works once on a given opponent as the alpha-strike stratagem is fairly easily thwarted. But it is really fun and gratifying when it works.

Gitsplitta you make a good point as well. It is hard to evaluate units in a vacuum, and you are right, a strenguard bomb pretty much needs to have a list built around it to perform alright. But like you said, it's an alpha-strike move that can be countered. Won't see it at many serious tournaments.

Which is not to say to never do it, I take fun not as good stuff too sometimes, but the OP is about best bang for the points. Not most fun.

leohart wrote:@juraigamer: Are you dropping one 10-man Sternguard (presumably with 4+ combi-melta) in with two Ironclads at the same time or are they in two waves?

i.e. 3 Drop pods, one with 10-man Sternguards, 2 with Ironclad Dread.

I am not sure if Ironclad Dread is a good point sink. Am I missing something?

Wave 1, both ironclads, strenguard in reserve in their droppod.

Ironclads are premier vehicle killers, and tough as nails. av 13 everywhere but rear armor mean it's tough to crack for anyone, and if you drop and pop smoke, then run a few inches, there is a av 13 wrecking ball in their face turn 1. They also come with extra armor, a melta gun, a CCW that basically has ap1, and the move through cover USR. A steal.


Also I'm sorry if you need to get all defensive about my symmetrization of one of your counterpoints to using sternguard, but I'm not going to let you say anyone who doesn't take transports is bad. Every army except DE can function without transports very well, and those armies can get more models on the table, with less danger from anti-tank weapons taking a few out from a lucky shot. Some units, like assault terminators, work best with transports, and if you don't think a strong list isn't going to have some sort of deathstar unit/vehicle, you haven't played enough.

juraigamer wrote:I'm not going to let you say anyone who doesn't take transports is bad.

Oh, so you are restricting speech now? Ok Stalin. LOL.

Also, I didn't say anyone who doesn't take any transports is bad. Please read more carefully, and/or ask for clarification if you don't understand. Now to repeat and elaborate a little bit: I strongly implied good lists usually have vehicles, so if your local meta has almost no vehicles, then yes, it is bad / non-competitive compared to what else is out there. (Also note that bad meta, bad lists etc; is not bad people and bad people are not bad meta or bad lists. You are not your list). Hopefully that cleared things up for you.

@labmouse you are slightly mistaken about atsknf, it only allows you to auto-fail a moral check not auto fall back. In assault if you decide to fall back you still have to pass the initiative test if you lose you take fearless wounds.

@Pony_law: oh man, you are talking about Combat Tactics.

Interesting suggestion by Alairos. As was already stated, Thunderfire cannon is solo HS choice and therefore not dependent on HQ you take and while staying true to the original nature of this thread - for 100 points it provides you with very good shooting capability and flexibility againt various targets, solid durability for point if gunner is hit and greatly increased surviability of tactical combat squad camping nearby (in possibly fortified area) by servo-harness techmarine - if gun is blown.

Whilst I do not disagree with statement that biggest strength of vanilla space marines is in "long-range direct-fireweapons" I am really confused why, of so many options, thoe doubtlessly worst were picked (against compared to their point valute to tapy "in-topic") as devastators (150 point for 4 misile launchers? or would you rather prefer 230 for 4 lacannons?) and las dread for 145 (Isuppose you took HF+DCCW or ML as a second upgrade) - if poster, of course, was aware of their point costs and was therefore able to compare them to unit competing for slot in the same book or similiar units from other codices.

I am not saying that if you take slightly overcosted devastators or las-dread, that your list thus becomes terribad and incapable of winning. Player factor and dices are much more important than few point wasted on combinations of firepower which would have been a little cheaper when taken elsewhere. However point of this topic was to name the most point efficient units in vanilla space marines codex and under these conditions mentionned examples simply cannot compete. But to give las+hf dreadnought a little credit it deserves - it works well as counter-assault element in MSU razorback spams, which vanilla space marines are simply not capable of under competitive circumstances. So its a good unit even for its point cost, just simply not for this book.

All this makes me unfortunately very dubious about suggestion of 10 sterns with combis in pod (which costs 335 points) along with comments like safe-deep strike. All these little nuances and proclamations makes me wonder jut how much does actually poster know about all of this at all. Again I must agree with Alairos about something - it does not work against all armies. Better question of course is - against which armies does it actually works (especially along with such gems as devastators and las dreads for fire support - you know for taking down those pesky rhinos). I am not sure how many experiences does Alairos have with playing pods or againt them (in hands of good player of course - which is something we cannot judge), because there are so many factors which makes it far from "safe" and "kill two tanks" and that defending player cannot do "much" about it...

...But lets get back to the point where I was thinking about armies this could be effective againt. For sure not every army can throw expendable units in front to provide cover for more important stuff and assuring that no unit will get near them (to assault or to be in melta range). Alairos mentionned that player shooting at rhinos with drop-sterns is doing something wrong but what if he does not have any choice at all? What if rhinos are in front providing cover for preds, dreads or speeders in orderly formation supported by codex astartes - leaving you at best shooting at target in cover outside of melta range or at worst not being in range of melta shots at all. And what happens if your las-dreads destroys those rhinos/razorbacks? Tac squads/grey hunters/assaults marines/dominions/battle sisters... will pop leaving you in exactly same situation. And I really do not understand how podding is reliable and safe. Sure internal guiding system is cool (if poster of course is aware of exactly how it works at all) but it can be brutally double-edged weapon. Melta shots have range of 12, and melta range is 6 - that means you will need to DS at point blank range - what if you scatter few inches back? IF you want to combat squad you cannot use one best angle for shot, you need to use two - and what if there is an obstacle? And how can you know in which direction will you scatter? Perhaps obstacle will appear after scattering not strictly away but simply to the left or tp the right. How does actually this help you to get alpha-strike with short-ranged meltas dependend on hit on scatter dice? A little too pricey - 335 points which pretty much cannot scatter or it will die while doing very little or no damage at all (that is why pods are played in greater numbers with one or two locator beacons mixed in so flamers and meltas will be actually pretty reliable).

And now lets get to the double-edged sweet part which happens ocasionaly to pods without locator beacon. What if your opponent know how to play against pods? Sure pods in large or small numbers are very effective against bad players, but what if youre not againt bad player. Pod which scatters onto imp. terrain or unit will have to move to nearet avaiable place to land - what if your enemy is actually clever enough to provide several "landing zones" for your pod so actually only pod fits there - all he needs is that you scatter at least 3-4 inches toward him, then his landing zone will be nearest spot where pod can land and then your sterns cannot disembark and are removed from play as casualties - and all because you do not have locator beacon and use very expensive squad which needs to be in point-blank range to be effective so you have to risk it whether you like it or not. And what if opponent deploys in corner? Leaving a bit space behind his units near the table edges. What if you will not hit with pod and scatter onto enemy lines and then nearet "safe" spot will be behind his units where your pod will be partially off map - enjoy misshap, because end of table is not considered obstacle for internal guiding system.

Different people have different opinions on different topics and often neither of them is right or wrong as every assumption or oponion may be vaild or false in its own merits - unfortunately for you Alairos, when do you look like you are not familiar with codex:space marines contents at all, it heavily undermines your opinions and it does not matter how much "truthfull" they may or may not be.

I cannot help myself now but to return a little to the past : When someone says he is not doing something, it does not mean he is really not doing it...

Project2501 wrote:Tactical terminators.

I disagree. BA Tactical Terminators have Red Thirst and can have FNP. SW Terminators can be fielded to fill a variety of roles, carry different weapons, and use wound allocation to keep the unit alive longer. DA can mix in TH/SS and count as scoring. BT can take an extra heavy weapon and be upgraded to Tank Hunters.

I am pretty sure Project2501 was trolling.

Drop-podding sternguard are a strategic asset. Much like a drop-podding dread. You use them to alter how your opponent plays to your benefit.
If you have first turn, they have to reserve out or protect their vital targets. Joe mama, you gave an extreme example on one side. Where the opponent is playing strictly MSU. Not all opponents play MSU and they will need to protect their Land raider/ravagers/manticores from turn one hot melta death. And even if all you get is transports, you are still altering their game plan. Against BW spam or wyche spam, knocking them out of transports then makes that unit have to slog across the table.

If they go first and move up to engage you, you then have a significant threat in their rear arc that they have to take care of. Which will make them have to split off part of their force to address it or you will continue to pelt away at their infantry from the rear. And if they do dedicate forces to getting rid of them, then you will be distracting fire from your main force.

In regards to the GK comment, most people do not play with strike squads. Especially not in the Coteaz list you mentioned. The GK player can use Coteaz to try and mitigate this, but then he would have to start outside of a trasnport, as you cannot use his ability through fire points. So you are again affecting your opponents deployment.

Marshal_Gus wrote:

Project2501 wrote:Tactical terminators.

I disagree. BA Tactical Terminators have Red Thirst and can have FNP. SW Terminators can be fielded to fill a variety of roles, carry different weapons, and use wound allocation to keep the unit alive longer. DA can mix in TH/SS and count as scoring. BT can take an extra heavy weapon and be upgraded to Tank Hunters.

leohart wrote:same price or cheaper + just as good or better.

BA: can get red thirst, but if they do, fearless can hurt them, especially wielding PFs (swinging last more often them not) which also kind of limits the usefulness of the extra Init. Combat tactics is better than fearless and FC is wasted with PFs IMO. Also, in order for them to get FnP, you have to cheat and attach a seperate unit entry, the sanguinary priest as an IC for more points and can be singled out in CC.

SW: for the exact same loadout (1 storm bolter and power sword, 4xstorm bolter and power fist, and a heavy weapon) are 5pts more expensive. Also, wound allocation shenanigans only works with units comprised of models that have multiple wounds.

BT: don't have their dex, but suspect points cost is higher for what you mentioned. Also RZ and having to test to shoot at enemies farther away is a pain.

DA: don't have their dex, but suspect points cost is an issue again. Especially when you figure that in order for them to score, Belial must be taken (again, another completely seperate codex unit entry) so there's a 130? points right there.

At any rate, going by the OP, I don't see how I'm off the mark. If my lack of codexeses is hampering me, feel free to let me know how.




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Naked predator destructor?


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Land raider and drop pod, 2 extra seats in each for SM.

Dok wrote:Joe mama, you gave an extreme example on one side.

No I didn't. I gave multiple examples over multiple posts. Take care to read my posts more closely so you do not make this mistake again. Although wait a minute, later in your same post you talk about a few of my random hypothetical list examples for GK, so it seems that you changed your mind halfway through your post on how many examples I gave. Also note that I am talking about utility and points efficiency. More often than not, based on the general "meta" (on what lists people generally bring), a Sternguard "bomb" is not going to be the best move for Codex Space Marines. If everyone and their mother ran Land Raiders, hey sure, good move with the Sternguard bomb, but that's atyplical. If that is what everyone does near you, go for the bomb.

as you cannot use [Coteaz] ability through fire points.

Is that a fact I missed, or is this still under debate? (Don't want a huge tangent here, I just don't know if this is "settled" or not).

Project2501 wrote:BT: don't have their dex, but suspect points cost is higher for what you mentioned. Also RZ and having to test to shoot at enemies farther away is a pain.

I have their codex. They cost the same price as regular terminators from the C:SM. However, for 3 additional points per model, you can choose to give the unit tank hunters or furious charge. So, for 200 +15 for 5 tank hunters+(cost of either 2xAssCannons or 2xCMLs) you can either have 8 shots of Str7 AssCannons with rending or 4 shots of S9 kraks (versus vehicles, obviously). Also, tank hunters will make the storm bolters S5, which will glance a rhino. So there's that, too!

Also, the target priority (test to avoid shooting the closest unit) was removed in the latest FAQ. RZ won't really hamper them (unless they fail their test and run off the board...).

Joe Mama wrote:

Dok wrote:Joe mama, you gave an extreme example on one side.

No I didn't. I gave multiple examples over multiple posts. Take care to read my posts more closely so you do not make this mistake again. Although wait a minute, later in your same post you talk about a few of my random hypothetical list examples for GK, so it seems that you changed your mind halfway through your post on how many examples I gave. Also note that I am talking about utility and points efficiency. More often than not, based on the general "meta" (on what lists people generally bring), a Sternguard "bomb" is not going to be the best move for Codex Space Marines. If everyone and their mother ran Land Raiders, hey sure, good move with the Sternguard bomb, but that's atyplical. If that is what everyone does near you, go for the bomb.

as you cannot use [Coteaz] ability through fire points.

Is that a fact I missed, or is this still under debate? (Don't want a huge tangent here, I just don't know if this is "settled" or not).

No its not under debate. It was settled in the last FAQ.

Edit - Nevermind

I am assuming Coteaz needs line of sight for his non-psychic power to work, if so the FAQ says he can't do that from inside a vehicle.

labmouse42 wrote:
Free Movement
Combat tactics can allow you to get some free movement on the opponents turn, allowing you some useful tricks. Lets say that its the bottom of the game, and you went first. You can auto-fall back to land on an objective. It also lets you get further back from an assault unit, such as Twolf calvary.

There are some good tactics in this post, but this free move you mention might be a bad idea. If you fall back on the last turn, you won't regroup until the beginning of your next (which won't happen) and will be removed/counts as destroyed.

Dakka preds, biker captains, vulcan, null zone librarians, sternguard and combat tactics. These are huge advantages that the SM codex has. Use them wisely.

Libby with goi and vod can be a great distractor espeacially with a ss.

Draigo wrote:Libby with goi and vod can be a great distractor espeacially with a ss.

Only work with Librarian in Terminator armour. It is also very tricky since GOI might off his units. GOI alone means he will be ID.

leohart wrote:

Draigo wrote:Libby with goi and vod can be a great distractor espeacially with a ss.

Only work with Librarian in Terminator armour. It is also very tricky since GOI might off his units. GOI alone means he will be ID.

You mean vortex? Gate doesnt kill his guys.

Draigo wrote:

leohart wrote:

Draigo wrote:Libby with goi and vod can be a great distractor espeacially with a ss.

Only work with Librarian in Terminator armour. It is also very tricky since GOI might off his units. GOI alone means he will be ID.

You mean vortex? Gate doesnt kill his guys.

It does, roll double => remove one model if he travels with other people. It is the same chance as dangerous terrain test.

leohart wrote:

Draigo wrote:

leohart wrote:

Draigo wrote:Libby with goi and vod can be a great distractor espeacially with a ss.

Only work with Librarian in Terminator armour. It is also very tricky since GOI might off his units. GOI alone means he will be ID.

You mean vortex? Gate doesnt kill his guys.

It does, roll double => remove one model if he travels with other people.

Why would you put him with anyone? Kinda defeats the purpose of annoying distractor.

Because if you spent 125 pts on an HQ, you want him not to die from 2 lascannon shots.

leohart wrote:Because if you spent 125 pts on an HQ, you want him not to die from 2 lascannon shots.

Thats why you give him the gear. Plus I spend 150 for crowe and I could care less if he gets killed by 2 lascanons. So a cheap hq dying isnt all that big a deal, but that libby will make you fire at him or he drops a str 10 on you.