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I keep losing. No matter how much money I spend, no matter what I do, no matter how I fight, I keep getting tabled. The main guys at my local GW I fight against are Khord marines, plauge marines, blood ravens, dark eldar and IG, and I havnt won since my first week of playing (3 months ago). I really want a victory against something, but no matter what I keep getting stomped so hard, so bad that by the time I'm done playing, I only killed three guys after my army got massacred. here is my list:


HQ
Captain Red Novem (pedro kantor's rules)-175p
Chaplain Markus (Jump pack, Plasma Pistol)-130p
Elites
Dreadnaught 'Drake' (CCW, MultiMelta, heavy flamer)-115p
Sternguard squad 'SandStone' (10 man squad, x5 combi-meltas)-250p
Terminator squad 'The Good Guys' (5 terminators, Assault Cannon, x1 chainfist)-235p
Troops
Tactical Squad 'Charlie' (10 man, Teleport Homer, Flamer, Missile Launcher)-185p
Tactical squad 'Foxtrot' (10 man, meltagun, plasma cannon, Power Weapon,)-195p
Scout squad 'SwiftFoot' (5 man, x4 CCW and pistol, combi-melta, melta-bombs, heavy bolter )-100p
Transports
Rhino (dozer blade, Hunter-killer missile)-50p
Razorback (Lascannon, dozer blade)-80p
Rhino (Extra-Armor, Hunter killer missile, dozer blade)-65p
Fast Attack
Land Speeder typhoon-90p
Assault Troopers (x5 man, Jump packs, Flamer, sarge has power fist, storm shield, )-150p

Total!
1,885

(last three games I havnt played the rhino bulds, assault marines and chaplain, but I know that wont make a difference.P


I need help. I am thinking of getting something besides terminators like two vanilla vindicators, but I dont have enough money to be wasteing on things that I dont know how much it would help. Do I need to trade pedro for a vanilla captain? I mean, all the games I played he sat with the sternguard plinking away like a tard and not doing anything useful.


I am just sick of getting tabled. thanks for your time

Well, as I played Eldar as my first army since i was like 11, I learned that each unit must have a role, and be aimed towards that role to exclusion of almost all else heh.

So ill go through your list, and suggest things to help it

HQ
Kantor is nails, nothing wrong there

Remove the plasma pistol on the chaplain. It frees pts, and as he is gonna get stuck in fast, he doesn't need firepower, IMHO

ELITES
dread is fine
sternguard are fine, but i would suggest giving em a drop pod with points you'll save by taking out unnecessary things
termies are fine (but i personally don't like em... not sure why... maybe an elf thing... lol)

Troops
Tact squad is good, i assume split into a mobile combat squad and a ranged? If so, a powerfist is always welcome
Same for 2nd unit, power fists are your friend
Now, the scout. I would recommend, from personal experience, giving em camo cloaks and snipers and drop the rest of the upgrades (bolter is fine tho) and sit em in cover with your objective

Trasports
I would drop it all and take:
2 razor backs with las-plas combo, and maybe extra armour
then take a drop pod or 2 (for sternguard, and maybe dred)

Fast Attack
Typhoon can be support for scouts (that is the scout one, right?)
Now with the assault marines, personally i dont like em. If you want a CC unit take vanguard, but dont deep strike! it's unpredictable and can let you down at crucial moments.
If you insist on the normal marines, drop the shield and flamer. Your a cc unit, stick to that and only that


No idea what points that'll come to etc, book not at hand, but if ya can try fit in that, could do pretty well.

Tactics would be to sit with the heavy weapons with scouts at objective laying down fire, remember to shoot what can do most damage. Sternguard show up first turn in pod and roast a tank. Chaplain and vanguard/assault marine rush forward, hugging cover. Other halves of the combat squads go forth in razorbacks and claim objectives/ offer close support for sterguard and assault marines. kantor can go in what squad you please, sterguard could be a risk, but could be worth it.


Hope this helps

Von Chogg

Oh well this is and easy fix.

You have a dreadnaught geared to be close, TH/SS termies that have to be close, and sternguard that do much better when they are close.

Go get you two drop pods for the sternguard and the dread.

The chaplin could use either a combi-melta and/or meltabombs. The plasma pistol really doesn't help much.

The termies are fine, but a teleport homer or locator beacon (on a drop pod maybe...) will help them be more effective

Drop the scouts, they honesty aren't helping with the heavy bolter. Scout squads should be in larger numbers, unless sporting sniper rifles.

Increase the size of the assault marines, they can't make it to their target and do enough damage at their current size.

Drop the typhoon for now. Lose one rhino for now and take off the hunter killer missiles. Take the tactical squad with the flamer and missle and combat squad, half in the razorback, the other half (with the missile guy) on a hill somewhere.

Give the other tactical squad leader a power weapon, and give the sternguard a power sword or a power fist. Attack pedro to the unit as well, in deep strike.

Take off the other rhino, get another drop pod, remove the plasma cannon from the one tactical squad and you're fine then.

Standard actions during the game:
Deploy the one tactical, combat squadded, and put the chaplin with the assault marines somewhere of use. Place pedro with the sternguard unit
Then drop the dread and either the tactical squad or the sterguard (Whichever is more tactically sound based on the situation) and then go from there.

Without any batreps to figure out why you're actually getting tabled, I would imagine it has to do something with the fact that there's only like 4 decent ranged weapons in that whole list.

Drop the Chaplain and Assault Marines. 6 Assault Marines are going to wiff on anything.

10 Sternguard with 5 Combi-Meltas cost 275pts, not 250.

The Scouts are not optimized, they have CCW/Pistols, with a sergeant with lots of wargear, and then a heavy weapon that prevents them from moving.

I'd drop all upgrades on the Rhinos and the Dozerblade on the Razorback.

Assuming a 1500pt list with what you have, I'd do:

Pedro Kantor w/ Sternguard

And, normal terminators are junk at the moment.

Get a drop pod for the Dreadnought if you are going to use one. A dread without a pod is going to spend most of the game walking, and has a good chance of doing nothing.


I'd use (from what you currently have):

HQ:

Pedro Kantor - 175

Elites:

Dreadnought, Drop Pod - 150pts

Sternguard - 9 Sternguard, 5 Combi Melta, Rhino - 285pts

Troops:

Tactical Squad - Melta Gun, Missile Launcher, Razorback(Lasback) - 250pts

Tactical Squad - Flamer, Plasma Cannon, Rhino - 210pts

Fast Attack:

Land Speeder Typhoon - Typhoon Launcher, Heavy Bolter - 90pts


That'll leave you at 1160 pts, giving you room to get more speeders, vindicators, etc. With Pedro Kantor, you get scoring Sternguard, allowing you to drop the scouts and still maintain 3 scoring units at 1500pt~ games. I'd suggest getting upgrades to make the rhino attached to the tactical squad a razorback.

The dropping Dread can be artfully dropped to be behind enemy vehicles, and to give your dread a cover save from the rest of the enemies army. The Multimelta + a charge should destroy an enemy vehicle, and cause some havoc.

Going to think about it some more, but can you give us a general points range for people to work with?

Crazyterran wrote:Drop the Chaplain and Assault Marines. 6 Assault Marines are going to wiff on anything.

10 Sternguard with 5 Combi-Meltas cost 275pts, not 250.

The Scouts are not optimized, they have CCW/Pistols, with a sergeant with lots of wargear, and then a heavy weapon that prevents them from moving.

I'd drop all upgrades on the Rhinos and the Dozerblade on the Razorback.

Assuming a 1500pt list with what you have, I'd do:

Pedro Kantor w/ Sternguard

And, normal terminators are junk at the moment.

Get a drop pod for the Dreadnought if you are going to use one. A dread without a pod is going to spend most of the game walking, and has a good chance of doing nothing.


I'd use (from what you currently have):

HQ:

Pedro Kantor - 175

Elites:

Dreadnought, Drop Pod - 150pts

Sternguard - 9 Sternguard, 5 Combi Melta, Rhino - 285pts

Troops:

Tactical Squad - Melta Gun, Missile Launcher, Razorback(Lasback) - 250pts

Tactical Squad - Flamer, Plasma Cannon, Rhino - 210pts

Fast Attack:

Land Speeder Typhoon - Typhoon Launcher, Heavy Bolter - 90pts


That'll leave you at 1160 pts, giving you room to get more speeders, vindicators, etc. With Pedro Kantor, you get scoring Sternguard, allowing you to drop the scouts and still maintain 3 scoring units at 1500pt~ games. I'd suggest getting upgrades to make the rhino attached to the tactical squad a razorback.

The dropping Dread can be artfully dropped to be behind enemy vehicles, and to give your dread a cover save from the rest of the enemies army. The Multimelta + a charge should destroy an enemy vehicle, and cause some havoc.

Going to think about it some more, but can you give us a general points range for people to work with?

I want around 2,000 points to play with, and money is tight ATM. I dont have enough money to buy a drop pod yet, so I think the Dreadnaught may be walking a little I was really planning on replacing the terminators with two (papercraft) vindicators with nothing on them. they would equal about the same as the terminators. same with a pred with autocannon/lascannon and a vindicator. I am currently running the sternguard in the rhino (they only explode a tiny bit each match) and I am trying to give more targets with a rhino that has a melta-gun in the tact squad and a twin linked lascannon razorback sitting in the back (I have terrible luck with the las/plas, believe me I tried it)

but I probably dont know what to do (I am a noob after all) so any critiques? thanks ^^

I'd recommend using some vindicators. At least two. IMHO, you should lose the dread and get some attack bikes w/MMs or speeders w/MMs for fast moving heavy hitting AT. I'd also replace the termies with TH/SS termies so that they live longer.

Your 10 man Sternguard is begging for a drop pod. As is the dreadnought.

You may need to concentrate fire on your opponent and not spread yourself too thin. I still do that after years of playing! You have a mix of stuff so look at what your opponent can hurt you with (AP2 vs. your terminators for example). If you take down that big threat (their AP2) then your squads (terms) are much more survivable and may run wild on them.

Apply this to their anti tank vs. your vechiles, their close combat toys vs. your ranged squads, etc.

As a relatively new player, sit and think about what a squad can and can't do. Can your jumping Assalt Squad with HQ support really take out a full squad of Plague Marines? Do the math or run it a few times at home with proxies. If the answer is no, then you know to pump some firepower into them first to soften them up. A good bit of 40k for the newer guys is to learn what a squad CAN do vs. what it CAN do RELIABLY.

You should start by turning the Chaplain, Assault Troops, Scouts, and Dread into more combat squads with guns. Once your army is basically a bunch of Marines walking around with heavy weapons in combat squads you'll have a better idea of what you need to start swapping for transports etc. Ditch the combi-meltas too, you're not really set up to use your vets in a capacity that would require them, just save points and get more meltas across your army elsewhere.

Try playing smaller games. Its easier to build lists with synergy and see what works and what doesn't when you are working with 750 points instead of 2000.

Think of it as a challenge: only play at 750 until you get a win- then bump up to 1,000. Basically bump up by 250 points each time you win until you work your way up to 2000.

If you don't have money for more units, that's going to make it very difficult. You'll need to papercraft up some drop pods and/or play smaller games.

I agree that pods for the sternguard and dread would be a big help. Pedro can help the SG in assault and really enhances the terminators if they're near him. I like the previously-mentioned idea of podding and putting locator beacons on the pods so the terminators can pin-point drop. Dropping makes the assault cannon more viable, too. If you were rebuilding your army to be more of a ranged shooty force they should have a cyclone. Tactical Terminators really are pretty poor, though.

Actually, another alternative would be to switch codices and play Blood Angels. Your list would have many of the same problems, but the Assault Marines would become Troops, which instantly makes them more viable. it would also give you access to Sanguinary Priests; including a priest or two to give your assault marines, sternguard, and terminators Feel No Pain and Furious Assault would really enhance them. You'd lose Pedro, sadly, but could use him as another character.

Mannahnin wrote:If you don't have money for more units, that's going to make it very difficult. You'll need to papercraft up some drop pods and/or play smaller games.

I agree that pods for the sternguard and dread would be a big help. Pedro can help the SG in assault and really enhances the terminators if they're near him. I like the previously-mentioned idea of podding and putting locator beacons on the pods so the terminators can pin-point drop. Dropping makes the assault cannon more viable, too. If you were rebuilding your army to be more of a ranged shooty force they should have a cyclone. Tactical Terminators really are pretty poor, though.

Actually, another alternative would be to switch codices and play Blood Angels. Your list would have many of the same problems, but the Assault Marines would become Troops, which instantly makes them more viable. it would also give you access to Sanguinary Priests; including a priest or two to give your assault marines, sternguard, and terminators Feel No Pain and Furious Assault would really enhance them. You'd lose Pedro, sadly, but could use him as another character.

I was thinking about changing codex to blood angels, so I may try that next game. and I was thinking of dropping my terminators all together and getting a couple of tanks. also I threw the idea of having footslogging assault troops with a librarian attached to gate of infinity them close to a unit and assaulting them. and I was thinking of getting some scout bikers and infiltrateing close to a tank, drive up in the scout and movement phase, combi-melta it and maybe melta bomb it after. good plan?

akaean wrote:Try playing smaller games. Its easier to build lists with synergy and see what works and what doesn't when you are working with 750 points instead of 2000.

Think of it as a challenge: only play at 750 until you get a win- then bump up to 1,000. Basically bump up by 250 points each time you win until you work your way up to 2000.

Hmmm, okay i'll try that too, thats a good plan. If I cant win at 1,000 then I cant win at 2,000 right?

akaean wrote:Try playing smaller games. Its easier to build lists with synergy and see what works and what doesn't when you are working with 750 points instead of 2000.

Think of it as a challenge: only play at 750 until you get a win- then bump up to 1,000. Basically bump up by 250 points each time you win until you work your way up to 2000.

This, absolutely this. Work on your tactics and getting familiar with your opponents units. You need to know what your guys do first, then what your opponents guys do second, and how to counter what they do third. You will never win if you just blindly charge into your opponents lines and give him good position to wipe your guys out.

Thirded as far as small games goes. This game is a lot like starcraft. Units have counters, and throwing units against the counter will lead to a quick messy defeat.

Even then, using the right unit in the wrong way will lead to the same poor conclusion. For example, having MM Dreads is fine. But using those dreads to try to chase down fast skimmers is useless.

Marines are fairly forgiving due to their high save and generally good statline. However, they still have definite roles on the battlefield. This game is about ratios. You need to have the right ratio of ranged, assault, and durability or you will lose.

Like the first time I played a blood angel player. I had assault (lots of trukkz, biker boss, etc), lots of durability (30 strong mobz of shootaz, etc), but 0 ranged. My whole strategy was "powerklaw = win." Between a Baal predator playing assault cannon keep away and a dropped blood talon dread/multi-assault, I quickly learned the error of having no ranged power. Lets just say the only remaining model was a routed warbike.

Small games will help you to work out the proper ratio for your play style. I think about things in two prongs. Strengths and weaknesses. Recognize your strength, and don't worry about further re-enforcing that. For example, as Marines, durability should be a big strength. So don't worry so much about trying to protect yourself. So focus on trying to find the right ratio of ranged and assault. If you want a close combat/close range army, then focus on that, but always remember your weakness will be, such as a) being kited around the table by a faster army or b) encountering something even more dangerous than your own close combat troops. So work on minimizing those weaknesses by a). taking long ranged firepower designed to kill what scares you or b) take more maneuverability so things can't run from you and you can run from things that scare you.

Goresaw wrote:Thirded as far as small games goes. This game is a lot like starcraft. Units have counters, and throwing units against the counter will lead to a quick messy defeat.

Even then, using the right unit in the wrong way will lead to the same poor conclusion. For example, having MM Dreads is fine. But using those dreads to try to chase down fast skimmers is useless.

Marines are fairly forgiving due to their high save and generally good statline. However, they still have definite roles on the battlefield. This game is about ratios. You need to have the right ratio of ranged, assault, and durability or you will lose.

Like the first time I played a blood angel player. I had assault (lots of trukkz, biker boss, etc), lots of durability (30 strong mobz of shootaz, etc), but 0 ranged. My whole strategy was "powerklaw = win." Between a Baal predator playing assault cannon keep away and a dropped blood talon dread/multi-assault, I quickly learned the error of having no ranged power. Lets just say the only remaining model was a routed warbike.

Small games will help you to work out the proper ratio for your play style. I think about things in two prongs. Strengths and weaknesses. Recognize your strength, and don't worry about further re-enforcing that. For example, as Marines, durability should be a big strength. So don't worry so much about trying to protect yourself. So focus on trying to find the right ratio of ranged and assault. If you want a close combat/close range army, then focus on that, but always remember your weakness will be, such as a) being kited around the table by a faster army or b) encountering something even more dangerous than your own close combat troops. So work on minimizing those weaknesses by a). taking long ranged firepower designed to kill what scares you or b) take more maneuverability so things can't run from you and you can run from things that scare you.

Alright, thanks to everyone for the advice and help! I am gonna play a game today thats low points so I can really learn what to use and how to use them. here is my list, hope its good:

HQ:
Captain Red Novem (Pedro kantor)-175p
Troops:
tactical squad “charlie” (flamer, plasma cannon, Lasback)- 250p
tactical squad “foxtrot” (melta gun, Rocket launcher, rhino)- 210p
Heavy support:
vindicator-115p
Total!: 750p

Thanks to Crazyterran for the idea of making my list easier to read, and wish me luck!

Dok wrote:

akaean wrote:Try playing smaller games. Its easier to build lists with synergy and see what works and what doesn't when you are working with 750 points instead of 2000.

Think of it as a challenge: only play at 750 until you get a win- then bump up to 1,000. Basically bump up by 250 points each time you win until you work your way up to 2000.

This, absolutely this. Work on your tactics and getting familiar with your opponents units. You need to know what your guys do first, then what your opponents guys do second, and how to counter what they do third. You will never win if you just blindly charge into your opponents lines and give him good position to wipe your guys out.

My kids were having a hard time learning how to make a list. We were playing 1250 to 2000 point games.

Finally one day I hit upon a couple ideas. The first one was that we would limit games down to 300pts while still requiring an HQ and 2 troops. This puts a huge squeeze on just about every army. However, it makes you really think about what you want to take.

The next idea was to set up a few simple games where each side had only 1 troop. We would run Pink Horrors vs Termagants (same point size) or a Combat Squad versus Wyches. After a while you get a feel for exactly what that particular unit is good at. Try doing the same unit with different builds, such as with or without that sergeant.

Working within really tight constraints makes you think more tactically about what you need and how to do it. For example, is it more important to have a flamer or missile launcher in a combat squad? What is going to give you the most payback...

Once you have individual unit tactics down then you can mix a few units together to come up with an actual strategy. Doing this with 1800 or 2000 points when you don't understand the strengths/weaknesses of your units is somewhere between hard and impossible.

Sun Tzu: It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.

Interestingly, looking at that quote it sure sounds like you only have a chance if you know yourself...

Assault armies are hard and like someone said you're missing any real long range anti-tank. Also, before buying alot of vidicators, just get some way to play test them. Proxy stuff and when you find things that work well, use them.

Your army should have a lot of threats first or second turn. Drop pods are a way to make some of your units intimidate threats. You can get right in your opponents face and make them fight parts of your army on your terms.

I think you have too much melta. Melta is great when it works, but it is hard to get into position, and it sounds like your opponents are going to be really hard to out maneuver when you're this new to the game. With some more missile launchers, you'll at least see more immediate results and see an effect on your opponent when things start blowing up.

I can see how some games, your units are getting shot up one at a time, your melta never gets close enough and you can never really get your army into range with any real numbers surviving. BA's may indeed be a good army for you with some priests giving you feel no pain should help durability so you can get your primary assault army close enough to do some damage.

Yeah you've got too many different things that aren't contributing to a main battle plan. You've also got very few guns. This game is all about guns and presence.
How can you get your guns to an objective without gunning down the enemy's anti-transport guns? Drop pods? How can you hold it without gunning down his anti-marine guns?

Guns are the best way for a marine player to control and impact the opponent's movement and presence. If you can't threaten enemy units with guns or assault, they will just walk over you. Your list has few guns and no assault termies, which is probably why you're losing.

Some observations:
-Kantor like most SCs is pretty lame. All he really does is the scoring sternguard thing but you already have two full tactical squads so it's largely a waste of points. Take one objective and contest/neutralize the rest, as the saying goes.

-Sternguard is a great unit but people sometimes overestimate them. It can be hard to make good use of their bolters and if you don't they're a huge pointsink. This is why I think the melta pod tactic has some merit.

-Assault marines are sort of tricky to use. They're definitely handy but they're not an assault unit. Use them to threaten tanks with krak nades and mop up guardsmen. The PF and shield aren't worth it, especially not on a small unit.

-Chaplain costs 130pts for some power attacks and rerolls for your assmarines. You could instead have twice as many assmarines and twice the harassment potential.


If you told us what models you had to work with, or what your opponents are running, we could be more helpful.

Tiger9gamer wrote:
I want around 2,000 points to play with, and money is tight ATM. I dont have enough money to buy a drop pod yet, so I think the Dreadnaught may be walking a little I was really planning on replacing the terminators with two (papercraft) vindicators with nothing on them. they would equal about the same as the terminators. same with a pred with autocannon/lascannon and a vindicator. I am currently running the sternguard in the rhino (they only explode a tiny bit each match) and I am trying to give more targets with a rhino that has a melta-gun in the tact squad and a twin linked lascannon razorback sitting in the back (I have terrible luck with the las/plas, believe me I tried it)

but I probably dont know what to do (I am a noob after all) so any critiques? thanks ^^

Well, a coffee can makes a wonderful drop pod. Same shape. And maxwell house is already blue!

If you want to scratch build some vindicators you can get the vindy sprue for like 15 bucks. It comes with all the armor pieces. I am attempting that now, just going to glue them to some foam and try to sculp the missing areas.

Not winning in the first few months is no big thing, takes time to learn the rules and your army, how to judge each units abilty and effectiveness and how to judge distance / read your opponent.

Took me better part of a year to build up my army, adjust from 3rd to 5th and learn my army again - fielding different lists and trying out each unit in turn to figure its strengths and weeknesses.

I won about 3 games in that time, but in the last 6 months since I combined my experiences making a take all comers list thats served me admirably.

I'm basically saying it's an expensive, complex game and you shouldn't sweat losing a few games while you're setting up :p

Each loss should be teaching ypu what not to do and giving you ideas on what to try next.

Rinse and repeat till you're awesome.

(don't actually know marines myself and dark eldar are very unforgiving. Plus I did some silly lists like 10 walking grotesques at 1500pts which is why I took so long xD but I hope my rambling helps)

also, i noticed your army is kind of all over the place. you have some fast stuff, some shooty stuff, and some CC stuff. pick a door and go with it.

what i mean: if you want to shoot, then make everything as shooty as possible. if you wanna get stuck in and charge, then take units that do that better (assault marines, th/ss termies, vangaurds etc)

some things i know about marines from kicking their butt alot, but also having some tough games with them:

they dont really do both CC/shooting well. lack of numbers means you need to really focus on one aspect.
- tac marines are better shooters then fighters. even with a powerfist srg (wich is not needed imho). sit back with your free missile launcher, buy a plasma gun, and shoot stuff. do this as many times as possible in your list.
- assault marines are kind of "meh" yea they have good attacks and speed, but ack of power weapons or high init means other armies can take them down without much pause. things like incubi can and will beat them. th/ss termies are really your best CC unit but they need a delevery method, like a landraider, (dont pod or DS - youll be sitting for a turn with a "shoot me" sign) to really get the job done.
-dreads are also nice, but i find they work best sitting back and sniping. the 2-3 attacks in melee is either wasted because your hitting something small and not worth it anyway, you got charged to keep you from shooting, or your gonna get rocked by guys with melta grenades, power fists, hammers etc. unless you have multiple dreads, or guys going into the fight with him, keep them back and snipe. double autocannons (riflemen) is a popular build, but any of the ranged weapons are useful.
- your hq should be imho as cheap as possible. "captain disposable" wins with marines. my logic is this: in an army that needs as many bodies as it can find, loading up characters with pricey wargear, when that wargear probally wont earn itself back is a waste. spend those points on something else - like more guns, more men, more tanks. personally i wouldnt touch a character untill you hit the 2250 pt mark. but some people swear by them, so its your call there. (i just know every marine SC or loaded HQ ive fought as been aced pretty fast without much fight)
- in the vehicle "slot" go with something that compliments your army. having one vehicle dancing away on the edge, 2 more up the middle and another one sitting back is kind of asking for a butt kicking. keep your vehicles in the same role, and youll have much better results. transports should all follow the same idea, so all rhinos, or all combat squads taking razors/drop pods. if you want speed attacks, leave the vindi and preds at home, and load up the speeders. if you want "boom" then leave the speeders at home in favor of the vindi. long range snipe fits the pred/WW.

basically what im saying, if im saying anything at all is this: keep your army together, working together, and doing the same thing. dont spend points on upgrades you dont need, and try to be effiecent. also knowing your enemy helps. get and read the other codex's you face. learn what can do what, and where you need to direct your firepower. kill the dangerous stuff first and you should have better luck. keep in mind tho that it can take a while to get your first win. took me close to a year before i finally won a game. keep playing and learning, and youll get there. - gl

Allright! thanks to all who posted with thier advice! I am planning on playing small games to know how to use my army, much to the mockery of the veterans, and follow the advice you gave me.

thanks again and feel free to offer more advice ^^