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shandy al wrote: Played my Alpha Legion last night in first battle since the FAQ.
Increase in command points for battalion is great as it allows more Forward Operatives - i picked four units rather than the usual two.
Raptors (with two melta guns), 20 cultists, 5 man squad and a sorcerer.
The fact these are all then able to move and act normally meant i could put a lot more pressure on my opponent than normal.
Sorcerer was placed in front of my line so he could use Warptime to slingshot a contemptor dreadnought into doing a turn one charge.
Raptors did damage to a Sicaran which meant a ranged unit could finish it off and then charged some marines. The cultists just made a nuisance of themselves.
I do like the ability to be more aggressive with Forward Ops that the FAQ has given.
Infiltrating melta Raptors is neat, I'd never thought of that.
Seriously, post FAQ, I'm having a real hard time forcing myself to play not-alpha legion. It used to be a toss up between that and Renegades, but the hits to deepstrike/warptime and more CP tip the scales. If only Renegades had VoTL.
So that whole community post with the graphic that essentially said that the beta matched play rules don't apply to strategems and abilities for units already setup on the board at the start of the game (e.g. Cultist w/ the Tide of Traitors stratagem) - is that an official ruling as far as the beta rule goes? It's like a mini FAQ for a FAQ...
eternalxfl wrote: So that whole community post with the graphic that essentially said that the beta matched play rules don't apply to strategems and abilities for units already setup on the board at the start of the game (e.g. Cultist w/ the Tide of Traitors stratagem) - is that an official ruling as far as the beta rule goes? It's like a mini FAQ for a FAQ...
It's official guidance on an unofficial rule.
I'd expect anyone using the beta rules would follow it. I'd expect it to be included in the final release of the rules.
eternalxfl wrote: So that whole community post with the graphic that essentially said that the beta matched play rules don't apply to strategems and abilities for units already setup on the board at the start of the game (e.g. Cultist w/ the Tide of Traitors stratagem) - is that an official ruling as far as the beta rule goes? It's like a mini FAQ for a FAQ...
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
Im curious... how do you do lascannon spam with chaos?
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
Im curious... how do you do lascannon spam with chaos?
....Slannesh havocs with lascannons. strat to make em shoot twice. buy 4 get 4 FREEEEEEEEEEEE
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
Im curious... how do you do lascannon spam with chaos?
....Slannesh havocs with lascannons. strat to make em shoot twice. buy 4 get 4 FREEEEEEEEEEEE
I take a unit of slaanesh havocs and oblits, this is a good option when I roll poorly for my oblits fleshmetal guns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/28 00:54:33
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
Im curious... how do you do lascannon spam with chaos?
....Slannesh havocs with lascannons. strat to make em shoot twice. buy 4 get 4 FREEEEEEEEEEEE
I take a unit of slaanesh havocs and oblits, this is a good option when I roll poorly for my oblits fleshmetal guns.
Point of order - that sounds like you’re rolling once for Fleshmetal and using that profile for the entire phase, using EC on Havocs when Oblits roll three 1’s? You generate a unit’s Fleshmetal profile whenever you select it to attack, with EC (or, with Mutilators, FoK) initiating a new selecting of the unit and a new profile for the guns.
I’ve been using Khorne Obliterators near a Khorne Daemon herald with the Crimson Crown relic to decent effect. Pop Veterans of the Lost War and they’re generating additional shots on every 5+ wound roll. Not quite as efficient as Slaanesh Oblits but when you’re sticking to only Khorne you gotta take what you can. Plus it works with all the other Khorne daemons, and amplifies the hell out of stuff like a Lord of Skulls.
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
Im curious... how do you do lascannon spam with chaos?
....Slannesh havocs with lascannons. strat to make em shoot twice. buy 4 get 4 FREEEEEEEEEEEE
I take a unit of slaanesh havocs and oblits, this is a good option when I roll poorly for my oblits fleshmetal guns.
Point of order - that sounds like you’re rolling once for Fleshmetal and using that profile for the entire phase, using EC on Havocs when Oblits roll three 1’s? You generate a unit’s Fleshmetal profile whenever you select it to attack, with EC (or, with Mutilators, FoK) initiating a new selecting of the unit and a new profile for the guns.
I dont think our group has been playing this rule consistently. Think I must have misread the rule because last time I read it, it didnt seem clear if stats stayed for the shooting phase, and as endless carcophony doesnt start a new shooting phase you wouldnt reroll.
But rereading them again I think you are likely right, as the last part of the datasheet says stats stay for that shooting or overwatch attack.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/28 07:06:49
You roll for their stats every time you pick the unit to shoot.
This is a key point because it means you can see what heir profile is gonna be before you decide what you wannt shoot at!
also a good strat to whack on them is vets of the long war for the +1 to wound (and you can decide to use this after they roll their profile too!) because this does last the entire phase so if you fire them again with the EC strat you still get the +1 to wound.
techsoldaten wrote: [ I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
Im curious... how do you do lascannon spam with chaos?
Abaddon, Cultists, 3 Laspreds, 3 x 10 man CSM squads with 2 Lascannons each, and 2 x Helbrutes with Twin Lascannons. That gives you 22 Lascannons with rerolls to hit and a ton of bodies to get through.
Shoot up your opponents tanks / big stuff turn 1, shoot up the elite units turn 2, deal with chaff the rest of the game.
Set up your army so the cultists are on an outer screen, the CSMs are on an inner screen, and the Helbrutes and Preds are in the middle with Abaddon. Deploy as close to your own table edge as possible, the army should look like a big bubble with Abaddon in the middle. If LOS blocking terrain is an issue, you can split your forces, but it's best to have the CSMs set up so they can conga line back to Abaddon. There are a lot of ways to do this, ideally you want a situation where the only unit that can be charged before turn 4 is Cultists.
This list can be further optimized, but it's pretty hard as-is. You can go up to 30 lascannons in a 2000 point list, but that's usually overkill. It's better to have a Daemon Prince & Sorcerer standing around with Death Hex / Prescience / Warp Time to deal with situations that will come up. Most opponents are geared to take out a Laspred and maybe a Helbrute in the first couple turns, even 14 Lascannons is a lot when you have rerolls to hit.
The FAQ helped and hurt lascannon spam lists. The new deep strike rules make it a lot easier to run, but the changes to Tide of Traitors made objective games a little more challenging. The 3 datascheet limit hurts too, I used to run a variant with 4 Laspreds and can't do that anymore.
Someone mentioned Slaanesh Havocs. That's a neat idea, but Endless Cacophony uses command points. I don't use many Stratagems with this list except for rerolls to wound and Tide of Traitors, which are both very important with Lascannons. You want to make sure you kill what you shoot, and you want Tide of Traitors so you can walk onto an objective late game (if that matters). If you can fit 40 Cultists into a single squad, do that, but I usually have a hard time finding the points.
The thing to remember about this list is Cultists shennanigans matter as much as the lascannons. One very valid thing to do is pull bodies from a combat so that your Cultists are no longer in that combat, exposing your opponent to 60+ bolter shots with rerolls the next turn. I try to stretch them out as far as possible and only consolidate when I am trying to tie up a unit.
Anyways, that's lascannon spam. It works.
EDIT: typos
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/28 10:23:51
EverlastingNewb wrote: LoS blocking Terrain is a must - it almost sound like you play with an open field.
Overall, this is one of the biggest problems i had with 40k - people don't use enough terrain or play with GW terrain (which is full of holes).
Nah, I don't play on open fields.
The rules for cover don't do enough to protect vehicles, flyers are always a target, and you can spread out in such a way that there's an angle to most objective (which is where your opponent will go.) You just want to keep units within 6 inches of Abaddon, and you can usually figure out where to put him before deployment begins.
It's fine to wait a turn or two to shoot stuff up, opponents always reveal themselves.
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
Im curious... how do you do lascannon spam with chaos?
Abaddon, Cultists, 3 Laspreds, 3 x 10 man CSM squads with 2 Lascannons each, and 2 x Helbrutes with Twin Lascannons. That gives you 22 Lascannons with rerolls to hit and a ton of bodies to get through.
Shoot up your opponents tanks / big stuff turn 1, shoot up the elite units turn 2, deal with chaff the rest of the game.
Set up your army so the cultists are on an outer screen, the CSMs are on an inner screen, and the Helbrutes and Preds are in the middle with Abaddon. Deploy as close to your own table edge as possible, the army should look like a big bubble with Abaddon in the middle. If LOS blocking terrain is an issue, you can split your forces, but it's best to have the CSMs set up so they can conga line back to Abaddon. There are a lot of ways to do this, ideally you want a situation where the only unit that can be charged before turn 4 is Cultists.
This list can be further optimized, but it's pretty hard as-is. You can go up to 30 lascannons in a 2000 point list, but that's usually overkill. It's better to have a Daemon Prince & Sorcerer standing around with Death Hex / Prescience / Warp Time to deal with situations that will come up. Most opponents are geared to take out a Laspred and maybe a Helbrute in the first couple turns, even 14 Lascannons is a lot when you have rerolls to hit.
The FAQ helped and hurt lascannon spam lists. The new deep strike rules make it a lot easier to run, but the changes to Tide of Traitors made objective games a little more challenging. The 3 datascheet limit hurts too, I used to run a variant with 4 Laspreds and can't do that anymore.
Someone mentioned Slaanesh Havocs. That's a neat idea, but Endless Cacophony uses command points. I don't use many Stratagems with this list except for rerolls to wound and Tide of Traitors, which are both very important with Lascannons. You want to make sure you kill what you shoot, and you want Tide of Traitors so you can walk onto an objective late game (if that matters). If you can fit 40 Cultists into a single squad, do that, but I usually have a hard time finding the points.
The thing to remember about this list is Cultists shennanigans matter as much as the lascannons. One very valid thing to do is pull bodies from a combat so that your Cultists are no longer in that combat, exposing your opponent to 60+ bolter shots with rerolls the next turn. I try to stretch them out as far as possible and only consolidate when I am trying to tie up a unit.
Anyways, that's lascannon spam. It works.
EDIT: typos
Really awesome rundown, cheers! Do you run them all as black legion? In fact, would you mind posting your full list?
Yeah, I run Black Legion (but may be moving onto Emperor's Children in the near future.)
The Legion Trait is a very important mechanic turn 5 and beyond, being able to advance and shoot becomes essential when you have been sitting on your own table edge most of the game. And this list isn't near as good without Abaddon, you have to kill what you shoot.
I will post the full list when I get a chance and link to it here.
The only reason for Black Legion at all is Abigail. The trait itself and the Relic are hot garbage, and the Strategem is real frickin redundant as it's a copy of the Ultramarines one for all intents and purposes.
Use stuff that shoots well and then a Terminator bodyguard for him, and infiltrate Cultists with Alpha Legion and watch them never leave because Abigail doesn't let them. While they gain no firepower like Black Legion ones would...when would Black Legion ones ever get close, even WITH the trait?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The only reason for Black Legion at all is Abigail. The trait itself and the Relic are hot garbage, and the Strategem is real frickin redundant as it's a copy of the Ultramarines one for all intents and purposes.
Use stuff that shoots well and then a Terminator bodyguard for him, and infiltrate Cultists with Alpha Legion and watch them never leave because Abigail doesn't let them. While they gain no firepower like Black Legion ones would...when would Black Legion ones ever get close, even WITH the trait?
Two possible reasons come to mind:
- you’ve given them Flamers; 4D6 autohits isn’t terrible, and you’ve solved the problem inherent to forty low Ld models
- you’re trying to revive the dead Poxwalker horse
Badablack wrote: I’ve been using Khorne Obliterators near a Khorne Daemon herald with the Crimson Crown relic to decent effect. Pop Veterans of the Lost War and they’re generating additional shots on every 5+ wound roll. Not quite as efficient as Slaanesh Oblits but when you’re sticking to only Khorne you gotta take what you can. Plus it works with all the other Khorne daemons, and amplifies the hell out of stuff like a Lord of Skulls.
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
Im curious... how do you do lascannon spam with chaos?
Abaddon, Cultists, 3 Laspreds, 3 x 10 man CSM squads with 2 Lascannons each, and 2 x Helbrutes with Twin Lascannons. That gives you 22 Lascannons with rerolls to hit and a ton of bodies to get through.
Shoot up your opponents tanks / big stuff turn 1, shoot up the elite units turn 2, deal with chaff the rest of the game.
Set up your army so the cultists are on an outer screen, the CSMs are on an inner screen, and the Helbrutes and Preds are in the middle with Abaddon. Deploy as close to your own table edge as possible, the army should look like a big bubble with Abaddon in the middle. If LOS blocking terrain is an issue, you can split your forces, but it's best to have the CSMs set up so they can conga line back to Abaddon. There are a lot of ways to do this, ideally you want a situation where the only unit that can be charged before turn 4 is Cultists.
This list can be further optimized, but it's pretty hard as-is. You can go up to 30 lascannons in a 2000 point list, but that's usually overkill. It's better to have a Daemon Prince & Sorcerer standing around with Death Hex / Prescience / Warp Time to deal with situations that will come up. Most opponents are geared to take out a Laspred and maybe a Helbrute in the first couple turns, even 14 Lascannons is a lot when you have rerolls to hit.
The FAQ helped and hurt lascannon spam lists. The new deep strike rules make it a lot easier to run, but the changes to Tide of Traitors made objective games a little more challenging. The 3 datascheet limit hurts too, I used to run a variant with 4 Laspreds and can't do that anymore.
Someone mentioned Slaanesh Havocs. That's a neat idea, but Endless Cacophony uses command points. I don't use many Stratagems with this list except for rerolls to wound and Tide of Traitors, which are both very important with Lascannons. You want to make sure you kill what you shoot, and you want Tide of Traitors so you can walk onto an objective late game (if that matters). If you can fit 40 Cultists into a single squad, do that, but I usually have a hard time finding the points.
The thing to remember about this list is Cultists shennanigans matter as much as the lascannons. One very valid thing to do is pull bodies from a combat so that your Cultists are no longer in that combat, exposing your opponent to 60+ bolter shots with rerolls the next turn. I try to stretch them out as far as possible and only consolidate when I am trying to tie up a unit.
Anyways, that's lascannon spam. It works.
EDIT: typos
Thats a whole lot of Lascannons. It definitely works, though; fearless cultists are still definitely a thing. Even with the nerf to tides, 40 fearless cultists is hard to move without some serious firepower
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/29 13:16:28
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The only reason for Black Legion at all is Abigail. The trait itself and the Relic are hot garbage, and the Strategem is real frickin redundant as it's a copy of the Ultramarines one for all intents and purposes.
Use stuff that shoots well and then a Terminator bodyguard for him, and infiltrate Cultists with Alpha Legion and watch them never leave because Abigail doesn't let them. While they gain no firepower like Black Legion ones would...when would Black Legion ones ever get close, even WITH the trait?
Two possible reasons come to mind:
- you’ve given them Flamers; 4D6 autohits isn’t terrible, and you’ve solved the problem inherent to forty low Ld models
- you’re trying to revive the dead Poxwalker horse
When I used the word "when", I meant that they aren't getting closer because of speed.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
but you must now put Abbadon on the table, or until turn 2 you cant have fearless and to hit re rolls, what about oblys then? if they AiP most probably they will be out of Abby aura
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/29 19:00:17
3rd place league tournament
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blackmage wrote: but you must now put Abbadon on the table, or until turn 2 you cant have fearless and to hit re rolls, what about oblys then? if they AiP most probably they will be out of Abby aura
Abigail is always implied to start on the table. He's way too expensive to be sitting in reserves and not buffing anything.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
are all those lascannons needed? many armies play lot of bodies and not so much heavy armors, 20 lascannons seems redundant, seems like you lack anti hordes fire, what about put at least obliterators to give some "mass shooting". I ve seen a list similar to your doing good to a major event, but he played 9 obly+lord
i will try a similar thing but 1 less hellbrute and 14 noise marines, so it should perform better against hordes. There is a thing mainly worry me, about objectives, not that easy grab and take it
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/04/30 20:02:32
3rd place league tournament
03-18-2018
2nd place league tournament
06-12-2018
3rd place league
tournament
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3rd place league tournament
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1st place league tournament
01-27-2019
1st place league
tournament
02-25-2019
This weekend I'll be having a doubles game, my partner is taking a horde of cultists with the Fearless warlord trait for Iron Warriors; gonna see how it fairs! Basically a budget Abaddon, without all the other great rules >.>
