Hollywood vs local pub

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**Flashman**

I will always be the first to admit that Southampton is not a particularly remarkable city. The Luftwaffe removed most of its charm during the war and 60s town planning did the rest. However, there are still a few pockets of character to be found here and there. One of these is a local pub that is popular with students and people of a "grunge" nature. Devoid of chavs (a miracle for any drinking establishment in Southampton), it's one of those places where you can chill out, listen to local bands play live music and catch the occasional whiff of weed in the air. Below is a picture of the pub and you can probably guess the rest.

I'll let the Daily Mail ( no one rants better) explain further...

Daily Mail wrote:A pub that has been called The Hobbit for more than 20 years is embroiled in a legal battle with Hollywood over its name.

The themed bar in Southampton has become the target of legal action by a U.S. film company in what is being described as 'a war between the Hobbits and the orcs.' Middle-earth Enterprises, which owns many of the rights to author J.R.R. Tolkien’s work, claims the pub is profiting from its apparent connection with the franchise. It comes months before the multi-million pound blockbuster The Hobbit hits movie screens around the world in December.

The pub's walls are decorated with colourful graffiti-style paintings of characters from the fantasy novels. Even its cocktails and shots are even named after the cast, with the fantastical concoctions available including Gandalf, Bilbo, Frodo and Legolas. However, the pub has now been told it must undergo a complete rebranding before the end of May or face legal action. That involves changing the name of the bar and drinks, painting over the murals and removing posters from the walls.

Now moving past the obvious "Hollywood is evil" type arguments, you have to wonder whether it's worth the money spent on such legal actions i.e. will the film company genuinely lose profits because of the fact that a small pub in an unremarkable corner of the world is trading under the name of a film about to be released?

**Ratius**

Without reading more into the real ins and outs my first reaction is total nonsense :(

Leave it alone, its a pub in fething Southy for Gods sake.
What harm is it possibly doing?

**filbert**

This has been all over the news here in the South recently. Frankly, I find it all a little tedious. I'm not really sure how a small pub in provincial England can really damage the brand of a multi-million dollar film production.

But, I suppose they are within their rights to ask that the name be changed.

**Albatross**

I think those Hollywood bigwigs are being hob-bit of a dick about all this...

**Joey**

Almost as if they're only doing it to raise publicity over the Hobbit film...almost.

**mattyrm**

Needless. I hope they change their mind after sufficient free advertising.

**Kilkrazy**

filbert wrote:This has been all over the news here in the South recently. Frankly, I find it all a little tedious. I'm not really sure how a small pub in provincial England can really damage the brand of a multi-million dollar film production.

But, I suppose they are within their rights to ask that the name be changed.

Titles of books can't be copyrighted.

**filbert**

Kilkrazy wrote:
filbert wrote:This has been all over the news here in the South recently. Frankly, I find it all a little tedious. I'm not really sure how a small pub in provincial England can really damage the brand of a multi-million dollar film production.

But, I suppose they are within their rights to ask that the name be changed.

Titles of books can't be copyrighted.

But presumably, there must be some grounds for the request and threat of legal action otherwise this would be a bit of a non-story.

A: 'Please change the name of your pub as we have a film coming out with the same name'

B: 'No'

On what basis are they challenging it? The OP just says it is to do with the 'right's to the Hobbit, whatever that means.

**Flashman**

The pub uses a lot of New Line imagery in terms of posters and murals, so they probably have something resembling a point on that score. However, I can't fathom how they can demand a name change too.

**Kilkrazy**

We need some lawyers to give an opinion. We also need more details about the case.

**notprop**

While I think that case Shire has Sam merit, I think they will drop it so people do go Sauron Hollywood. I don't think that they will want to look like they Pergrin Took the piss.

Storm in a tea cup, not like anyone got Mordored is it?

Common Hollywood put the lawyers away, whats wrong with just Tolkien about this?

**Ahtman**

It isn't really Hollywood. Middle Earth Enterprises (formerly Tolkien Enterprises) just holds the licensing rights to Lord of the Rings. They don't make movies, video games, books, ect., they just license out the property.

**Grakmar**

Ahtman wrote:It isn't really Hollywood. Middle Earth Enterprises (formerly Tolkien Enterprises) just holds the licensing rights to Lord of the Rings. They don't make movies, video games, books, ect., they just license out the property.

Only 11 replies before we have someone that actually read the OP. Not bad.

The issue is not copyright infringement (as Kilkrazy pointed out, titles can't be copyright protected), but it is trademark infringement ("Hobbit" is a protected trademark).

The pub is clearly in violation. But, that doesn't mean they have to change names. They could argue that MEE didn't bring this case quickly enough, or isn't protecting the trademark, or other various things you have to do in these cases.

**mattyrm**

notprop wrote:While I think that case Shire has Sam merit, I think they will drop it so people do go Sauron Hollywood. I don't think that they will want to look like they Pergrin Took the piss.

Storm in a tea cup, not like anyone got Mordored is it?

Common Hollywood put the lawyers away, whats wrong with just Tolkien about this?

Kicked the fething arse out of the puns there like mate. Well done.

**Flashman**

Huzzah, Ian McKellen and Stephen Fry are on side now

http://www.mckellen.com/cinema/hobbit-movie/120314.htm

**Kilkrazy**

Sir Ian McKellen owns a pub in the East End.

**Frazzled**

Kilkrazy wrote:Sir Ian McKellen owns a pub in the East End.

For the first time in years, I want to now go to a bar.

**Kilkrazy**

http://www.wharf.co.uk/2011/09/sir-ian-mckellen-why-i-took-ov.html

**kronk**

Disney has been doing this for years. There used to be a child's day care in Shreveport that had a lot of Disney characters painted on the walls (Donald, Goofy, Mickey) and they were forced to paint over them.

I don't agree with it, but if you don't protect your trademark you can lose it, right?

Still a dick move. Let the 20 year old pub have their stuff. Couldn't they grant them a license for $1.00 or something and save a little face here?

**Kanluwen**

kronk wrote:
Still a dick move. Let the 20 year old pub have their stuff. Couldn't they grant them a license for $1.00 or something and save a little face here?

I think if it was all artwork or something done by hand, based off Tolkien's sketches or something--there probably would not be that big of an issue except with the names.

As it stands though, it looks like they used screencaps lifted straight from the movie for their parts.

**Samus_aran115**

So... why do they care about this again? It's a little pub in an unmentionable town in the UK, and they're promoting the franchise in a positive way. I seriously doubt they're trying to profit off of it based off of the film alone. Tolkien would've just chuckled at it, I bet.

**Grakmar**

Samus_aran115 wrote:So... why do they care about this again? It's a little pub in an unmentionable town in the UK, and they're promoting the franchise in a positive way. I seriously doubt they're trying to profit off of it based off of the film alone. Tolkien would've just chuckled at it, I bet.

If you don't protect your trademarks, you can lose them entirely. If they don't go after people that use "Hobbit", then "Hobbit" can become a generalized term and anyone can use it.

Examples of words that used to be trademarked, but lost it because they didn't defend it well enough:
aspirin, dry ice, escalator, heroin, laundromat, petrol, videotape, windbreaker, zipper

**Kilkrazy**

"Hollywood" did not register a trademark for The Hobbit until last year.

The pub's claim is of an earlier date.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:"Hollywood" did not register a trademark for The Hobbit until last year.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tm/t-find/t-find-text/tmtsearch-default.aspx

The pub's claim is of an earlier date.

**Grakmar**

Kilkrazy wrote:"Hollywood" did not register a trademark for The Hobbit until last year.

The pub's claim is of an earlier date.

"Hollywood" isn't involved in the case. The pub is being sued by Middle Earth Enterprises (the current holder of Tolkien's trademarks).

Yes, the word "Hobbit" has become somewhat generalized. So, if the pub fights them, it very well could result in them losing the Hobbit trademark entirely.

**Kilkrazy**

The point I want to make is that the pub The Hobbit has been using the name without trademark for 20 years.

The registered trademark probably isn't enforceable in the business area of food and drink service.

IANAL.

**Amaya**

D&D has used the term 'halflings' instead of 'hobbits' in order to avoid CI or whatever the legal term for it is since its conception in the 70s.

**Kilkrazy**

Halflings is in The Hobbit (or LoTR or both).

Not sure what difference that makes.

**Amaya**

Halfling is not considered a trademark or copyrighted term so other material can use it freely. Hobbit can only be used by the owner.

**Howard A Treesong**

Something just doesn't feel right about a 75 year old book written by a man now long dead is full of terms which are now leased out by some company for their own profit. No doubt some of the pro-capitalists on the forum will tell me that's how the big old US of A works but it's just another example of corporate douchbaggery.

Seems some rights were sold by Tolkien to United Artists who in turn sold them to this other company that now operate "Middle Earth Enterprises". Now they just live parasitically off the IP and don't actually do anything creative or worthy. It's always companies like this lobbying for copyrights to be extended just so they can ride the gravy train a bit longer.

According to wiki, the Southampton pub had its name before Middle Earth Enterprises registered their 'property' so on that count I think and hope their claim is weak and little more than a publicity stunt seeing as a film is coming out soon.

**CT GAMER**

They could always rename it "Peter Jackson's Neckbeard Inn"