Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, you go down to the local tourney, and in your first round, your opponent is playing Grey Knights. He shows you his models, all painted (could use another coat in some places) but he explains that all the NFW Halberds on every model is really NFW Swords. They're all the old resin models and there's like 25 of them... Also, he explains he is running 2 squads of Death Cult Assassins. But, every DCA model is a Grey Knight in power armor armed with 2 NFW Falchions.

The TO gave his army a pass, but how upset would you be in this case? Just roll your eyes and get on with the game, or legitimately upset that someone is prox'ing over half his army?

I'd give the Halberds a pass as Swords. They still serve pretty much the same purpose, and if they're the old metals I wouldn't expect him to convert them up for the sake of it. The DCA counts-as is unacceptable though. DCAs are lithe, thin, T3, fast, and wearing light armor. They're not power armored juggernauts like Marines.

DCA aren't de corsairs either which seems an okayed proxy.
I think that is kinda silly to be mad about.

If it's a local tourny like the one you described, I wouldn't much care, so long as mid-game he doesn't try and pull a "Oh, i'm losing... this model here, yeah, he actually has XYZ..." move.

If it's a larger one, then i'd be miffed if it was disallowed by the rulespack, but uncaring if it wasn't.

Either way, i'd ask to see his list (assuming it isn't a closed list tourny, in which case an army of proxies should not ever be allowed due to the sheer amount of shenanigans ready to be pulled) in order to familiarise myself with what each model should have, and ask him to point out each model to me in turn, or at least have their equipment noted on the bottom of the bases.

That said, DCAs only ever come with flak armour and two power weapons, so there's literally nothing you can pull there shenanigans-wise, but i'd have to make sure his list reflects his claim that all his NFHs are indeed NFSs.

Draigo wrote:DCA aren't de corsairs either which seems an okayed proxy.
I think that is kinda silly to be mad about.

When the dude's got Grey Knights in his army with slightly different arms then I think it becomes a problem. Why does a Marine with a sword = a skinny woman in light armor with twin katanas? Lithe warrior types, like converted corsairs, wyches, or daemonettes work; giant dudes in bulky power armor don't. Their equipment isn't modeled right. I wouldn't get mad about it, but it's not an acceptable proxy, especially in a tournament.

I'm lenient on proxies and the TO gave it a thumbs up so I wouldn't even roll my eyes. I'd be completely ok with it.

I don't mind proxies in casual games. I do it test out new stuff before I buy the models, and to just have some fun to see what I can do with my armies, but in a tournament or a competitive game, I'd prefer to play against a mostly WYSIWYG army. Certain wargear things like grenades or "this chainsword is actually a powersword" are ok as long as I'm shown an army list. Heck, I don't even mind if my opponent says "this marine with a bolter actually has a melta, here's my army list stating so" and as long as I knew which model was the melta I'd be ok. But saying a space marine is actually a DCA is a little much. Could get confusing.

Brother SRM wrote:

Draigo wrote:DCA aren't de corsairs either which seems an okayed proxy.
I think that is kinda silly to be mad about.

When the dude's got Grey Knights in his army with slightly different arms then I think it becomes a problem. Why does a Marine with a sword = a skinny woman in light armor with twin katanas? Lithe warrior types, like converted corsairs, wyches, or daemonettes work; giant dudes in bulky power armor don't. Their equipment isn't modeled right. I wouldn't get mad about it, but it's not an acceptable proxy, especially in a tournament.

De corsairs are guys with pointy ears and have less in common with dca then a guy who put falchions on power armor gk. This isn't a GT or anything that actually is a big deal.

"If" the proxy brings confusion, it should be reconsidered. Its not his fault that the guy cant represent actual models, and now he gets called out for it?

Very No

Draigo wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

Draigo wrote:DCA aren't de corsairs either which seems an okayed proxy.
I think that is kinda silly to be mad about.

When the dude's got Grey Knights in his army with slightly different arms then I think it becomes a problem. Why does a Marine with a sword = a skinny woman in light armor with twin katanas? Lithe warrior types, like converted corsairs, wyches, or daemonettes work; giant dudes in bulky power armor don't. Their equipment isn't modeled right. I wouldn't get mad about it, but it's not an acceptable proxy, especially in a tournament.

De corsairs are guys with pointy ears and have less in common with dca then a guy who put falchions on power armor gk. This isn't a GT or anything that actually is a big deal.

If Jokearo are acceptable henchmen for Inquisitors, then why not alien assassins? Unlike GK DCAs, one can, to some degree, explain away corsairs as simply being elite alien assassins in the sole employ of the Inquisitor leading the force.

So then why not use Nobs for termies? Same base and general size where we can make up any ol reason we want.

I would even go so far as talking to the TO at the end of the tourney. The DCA stuff is just too much.

Draigo wrote:So then why not use Nobs for termies? Same base and general size where we can make up any ol reason we want.

If you model a Nob in terminator armour with a nemesis force weapon, and give fluff about how they became able to wield Grey Knight psychic powers and activate their force weapons, then i'll play you.

DCAs have flak armour and two power weapons in addition to some snazzy martial arts. Corsairs have armour that looks like it could present the same defence as flak armour, and wield two vicious looking weapons that could well be powered, as well as having alien reflexes to account for their speed and agility.

Terminators have been bio-engineered for full integration with the armour, have a wide range of psychic powers that are wielded only by the Inquisition, and use force weapons activated only by the aforementioned psychic ability as well as being trained over centuries. Nobz are Orks whose bodies are completely unable to be used with terminator armour, have no psychic prowess (the only Orks that do are Wierdboyz, and those powers are tempremental), have no martial prowess outside of "you dere, 'it dat git for me!" and are completely untrained in the use of Inquisitorial equipment.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Draigo wrote:So then why not use Nobs for termies? Same base and general size where we can make up any ol reason we want.

If you model a Nob in terminator armour with a nemesis force weapon, and give fluff about how they became able to wield Grey Knight psychic powers and activate their force weapons, then i'll play you.

DCAs have flak armour and two power weapons in addition to some snazzy martial arts. Corsairs have armour that looks like it could present the same defence as flak armour, and wield two vicious looking weapons that could well be powered, as well as having alien reflexes to account for their speed and agility.

Terminators have been bio-engineered for full integration with the armour, have a wide range of psychic powers that are wielded only by the Inquisition, and use force weapons activated only by the aforementioned psychic ability as well as being trained over centuries. Nobz are Orks whose bodies are completely unable to be used with terminator armour, have no psychic prowess (the only Orks that do are Wierdboyz, and those powers are tempremental), have no martial prowess outside of "you dere, 'it dat git for me!" and are completely untrained in the use of Inquisitorial equipment.

Guess we'll just disagree because I don't see a difference. For low end tournaments espeacially I could care less if the army is even painted.

Sentai_Sage wrote:So, you go down to the local tourney, and in your first round, your opponent is playing Grey Knights. He shows you his models, all painted (could use another coat in some places) but he explains that all the NFW Halberds on every model is really NFW Swords. They're all the old resin models and there's like 25 of them... Also, he explains he is running 2 squads of Death Cult Assassins. But, every DCA model is a Grey Knight in power armor armed with 2 NFW Falchions.

The TO gave his army a pass, but how upset would you be in this case? Just roll your eyes and get on with the game, or legitimately upset that someone is prox'ing over half his army?

Just roll your eyes and get on with the game. Nobody wants to hear the sound of whiners whining.
And anyway if the GK player wants to give up awesome halberds for ridiculous swords, he's doing you a favor. So there are tactical as well as social reasons for not complaining.

GreatGunz wrote:

Sentai_Sage wrote:So, you go down to the local tourney, and in your first round, your opponent is playing Grey Knights. He shows you his models, all painted (could use another coat in some places) but he explains that all the NFW Halberds on every model is really NFW Swords. They're all the old resin models and there's like 25 of them... Also, he explains he is running 2 squads of Death Cult Assassins. But, every DCA model is a Grey Knight in power armor armed with 2 NFW Falchions.

The TO gave his army a pass, but how upset would you be in this case? Just roll your eyes and get on with the game, or legitimately upset that someone is prox'ing over half his army?

Just roll your eyes and get on with the game. Nobody wants to hear the sound of whiners whining.
And anyway if the GK player wants to give up awesome halberds for ridiculous swords, he's doing you a favor. So there are tactical as well as social reasons for not complaining.

DCA are same I as halberd wielding GK. lol Though has more attacks and an invuln. So no favors here since DCA are one of the best assault units in the game. Though they're better with the silly nades or in the sob book with Uriah.

GG was referring to the Halberds being proxied as Swords, not the Falcions being proxied as DCAs.

For using Halberds as Swords on models who do not have an invulnerable save to boost, a favour is indeed being done.

Draigo wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:

Sentai_Sage wrote:So, you go down to the local tourney, and in your first round, your opponent is playing Grey Knights. He shows you his models, all painted (could use another coat in some places) but he explains that all the NFW Halberds on every model is really NFW Swords. They're all the old resin models and there's like 25 of them... Also, he explains he is running 2 squads of Death Cult Assassins. But, every DCA model is a Grey Knight in power armor armed with 2 NFW Falchions.

The TO gave his army a pass, but how upset would you be in this case? Just roll your eyes and get on with the game, or legitimately upset that someone is prox'ing over half his army?

Just roll your eyes and get on with the game. Nobody wants to hear the sound of whiners whining.
And anyway if the GK player wants to give up awesome halberds for ridiculous swords, he's doing you a favor. So there are tactical as well as social reasons for not complaining.

DCA are same I as halberd wielding GK. lol Though has more attacks and an invuln. So no favors here since DCA are one of the best assault units in the game. Though they're better with the silly nades or in the sob book with Uriah.

The death cult proxy is more annoying than the halberds, I agree with that. I think it's always bad form to get upset over a game though, honestly. I probably wouldn't seek that guy out for games in the future. He's definitely being rude with his proxies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Avatar 720 wrote:GG was referring to the Halberds being proxied as Swords, not the Falcions being proxied as DCAs.

For using Halberds as Swords on models who do not have an invulnerable save to boost, a favour is indeed being done.

yes

Ah ok my mistake didnt notice..

As long as the TO consents it then it's fine by me I suppose. I don't really want to be that guy already looking for a minor advantage over nothing especially just weapons.

Though the DCA would kind of miff me, just because I put the time and effort and resources into my army to be tournament ready for my list, and this person didn't. I hate going against armies where whole squads of models are supposed to be something else entirely outside of maybe a friendly test run. If you want to run that unit then put the resources and effort into it like the rest of us.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Draigo wrote:So then why not use Nobs for termies? Same base and general size where we can make up any ol reason we want.

If you model a Nob in terminator armour with a nemesis force weapon, and give fluff about how they became able to wield Grey Knight psychic powers and activate their force weapons, then i'll play you.

Pherb, I know what we're gonna do today!

Sentai_Sage wrote:So, you go down to the local tourney, and in your first round, your opponent is playing Grey Knights. He shows you his models, all painted (could use another coat in some places) but he explains that all the NFW Halberds on every model is really NFW Swords. They're all the old resin models and there's like 25 of them... Also, he explains he is running 2 squads of Death Cult Assassins. But, every DCA model is a Grey Knight in power armor armed with 2 NFW Falchions.

The TO gave his army a pass, but how upset would you be in this case? Just roll your eyes and get on with the game, or legitimately upset that someone is prox'ing over half his army?

It's a local tourney. If it's anything like the local tourneys around me, that kind of shiz is not only NOT abnormal but to be expected.
Vote with your feet. Don't attend if you don't like it. If your tourney ranking would suffer for this response, tough. Make a decision, either you live with it for the ranking points, or you don't.

It's not the only reason I stopped playing in tourneys. There are a core of local players who would 'house rule' their tourneys*. I have no problem with this, as most tourneys will have their own 'house rules' to smooth out irregularities and make the event run smoother. It was the little detail that the "house rules" weren't published anywhere but in a notebook held at the club and locked in a cupboard and only those local core players would know how a given "iffy" rule would be resolved. They also wrote and playtested the missions and got to tailor their lists to the missions before the tourney (the non-locals had to wait until the event to see the missions).
e.g.
1. For their DoW deployment missions, DTs DON'T count as an additional unit for deployment, so they could deploy 2 troops units with DTs, and an HQ with its own DT (or 6 units to the 3 that are expected by most people who read the boxout on that page). This rule does NOT apply to the non-locals.

Additionally in the round match-ups, they were automatically exempt from playing fellow club-mates, but the non-locals who might have come up as a team visit thing were not.

i dont care. as long as everything is shown before hand, and you dont have multiple models that look the same with diffrent wargear etc then no problem. if his halbreds = swords, and his falchions = DCA then fine. they have the same base, the DCA are a touch smaller but really TLOS issues from this should be minimal and work both ways. i would also want a copy of his list identifying every model that is a proxy, and what it looks like. that way i can double check whats on field.

i have used proxys before myself, to "get a feel" for a unit or army before shelling out the 100's of dollars required to purchase it, and often times this "trial" run helps me decide what to buy etc. as long as everything is shown and told before hand, a written list is provided that explains whats what - i see no issue with it at all, and would rather play a game then piss and moan because someone dont have the proper gw brand 20$ a pop model in their army. some people dont have money trees going in their back yard, and i certainly cant afford to rent mine out.

wierd as it is, I actually use repentia for the DCA. (happened to get a good deal on them) I mean even with the real models they have ones just with one sword in the pose. Chicks with swords (now with chains )

would that be too far fetched?

sudojoe wrote:wierd as it is, I actually use repentia for the DCA. (happened to get a good deal on them) I mean even with the real models they have ones just with one sword in the pose. Chicks with swords (now with chains )

would that be too far fetched?

Eh, I wouldn't say so. I mean, they hopefully don't look like anything else in your list, and are crazy kung-fu women, so why not.

Happygrunt wrote:

sudojoe wrote:wierd as it is, I actually use repentia for the DCA. (happened to get a good deal on them) I mean even with the real models they have ones just with one sword in the pose. Chicks with swords (now with chains )

would that be too far fetched?

Eh, I wouldn't say so. I mean, they hopefully don't look like anything else in your list, and are crazy kung-fu women, so why not.

nope, just them scantidly clad chainsword toting hotties.

I'm still trying to come up with a proper moneky henchman proxy. Thinking of using an orc....mech... it sorta fits the rules!

I would happily give it a pass, because it sounds to me that he's going for a certain look, he wants his army to look like grey knights, is that so wrong? He's modelled them to make sure they look like they're armed with the same stuff DCAs have.
As long as its not confusing, which it definitely doesn't sound like it was, and you know he's not trying to pull some weird things half way through, why should you care that he's made proxies? And compared to some proxies these ones make sense; so they don't the fluff completely, so what? Maybe he doesn't have the DCA models yet, but wanted to see how'd they do and has chosen models that'd cause the least amount of confusion, or as I said maybe he just enjoys the look of everyone looking like a grey knight, in which case he's armed the DCA proxy models appropriately

No eye rolling from me

I would allow any NFW to be Proxied as sword regardless of tge wielder. It is a simple case of "I am.not taking upgrade X. I won't pay for or write it.on my list"

In reverse I expect even free upgrades to be written.

NFW is not that big of a deal. The DCA though, it's sort of like if I took some IG Kasrkin and said that the world the regiment are from is so technologically advanced compared to the rest of the IoM that their armour gives them the same defence and augmentation as a Space Marine's power armour, as well as the lasgun stopping power equaling that of the bolter. Some might be alright with it, they may even think it's good, the vast majority however will look at it as odd and out of place; a few may even become angry.

However if more effort were put into it to make them even more similar to the models they are proxying it becomes counts as; generally accepted more.

Ie, I sometimes proxy SMs as PA Acolytes with Bolters.