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We have been playing a few games for a doubles tournament coming up and several questions came up during gameplay that we weren't completely sure how to handle them:

1)USR rage - It says you need to move towards the closest enemy, but can you still shoot at a different unit?

2)Squads shooting - My unit of 24 ork boyz is trying to shoot at a unit
1st - Do I need to check line of site for every member of the squad or if one can see the opponent they can all shoot?
2nd - The same but do I need to check every member of the squad is in range?

3)Exploding vehicles - I managed to get my opponent venom exploding he then disembarks the unit in clear terrain. When I shoot at it he says they get a cover save because the exploding vehicles creates a crater that gives them cover save. is this true?

4)Moving a skimmer - My opponent moves is skimmer to an objective that has my boyz around it, I say he can't move within 1inch of my boyz so he can't place the model there. He says only the base needs to be 1inch away. Is this correct?

There were a few more that I don't recall anymore but if they eventually come up to my mind will try to update the thread. Thank you very much in advance

Bacms wrote:1)USR rage - It says you need to move towards the closest enemy, but can you still shoot at a different unit?

Read the USR

2)Squads shooting - My unit of 24 ork boyz is trying to shoot at a unit
1st - Do I need to check line of site for every member of the squad or if one can see the opponent they can all shoot?
2nd - The same but do I need to check every member of the squad is in range?

Every model. For both questions.

3)Exploding vehicles - I managed to get my opponent venom exploding he then disembarks the unit in clear terrain. When I shoot at it he says they get a cover save because the exploding vehicles creates a crater that gives them cover save. is this true?

Page 61 is absolutely clear on this.

4)Moving a skimmer - My opponent moves is skimmer to an objective that has my boyz around it, I say he can't move within 1inch of my boyz so he can't place the model there. He says only the base needs to be 1inch away. Is this correct?

Skimmers measure to the base for everything (except shooting, and charging you can touch either). So he can move there, but he's not contesting with his hull.

1: Yes, it only tells you to move towards the closest enemy.

2: Technically yes, but really so long as you see a part of the target, decorative elements excluded, you can shoot them. Also yes you must make sure of who is in range, as they are the ones who can shoot. Start from the back of the unit and work forwards until you know who is in range.

3: No, the crater doesn't appear until after the explosion is resolved.

4: The base and hull must be 1 inch away.

1. Rage only bothers your movement...the rule doesnt say anything about shooting

2. You must check range and LOS for every model....as models which are out of range or who do not have LOS may not shoot. Remember that LOS ignores models in the same unit.

3. If the vehicle explodes it is replaced by a crater (roughly the shape of the vehicles silhouette) (We use pieces of paper) This crater is then difficult terrain and provides a 4+ cover save. The unit must be placed inside the outline of its exploded transport

4. The whole model must be 1" away...

1. Yes.

2. All need to check LOS, all need to check range.

3. Yup, technically they do but I would say if you don't have a crater then you don't benefit from the rule (for either of you).

4. Dude above me probably knows better than I do about this one.

juraigamer wrote:3: No, the crater doesn't appear until after the explosion is resolved.

Lightcavalier wrote:3. If the vehicle explodes it is replaced by a crater (roughly the shape of the vehicles silhouette) (We use pieces of paper) This crater is then difficult terrain and provides a 4+ cover save. The unit must be placed inside the outline of its exploded transport

It'd be great if you'd read page 61, specifically the explodes damage result, and cited where the crater gives a cover save.

rigeld2 wrote:

juraigamer wrote:3: No, the crater doesn't appear until after the explosion is resolved.

Lightcavalier wrote:3. If the vehicle explodes it is replaced by a crater (roughly the shape of the vehicles silhouette) (We use pieces of paper) This crater is then difficult terrain and provides a 4+ cover save. The unit must be placed inside the outline of its exploded transport

It'd be great if you'd read page 61, specifically the explodes damage result, and cited where the crater gives a cover save.

It's listed under the "what gives cover saves" section of the rule book.

1) Yo can still shoot at who you want.

2a). All members need LoS. If some have LoS they can still shoot.
2b) All models need range. If some are in range, they can still shoot.

3) You are supposed to place a crater if you have one. If you don't have a crater, or something to denote where the crater is, they do not get cover.

4) The base is used only for assault, you still measure everything from the hull (fire points, access points and wepaons still follow normal vehicle rules).

Kevin949 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

juraigamer wrote:3: No, the crater doesn't appear until after the explosion is resolved.

Lightcavalier wrote:3. If the vehicle explodes it is replaced by a crater (roughly the shape of the vehicles silhouette) (We use pieces of paper) This crater is then difficult terrain and provides a 4+ cover save. The unit must be placed inside the outline of its exploded transport

It'd be great if you'd read page 61, specifically the explodes damage result, and cited where the crater gives a cover save.

It's listed under the "what gives cover saves" section of the rule book.

Page 21 that gives a guideline? Where page 61 specifies that it's just difficult terrain?

rigeld2 wrote:

juraigamer wrote:3: No, the crater doesn't appear until after the explosion is resolved.

Lightcavalier wrote:3. If the vehicle explodes it is replaced by a crater (roughly the shape of the vehicles silhouette) (We use pieces of paper) This crater is then difficult terrain and provides a 4+ cover save. The unit must be placed inside the outline of its exploded transport

It'd be great if you'd read page 61, specifically the explodes damage result, and cited where the crater gives a cover save.

pg 67 is the page you want. If you have the crater to place, the crater is area terrain, and counts as difficult terrain. So the vehicle explodes, the embarked unit makes any saves that are allowed, just not cover saves.

After the explosion the survivors are placed in the crater, and would get a cover save from any further shooting.

sirlynchmob wrote:pg 67 is the page you want. If you have the crater to place, the crater is area terrain, and counts as difficult terrain.

Page 67 doesn't mention the word terrain anywhere on it. Nor crater.
Page 61 specifies that you should "replaced with an area of difficult ground representing scattered wreckage or a crater (if you have one)." It's an area of difficult ground represented by a crater, or whatever else you have on hand.
It mentions nothing about being area terrain - that's the Wrecked result.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

juraigamer wrote:3: No, the crater doesn't appear until after the explosion is resolved.

Lightcavalier wrote:3. If the vehicle explodes it is replaced by a crater (roughly the shape of the vehicles silhouette) (We use pieces of paper) This crater is then difficult terrain and provides a 4+ cover save. The unit must be placed inside the outline of its exploded transport

It'd be great if you'd read page 61, specifically the explodes damage result, and cited where the crater gives a cover save.

It's listed under the "what gives cover saves" section of the rule book.

Page 21 that gives a guideline? Where page 61 specifies that it's just difficult terrain?

I don't remember the page number, but the "guideline" you're talking about specifically mentions craters...so ya, that one. *Shrug* If you and your opponent decided to play craters as no cover-save then fine, but if this isn't something discussed pre-game then these "guidelines" are how it should be played. Don't see why you're resisting this in the slightest.

Kevin949 wrote:I don't remember the page number, but the "guideline" you're talking about specifically mentions craters...so ya, that one. *Shrug* If you and your opponent decided to play craters as no cover-save then fine, but if this isn't something discussed pre-game then these "guidelines" are how it should be played. Don't see why you're resisting this in the slightest.

Because page 61 says to place an area of difficult ground - not that it has a cover save.
Wrecks specifically mentions cover saves. Explodes doesn't.

In general, craters give a 4+. Craters created from an Explodes! result specifically don't.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:I don't remember the page number, but the "guideline" you're talking about specifically mentions craters...so ya, that one. *Shrug* If you and your opponent decided to play craters as no cover-save then fine, but if this isn't something discussed pre-game then these "guidelines" are how it should be played. Don't see why you're resisting this in the slightest.

Because page 61 says to place an area of difficult ground - not that it has a cover save.
Wrecks specifically mentions cover saves. Explodes doesn't.

In general, craters give a 4+. Craters created from an Explodes! result specifically don't.

but it is a piece of area terrain. so it would really depend on how you want to play it as either way can be justified.

sirlynchmob wrote:but it is a piece of area terrain. so it would really depend on how you want to play it as either way can be justified.

It's an area of difficult ground, according to the rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:but it is a piece of area terrain. so it would really depend on how you want to play it as either way can be justified.

It's an area of difficult ground, according to the rules.

yes, an Area of difficult ground representing a crater.

pg 21, cover chart, crater = 4+

pg 22, bullet, inside area terrain.

If youre trying to say difficult ground is not difficult terrain, then you should not have to make a difficult terrain test to move out of the crater.

However, "you should discuss with your opponent before the game begins what all the terrain counts as. When the game is underway, it will be harder to discuss it impartially" (BRB page 13)

sirlynchmob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:but it is a piece of area terrain. so it would really depend on how you want to play it as either way can be justified.

It's an area of difficult ground, according to the rules.

yes, an Area of difficult ground representing a crater.

pg 21, cover chart, crater = 4+

pg 22, bullet, inside area terrain.

If youre trying to say difficult ground is not difficult terrain, then you should not have to make a difficult terrain test to move out of the crater.

An area of difficult ground represented by a crater. Note the difference there.
Page 21 is irrelevant - page 61 is more specific.
Page 22 is irrelevant unless you're trying to say that all difficult terrain must give cover.

Bacms wrote:4)Moving a skimmer - My opponent moves is skimmer to an objective that has my boyz around it, I say he can't move within 1inch of my boyz so he can't place the model there. He says only the base needs to be 1inch away. Is this correct?

For Skimmer vehicles the base is ignored except for assaults. so the base can be as close as you want, only the hull has to be an inch away from enemy bases. (Not hard to do for skimmers, as they are usually more than 1inch in the air.

rigeld2 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:but it is a piece of area terrain. so it would really depend on how you want to play it as either way can be justified.

It's an area of difficult ground, according to the rules.

yes, an Area of difficult ground representing a crater.

pg 21, cover chart, crater = 4+

pg 22, bullet, inside area terrain.

If youre trying to say difficult ground is not difficult terrain, then you should not have to make a difficult terrain test to move out of the crater.

An area of difficult ground represented by a crater. Note the difference there.
Page 21 is irrelevant - page 61 is more specific.
Page 22 is irrelevant unless you're trying to say that all difficult terrain must give cover.

Yes all difficult area terrain gives cover.

sirlynchmob wrote:Yes all difficult area terrain gives cover.

Sure.

Is all difficult terrain also area terrain? If so, citation please.

rigeld2 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:Yes all difficult area terrain gives cover.

Sure.

Is all difficult terrain also area terrain? If so, citation please.

pg 13 area terrain. First sentance. Sure you can make difficult terrain features on your board without clearly defined edges. but a crater left from an exploding vehicle would have a clearly defined edge that outlined the hull.
then back to pg 21, and 22.

sirlynchmob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:Yes all difficult area terrain gives cover.

Sure.

Is all difficult terrain also area terrain? If so, citation please.

pg 13 area terrain. First sentance. Sure you can make difficult terrain features on your board without clearly defined edges. but a crater left from an exploding vehicle would have a clearly defined edge that outlined the hull.
then back to pg 21, and 22.

So - with your statements - a lava field gives a cover save, despite having nothing poking up from the ground. As does quicksand.
Give me a few to read the pages again.

rigeld2 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:Yes all difficult area terrain gives cover.

Sure.

Is all difficult terrain also area terrain? If so, citation please.

pg 13 area terrain. First sentance. Sure you can make difficult terrain features on your board without clearly defined edges. but a crater left from an exploding vehicle would have a clearly defined edge that outlined the hull.
then back to pg 21, and 22.

So - with your statements - a lava field gives a cover save, despite having nothing poking up from the ground. As does quicksand.
Give me a few to read the pages again.

yes to both. But if you want to start posting pictures of every terrain piece you've ever found, than all we are doing is what is described on pg 88. We are defining the terrain. If the terrain is built to so much as hide a big tow, than it grants a cover save.

I get that you want to define the "exploded vehicle crater" as difficult for movement, and open for shooting. I'd define it as difficult for movement granting a 4+ cover save. But if it didn't come up before the game, then RAW I'd get a 4+ cover save because I would be inside area terrain pg22. the word "crater" is used predominantly throughout all the definitions.

pg 61 "an area of difficult ground representing ... a crater"
pg 13 "area" "such as a crater"
pg 21 crater 4+
pg 22 "inside area"

Lesson from all of this, if you see your opponent with vehicles or you have them, make sure to discuss "craters from exploding vehicles" while setting up the board.

I'll drop the debate, but I'd dice for it every time. But I will start bringing it up beforehand.
Wrecked specifies a cover save. Explodes explicitly doesn't.
With your interpretation, most of what Wrecked specifies is useless.

Thanks guys. It is good to see I was playing it right for most part. Now I just got confused with the cover saves and the half of squadron in cover when the models firing can see the whole squadron. It doesn't make sense on my head know but I guess I just need to re-read that bit now.
The only thing I was playing "wrong" seems to be not clearly defined. Even when I read it again it says to replace with dangerous terrain or crater so even if you always define the crater as cover it becomes confusing if it is only scatters.

rigeld2 wrote:I'll drop the debate, but I'd dice for it every time. But I will start bringing it up beforehand.
Wrecked specifies a cover save. Explodes explicitly doesn't.
With your interpretation, most of what Wrecked specifies is useless.

Explodes was answered in the FaQ:

Q: When a vehicle is destroyed by a Destroyed –
Explodes! result on the Vehicle Damage table you
replace the vehicle with a similar sized area of difficult
ground. What, if any, cover save does this area of
difficult ground confer? (p61)
A: It will confer a 4+ cover save to any eligible unit

Fair enough - not sure how I missed that. Thanks.

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I'll drop the debate, but I'd dice for it every time. But I will start bringing it up beforehand.
Wrecked specifies a cover save. Explodes explicitly doesn't.
With your interpretation, most of what Wrecked specifies is useless.

Explodes was answered in the FaQ:

Q: When a vehicle is destroyed by a Destroyed –
Explodes! result on the Vehicle Damage table you
replace the vehicle with a similar sized area of difficult
ground. What, if any, cover save does this area of
difficult ground confer? (p61)
A: It will confer a 4+ cover save to any eligible unit

Thanks I had seen people talking about the FAQ but failed to find that reference.
I also remember the problem with the Rage USR, was that if you shoot a unit at 5 inches away instead of the one at 1inch it means you can charge the further away unit rather than the closest one. Which makes the rules a bit pointless in this case. But hey this is GW

You could shoot the unit 1" away and then not charge at all. You could not shoot at all and still charge the unit 5" away.

Rage restricts how you move in the movement phase. In the assault phase you have to consolidate towards the nearest enemy. And of course if you run you have to run towards the closest. But it doesn't restrict your assaults.