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Can SWS still take demo charges? I thought the Codex replaced the Index options.

Were they even in the index?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anywho. Thinking about running a vanguard of vets in Valhallan regiment for the send in the next wave .... thoughts?

 davidgr33n wrote:
Can SWS still take demo charges? I thought the Codex replaced the Index options.

Yes.

1) Get the Imperium 2 Index.
2) Find the entry for the Special Weapons Squad within. The rules for Demolition Charges are found there.
3) Use this entry.

Or get the Battlescribe and check its entry for SWS, if you happen to be still unclear how to include them.

Also? You can use Rough Riders too because they are in the Index.

I second having a cheap plasma SWS or two in a foot list. If you take them in large numbers they'll be seen as a threat and gunned down in short order. One or two can hide out of LOS and act as a good counter unit to react to enemies advancing towards your lines. they should get at least one good volley off!

In my Guard / Sisters Force I take 2 plasma Commando units (8 plasma guns in 2 Command Squads) and 3 plasmas in a SWS, along with an all Plasma / Lascannon Tank Commander and a Commander with plasma pistol and “Old Grudges”, and outflank them all together to take out whatever needs to be smashed.
I call it my Tallarn bomb lol

 davidgr33n wrote:
In my Guard / Sisters Force I take 2 plasma Commando units (8 plasma guns in 2 Command Squads) and 3 plasmas in a SWS, along with an all Plasma / Lascannon Tank Commander and a Commander with plasma pistol and “Old Grudges”, and outflank them all together to take out whatever needs to be smashed.
I call it my Tallarn bomb lol

So you use the ambush stratagem (3 CPs) for the tank and two squads and then the dagger of tusakh for the commander and the last infantry? I like the idea of making best use of "old grudges". Are you paying an extra CP to allow access to more than one relic or is the dagger your only one?

Do you not find that by ambushing the warlord so close to the enemy you're giving up a lot of points easily. (if you're playing ITC that could be 1 for headhunter, 1 for slay the warlord and 1 for a slaying a unit) The small unit sizes of the SWS and command squads means they're easy to kill. Its one of the reasons I'm moving away from the classic deepstrike a MT command squad with plasma rifles and a MT commander within rapid fire range. Sure they do a reasonable amount of damage but they were gone the next turn giving my opponent 2 unit destroyed and a character (2 ITC points at a min)

I'm looking at doing something similar with the ambush and dagger combo (I pay the 3CP in order to take the aquilla for my warlord (who is hiding right at the back of my deployment), the dagger and the deathmask for my ogryn bodyguard) I'm using the tallarn ambush rule to ambush a unit of 2 Hellhounds (their pretty resilient and will still be able to shoot their inferno cannon with no penalties even if they are on one wound) and two bog standard infantry sqauds. I use the dagger on a commander (not my warlord) and another infantry squad.

The hellhounds come on when and where they can cause the most damage while when I bring on the infantry squads I use a stratagem to combine squads then can order the 20 man squad and the remaining 10 man squad to either FRFSRF or Move Move Move them so they compete for an objective. Shooting the 20 man squad off an objective is no easy task especially if you save some CPs for take cover and moral tests on a D3.

If I do take an extra Relic it’s Kurov’s Aquila on the Tank Commander.

You’re right about the points given by the outflanking Warlord, remember though they’ve got to kill all the other units in front of him before they can target him. Yes my units are small, but I don’t bring them on unsupported unless there’s a major target I must get rid of that I can’t get support to. By support I mean that I bring all my other forces to the side of the table I’m flanking.
For support I have 2 Artemia Hellhounds plus Celestine and 6 Sisters Repressors each loaded with 5 Stormbolter-hauling Dominions that can shoot out of the tank (plus each Repressor has 2 Stormbolters and a Heavy Flamer and can charge with WS5 and 9 Str6 attacks against infantry). In my backfield I leave 2 mortar squads to hold any Objectives.
My basic strategy is to isolate a portion of my opponents forces and delete it as quickly as possible then moving on to objectives. An opponent who wants to take out my small elite units can but I always give them lots to think about on that flank.

I find taking Old Grudges with all those elite units coming in with my Commander can become a psychological benefit against some opponents in their deployment. I don’t always target the most powerful units either, sometimes it’s their most lavishly painted unit, sometimes it’s a blob unit, it’s more a ploy to disrupt their deployment.

The sheer number of small units AM can bring definitely gives your opponent lots to think about.

I didn't realise the LRBT you were bringing was a tank commander which is another ITC point.

I'm just spit balling since I'm trying something similar but would you not consider changing him to a normal LRBT with Punisher Gatling cannon and a flamer. I get your TC could shoot the plasma at BS 3+(unfortunately only once), reroll 1s to hit and all failed wounds (I really do like the synergy with the grudges trait) but I'd be concerned about being charged the following turn. 20 punisher shots + heavy flamer to anyone charging would probably be enough of a deterrent. Also I think the punisher cannon benefits more from the reroll wounds whether its a TC or bog standard LRBT.

How do you find the placement of screening units for your tank if you're ambushing from the side? I've found the 7" from the side rule prohibitive in terms of space. Even if you placed the Russ sideways when it comes on (roughly 4") and then the screen of SWS or Commandos infront (assuming 1" bases) the opponent will be able to consolidate into the tank after fighting with the screen (assuming they haven't been wiped out)

I'm waiting out on a delivery of Celestine for my army. (I've gone full Imperium soup and purchased a jet pack librarian, culexus assassin and Celestine) Have you tried using her with seraphims?

The beauty of the Ambush rule is that the units don’t have to come on together or within any distance to each other. This gives flexibility when you bring them on and is one of the considerations when I chose the Plasma Tank Commander. If I find I can screen him with my onboard units (Repressors / Dominions or Hellhounds) then I’ll bring him on close to my Grudges Commander for the Grudges benefit. If not then he can come on far enough away to shoot his 36” weapons and be safe from charges. Remember too, even coming on from a flank he can still use his Tallarn tank order to move 6” after he shoots.
I don’t like standard tanks for their BS4 , plus I calculate the cost of needing a 2nd commander to fill out a battalion, so in my mind he’s 30 points cheaper.

I’m foremost a Sisters player, they are too limited for me at the moment which is why I’m allying Tallarn. But Seraphim are great if you only take one or max two squads. I dont because I can’t fit in a 7th Fast Attack in my outrider detachment and I prefer the Dominions in Repressors.
With the extra ActofFaith Celestine gives they can move up field with her and tie up tanks (how I run them). They won’t last long though as they’re very fragile.

I'm running a footguard list with a primaris psyker and was wondering what the best use would be for the psyker in buffing all of those infantry and vet squads.

What ITC mission are you playing where "killpoints" is on a by unit basis? Every one I've played, other than things like first blood or big game Hunter, had the killpoijts assigned by power level. Just curious because I wonder if I'm playing older ITC missions or something. We thought it was standard kill points too until we reread the mission.

So for example, I could lose 3 infantry squads and still come out ahead of another player who lost a Leman Russ. It's been a huge boon for me running primarily infantry because I'll use morale shenanigans to keep a survivor or two alive. A single enemy character or vehicle can often make up for 30 - 40 infantry I've lost, or be a straight trade for a tank.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
What ITC mission are you playing where "killpoints" is on a by unit basis? Every one I've played, other than things like first blood or big game Hunter, had the killpoijts assigned by power level. Just curious because I wonder if I'm playing older ITC missions or something. We thought it was standard kill points too until we reread the mission.

So for example, I could lose 3 infantry squads and still come out ahead of another player who lost a Leman Russ. It's been a huge boon for me running primarily infantry because I'll use morale shenanigans to keep a survivor or two alive. A single enemy character or vehicle can often make up for 30 - 40 infantry I've lost, or be a straight trade for a tank.

ITC Champions missions have four primary points per round. Did you hold one objective at end of turn, did you kill a unit at end of turn, did you kill more units than the opponent at end of round, and do you hold more objectives than the opponent at end of round.

Given the spread for 2/3rds of my losses in that format were four points or less, that killed more end of round primary is a big deal for me.

It's caused me to drop every HWS/Ratlings/Scion/Scout Sentinel from my army because of how fragile they are. Hopefully I can get in a test game or two before LVO.

Ah well that screws IG pretty good if you take any infantry whatsoever. Seems heavily biased toward armies like Death Guard and superheavies but what do I know, I'm not a major tournament player.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Ah well that screws IG pretty good if you take any infantry whatsoever. Seems heavily biased toward armies like Death Guard and superheavies but what do I know, I'm not a major tournament player.

The secondary missions are a great balance to that, you have your choice of several different options that range from getting one vp from killing something with more than ten wounds, or one vp for having a guy in all four quadrants at the end of each turn. You can score a total of 16 secondary objectives and building your list to give up as few of these as possible while.nabbing them from your opponent are huge factors when building for lvo(such as getting 1 VP for killing a unit at least 10 models or 2 for killing a unit with 20, so making squads of 19 gives you the most safety there)

Ecdain wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Ah well that screws IG pretty good if you take any infantry whatsoever. Seems heavily biased toward armies like Death Guard and superheavies but what do I know, I'm not a major tournament player.

The secondary missions are a great balance to that, you have your choice of several different options that range from getting one vp from killing something with more than ten wounds, or one vp for having a guy in all four quadrants at the end of each turn. You can score a total of 16 secondary objectives and building your list to give up as few of these as possible while.nabbing them from your opponent are huge factors when building for lvo(such as getting 1 VP for killing a unit at least 10 models or 2 for killing a unit with 20, so making squads of 19 gives you the most safety there)

Where can I find the info on ITC missions objective points?

Just google ITC champions missions, Theres a link on the second result down.

Unfortunately you're limited to 12 points max from secondary not 16. 4 points max for each secondary.

Awesome, thanks!

CaptainO wrote:
Just google ITC champions missions, Theres a link on the second result down.

Unfortunately you're limited to 12 points max from secondary not 16. 4 points max for each secondary.

He's right I'm not sure where I even got 16, you pick three and can score each up to four times

So I habe some severe problems dealing with Magnus...
It seems like he will lose his rerolling invulns of 1, but in return gets a -1 to hit spell, which even increases his survivability...

So how are you guys dealing with him. And please don't suggest Lascanons, they are terrible because of his invuln.

 lash92 wrote:
So I habe some severe problems dealing with Magnus...
It seems like he will lose his rerolling invulns of 1, but in return gets a -1 to hit spell, which even increases his survivability...

So how are you guys dealing with him. And please don't suggest Lascanons, they are terrible because of his invuln.

Cadian Relic + overlapping fields of fire on your biggest guns should take him down. A battalion of Plasma Scions with Laurels of Command to give reroll 1's to hit and reroll all wounds also should mess him up pretty good.

 lash92 wrote:
So I habe some severe problems dealing with Magnus...
It seems like he will lose his rerolling invulns of 1, but in return gets a -1 to hit spell, which even increases his survivability...

So how are you guys dealing with him. And please don't suggest Lascanons, they are terrible because of his invuln.

Magnus loses a lot with the TS codex.

1) -1 to hit against BS4 is mathematically equivalent to reroll 1 on 3++, but is worse against BS3+
2) Changeling no longer gives him -1 to hit, so he is even more vulnerable turn 1.
3) Fixed warlord trait means that he longer has 6+++ (can get it back with changeling)
4) He know needs to cast 3 powers turn 1 (+1 inv, -1 hit, warp time), which means no more smite and higher chances to fail one.

He also increased in cost by 30 points.

FRFSFR combined with vengeance for cadia is usually good for a couple of wounds from a basic infantry squad.

He's a good target for smites and psychic Maelstrom even with his denying powers. A culexus would hamper his psychic abilities and ability to deny with this. Having psykers about to attempt to deny his -1 to hit would be a good idea.

In theory our best ranged weapons to bring him down are probably manticores, battle cannons + mortars. Grenade launchers and autocannons might also be worth a look too as they deal multiple damage and don't pay for good AP.

The cadian overlapping fields of fire stratagem could be helpful if you're going to unload your whole army into him.

He's pretty much always going to be a pain to take down though if he gets that -1 to hit up.

 lash92 wrote:
So I habe some severe problems dealing with Magnus...
It seems like he will lose his rerolling invulns of 1, but in return gets a -1 to hit spell, which even increases his survivability...

So how are you guys dealing with him. And please don't suggest Lascanons, they are terrible because of his invuln.

An imperium detachment containing a space marine Librarian and the Culexus Assassin and if you have the points Celestine are an excellent counter if used together. The Librarian should take the physic spells "Null zone" which removes any enemy invulnerable saves. He also has another physic spell that means he'll fight first in cc until this next psychic phase.

Get the Librarian within 6" of magnus then finish him off with the Culexus anti psyche weaponry or Celestines general badassery.

This dude does a good video on must have units for a competitive Guard force https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Pbahof14A&t=450s

Spoletta wrote:

 lash92 wrote:
So I habe some severe problems dealing with Magnus...
It seems like he will lose his rerolling invulns of 1, but in return gets a -1 to hit spell, which even increases his survivability...

So how are you guys dealing with him. And please don't suggest Lascanons, they are terrible because of his invuln.

Magnus loses a lot with the TS codex.

1) -1 to hit against BS4 is mathematically equivalent to reroll 1 on 3++, but is worse against BS3+
2) Changeling no longer gives him -1 to hit, so he is even more vulnerable turn 1.
3) Fixed warlord trait means that he longer has 6+++ (can get it back with changeling)
4) He know needs to cast 3 powers turn 1 (+1 inv, -1 hit, warp time), which means no more smite and higher chances to fail one.

He also increased in cost by 30 points.

Good to see that he gets toned down a bit!
But are you sure about your first statement?
I compared a 10 man Skitarii Vanguard squad before and after the changes and their expected dmg went down (from about 1.8 to 1.6)

RR1 on 3++ means that you reroll half your fails and succed 66% of time, so you save 33% of what would have hurt you.

A -1 to hit brings your succesfull rolls on a D6 from 3 to 2, so you are again "saving" 33% .

Take a small detachment of Sisters, for 1 CP they can deny any psychic test on a 4+.

 davidgr33n wrote:
Take a small detachment of Sisters, for 1 CP they can deny any psychic test on a 4+.

I'm really tempted to build a soup detachment, either a patrol or battalion, with Celestine, a retibutor squad with heavy bolters, and then assassins and infantry squads. Four heavy bolters that shoot twice a turn are tasty.

 Polonius wrote:

 davidgr33n wrote:
Take a small detachment of Sisters, for 1 CP they can deny any psychic test on a 4+.

I'm really tempted to build a soup detachment, either a patrol or battalion, with Celestine, a retibutor squad with heavy bolters, and then assassins and infantry squads. Four heavy bolters that shoot twice a turn are tasty.

It would be a powerful detachment, unfortunately the 4+ psychic test stratagem requires a pure Sisters detachment.

 davidgr33n wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 davidgr33n wrote:
Take a small detachment of Sisters, for 1 CP they can deny any psychic test on a 4+.

I'm really tempted to build a soup detachment, either a patrol or battalion, with Celestine, a retibutor squad with heavy bolters, and then assassins and infantry squads. Four heavy bolters that shoot twice a turn are tasty.

It would be a powerful detachment, unfortunately the 4+ psychic test stratagem requires a pure Sisters detachment.

It's a good idea, but unfortunately I have no room for an pure Sisters detachment.
I could make my AdMech detachment Graia, they got the same stratagem, but I'm not quite convinced by their Forgeworld dogma.


What's everyone's opinion on Greyfax? Denying 2 powers with +1 could be handy agains Magnus. Plus her LD bubble is also nice.

I actually play Graia as my admech to support my IG superheavy tanks.

The dogma is only 'meh' but since it's two enginseers and 15 skitarii, the dogma is not what I am bringing them for.

The psychic defense is absolutely ACE. It's literally an in-your-pocket auto-deny if you want to spend 2 CP (one on the stratagem and one on a re-roll) of ANY power. I've nuked Mortarion by denying Miasma of Pestilence, for example.

It also gives me access to the +1 to-repair-rolls Warlord Trait and the Tech-Adept stratagem, meaning my Warlord repairs between 4 and 8 wounds a turn if I have a superheavy that really needs the attention.

I took Graia as the FW because it's the most 'supporty' of them all; the other Forge Worlds might have better dogmas for a mechanicus army but the Graia forge world is the only FW whose stratagem actually helps anyone else. (Unless you count Metallica but their stratagem is bupkis).