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Iam going back to square one ok. i have been playin for 2 months now. I have spent 500 bucks and no matter what i do my army list stink. iam 0 and 10 ever battle i change my list so i can get better units in my army nothing helps landriders nope more preds nope. last list was all mech and i didnt get half way up the table be for i was smoked then stick in open with what was left my plan gone and no way to win. i under stand how each unit works and all that. but i seem to not get my army one the table to do what it should like a tank charge should get somthing across the table. now i dont even want to play any more and that stinks i realy like this game but not how my army fight on the table. looking for a good list of plan jane marines list at 1500 pts as that what the play at my store.

Hi frogy27,

Why don't you post a list, so we can take a look at it and give you ideas based on that - it'll also let us see sort of what you're thinking, too.

1Chaplain term armour
ten man tac squad flamer and missile launcher sarg chain sword rhino
ten man tac squad flamer and missile launcher sarg chain sword rhino
ten man tac squad plasma gun missile launcher sarg plasma power fist drop pod
5 man terminator squad one power sword 4 power fist lead by chaplain all storm bolters
dreadnought multi melta storm bolter drop pod
predator twin linked lascannon lascannon on the side storm bolter hunter killer missle
pred auto cannon hb
5 man dev squad 2 lascannon 2 missle launchers razorback with twin las
1landraider with termys in it


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Main goal is to charge across table and drop pod Dn next to enemy army

Ok, I'm not too familiar with vanilla marines, but I'll give it a shot here. Sorry in advance, this is going to be novel-length.

There are basically two types of units: "shooty" and "choppy". You want to take ranged weaponry on your shooty units, and melee weaponry on your choppy units. Look through your codex and divide all of your options up into those two categories - taking a decent mix of the two is absolutely vital to building any effective list.

First, you need to specialize your squads. The flamer/missile launcher comes in the tac squad boxes because it's a horrible choice, so GW knows people will need to buy more "special" models at a higher price.

To specialize tac squads, you have to give up something. Sure, you may take a special and a heavy weapon, but there's a difference between may take and must take. What do you want each element of your army to do?

If you want them to assault, then take an assault squad with 2 special weapons. If you want them to shoot, take a tac squad with a heavy weapon - special weapons optional.

Consider the following specialized units:

9x Assault Marines (2x flamer)
- Assault Sergeant (bolt pistol/power weapon)
(225 points)

9x Tactical Marines (Missile Launcher)
- Tactical Sergeant (Storm Bolter)
- Razorback (Lascannon/TL Plasmagun)
(240 points)

The best way to tell if you've specialized your unit correctly is the range on their weapons. Consider the template size for a flamer - roughly 9 inches (I believe, I don't have one right in front of me at the moment). The range on a pistol is 12". So you see that you'll often be firing all of the weapons at the same target at the same time.

Now consider the ranges on the tactical squad:
Bolters: 24" (rapid fire)
Missile Launcher: 48"
Lascannon: 48"
TL Plasmagun: 24" (rapid fire)
Storm Bolter: 24" Assault 2

Sure, some of the weapons are twice the range of the others, but that's alright - shooty units are where you want all of your long ranged anti-tank weaponry to end up.

I know the codex says that tactical squads are the be-all end-all unit for marines, but the codex lies. Tac squads are shooty elements - you want them to sit in cover and/or on objectives and shoot whatever comes in range; especially if you take a heavy weapon. Heavy weapons are wastes of points if you have to keep repositioning your squad, as they can't move and fire in the same turn. That's pretty much all tac squads are good for at the beginner/intermediate level (there are some advanced things you can do with them, but it's too difficult to explain without drawing diagrams or actually showing you with the models themselves, neither of which I can do).

So there's your first mistake - trying to charge your opponent with tactical marines. That's the equivalent of throwing a water balloon into a wood chipper and expecting the balloon to not only stay un-popped, but also expecting the water balloon to break the wood chipper.

Rhinos aren't all that survivable. Take them, but don't expect them to last and don't get upset when they get destroyed early on. Move 12" first turn, pop your smoke launchers, and if your rhino survives to turn 2, move another 12" and disembark them, then keep the rhino in front of the unit to block LOS for as long as possible until it gets popped.

Terminators.

Shooty terminators aren't worth the points cost - the only reason to take a unit of storm bolter terminators is so you get access to the rather amazing cyclone missile launcher. Here is where you consider wargear - weapons that are designed to be used in close combat are the only ones you should be taking into close combat, and nothing else. Sure, shooty terminators get a power fist, which is meant for CC, but they've also got a storm bolter - so the range difference applies. You're either wasting the storm bolters by charging, or wasting the power fists by shooting, and the objective is to be able to use everything in your unit at the same time, if at all possible (barring anti-tank weapons, pretty much).

Land Raiders are always a decent choice in any game of high enough points value. At low point values (1500 and below, generally), don't take them. Also, the Crusader variant is the best one for delivering terminators to where you want them to be; it's pretty much the only way your terminators will ever get access to the benefits of frag grenades.

Dreadnoughts.

Vanilla marine dreadnoughts are funny beasts. Think of them like terminators, only with armor values instead of saving throws as far as what you should equip them with is concerned. In other words, take two guns on them instead of one gun and one DCCW. Twin-linked autocannons work well with missile launchers (which are a special case that I'll discuss a bit further down). You also want to keep them far, far away from combat if at all possible, and just let them take potshots at transports and light armored tanks - rhinos, razorbacks, whirlwinds, etc... that's what you want to target with your dreads, then work on infantry after that. Don't take drop pods for them unless you're futzing with the drop pod assault rules - and even then, don't use the drop pod to drop the dread itself into close range of your opponent.

Predators.

Contrary to what people think when they hear the word tank, in 40k, "tanks" are nothing more than stationary fire platforms that can reposition themselves without giving up shots from their heavy weapons. Here's my rule of thumb on vehicles: if it can't carry models, then leave it sitting in one place as a firing platform for the useful weapons that it carries in lieu of troops.

The Las/las predator. This is a bit overcosted - most of the armor you're going to face in 40k can be popped (penetrated) by s7, so keeping the free autocannon is never a bad thing. Take the lascannon sponsons though, as that'll get you past the av13 stuff that some armies will throw at you (predators, leman russ, etc). Contrariwise, the ac/hb pred.

The autocannon/heavy bolter predator is, IMO, not worth the points. Predators are meant to sit back and shoot, not be an in-your-face element. They can't carry models, but they can carry heavy weapons.

Devastator squads.

Having 2 lascannons and 2 missile launchers sounds like a good idea at first, but unless you're Longfangs, it really isn't. Missile launchers are cheap and effective against multiple targets, unlike lascannons which are expensive and really lose their oomph if you're shooting them at an infantry unit.

The Razorback with TL lascannon isn't a horrible choice, but a single lascannon and TL plasmaguns is a far better turret choice. This is because it provides some semi-"defensive" weapon shots as your opponent comes into range of the plasmaguns. Also, one weapon destroyed result doesn't completely neuter the entire vehicle's offensive capability.

I'll divide this novel into separate posts here, so that it doesn't get too terribly wall-o-texty. Next up: Discussing how to categorize weapon choices and properly outfit units so they can do what they're meant to do.

OK i have given all my tac units flamers and ml is that what cums in the box that what the get i dont like the plasma gun our melta gun proxyd it people just stand away and assualt marines stink soi marines have no CC units worth tanking and tac squads and scouts are troops i dont have any assualt troop picks which is dumb

I would recommend combat squad'ing your tac marines, send half with flamer and sarge into melee and leave the middle launcher and friends in the back field on a home objective. Look into getting Thunderhammers and Storm Shields (scibor miniatures has some cool aftermarket shields)

...Very few armies have both workable assault Troops and workable CC Troops (Dark Eldar, Tyranids, and Grey Knights might be it). Vanilla Space Marines' strength is in versatility. You have Vanguard Veterans and assault Terminators, who can hold their own in close combat, and you have Tactical Marines, vehicles, and Devastators, who are decent at providing supporting fire, but neither is going to be anywhere near as effective as a specialized assault/shooty unit from another army. The trick is to throw your strengths at the other guy's weaknesses, shoot the assault units, assault the shooty units.

I don't see too much wrong with list construction in general there, you should be able to handle a lot of enemies if you use the troops you've got effectively. Hold the firebase units (the two Rhino-mounted Tactical squads, the Predators, and the Devastators) back away from the enemy and shoot them up, move the Land Raider up the field and drop the Drop Pods in to support it when you make the Reserves roll.

Assault Marines do stink, small Vanguard Veteran units stink somewhat less (for a similar points cost, you get the same number of attacks with better weapons and the ability to assault after deep striking). If you really have your heart set on making an assault-oriented army, consider using the Blood Angels or Space Wolves rules; both of those are rather more assault-oriented than the regular Space Marine Codex.

If youve only played 10 games i suggest dropping the level for a few weeks.
Play 2 games at 1000/1250 each time instead of 1 at 1750.

Also dont change the list every game otherwise a bit of bad luck with a decent unit and you'll give up on it.
Keep the list for a couple of games otherwise you wont learn trom the mistakes you made.

Otherwise good advice above

I use my rhino tac squads to get close to the enemy to shoot our take ground now when my tac squads get out to shoot they cant seem to kill more then 3 our 4 guys. now do assualt squads with out jump packs count as troops


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Oh i have used squads split up but then i get take apart pices by pices

No i think in blood angels but not in marines

I think tac squads be more of use if the could have more options with them like arm them for c&c to

i think 3 ten man tactical units is too many for what you using them for.
They are not the best unit in the book but more flexible. Think of them as your swiss army knife. I know you dont wanna split them but its part of thier "tactic"
They can combat in c&c or stay as 10 for annihilation.

A few simple changes may help. Try losing a few points somewhere. Dreads dont always need pods. The land raider termies and chaplain is 1/3 of the army in one ineffective unit. The guns on them are worthlesd in there if you want combat with them use c/c termies. If you do they wont need the chaplain. He or another HQ would be better off helping one of the tactical squads.

The predator with all lascannons is pricey. Try autocannons instead and any tactical squads charging foward can take meltas to take some anti-tank pressure off the predator. Also devs are very pricey and fragile only 2 wounds to lose effectiveness. The cheapest infantry lascannons are sternguard but id say use trimmed points to spend on land speeders or powerfists on a sergeant.

I can really write a list as i just sold most my codexes before gw brings out 6th and they all get worthless.