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Keeping the Heavy Bolter Str 5/Ap4 how would you fix it? (Mostly looking from a Space Marine perspective)

1. Make it more like the Splinter Cannon
Assault 2/Heavy 3(or 4)

2. Power Armoured Models with Heavy Bolters are relentless (or some such...maybe may fire but not assault)

Onward.

Make it STR 5 AP 5 assault 3 and shoot 18" and come on everything.
Don't complain.

The heavy bolter is fine as it is. What really hurts it is the easy access to cover that everything gets. I think cover should be weakened a bit, perhaps instead of the standard 4+ cover save for most terrain, bring it up to 5+. This would go a little way toward making the heavy bolter a viable choice again.

Lightcavalier wrote:Keeping the Heavy Bolter Str 5/Ap4 how would you fix it? (Mostly looking from a Space Marine perspective)

1. Make it more like the Splinter Cannon
Assault 2/Heavy 3(or 4)

2. Power Armoured Models with Heavy Bolters are relentless (or some such...maybe may fire but not assault)

Onward.

pretty sure something like option 1 is already in the works
either:
36" heavy 3
or
24" Assault 2 would bring it in line with the splintercannon exactly.

I think the range reduction is crucial to making it balanced.

helium42 wrote:The heavy bolter is fine as it is. What really hurts it is the easy access to cover that everything gets. I think cover should be weakened a bit, perhaps instead of the standard 4+ cover save for most terrain, bring it up to 5+. This would go a little way toward making the heavy bolter a viable choice again.

Thats the way it was in previous editions, Standard was 5+, grass was 6+, and fortifications were 4+. Current edition shifted everything one better.

helium42 wrote:The heavy bolter is fine as it is. What really hurts it is the easy access to cover that everything gets. I think cover should be weakened a bit, perhaps instead of the standard 4+ cover save for most terrain, bring it up to 5+. This would go a little way toward making the heavy bolter a viable choice again.

How about volume fire removes or lessens cover. It makes sense, if there is a literal wall of gunfire coming towards you some bushes obscuring their view of you won't keep you from getting hit. Perhaps for every 30 shots a unit puts out it lessens a cover save roll by -1 (meaning that 4+ cover effectively becomes 5+ cover), for every 40 shots a unit puts out it lessens a cover save roll by -2, 50 shots by -3, 60 shots by -4, and 70 shots by -5 (if someone somehow got a 2+ cover save perhaps sitting behind fortifications with the stealth USR). It would allow armies like guard to benefit from cover, let armies that are firing lots of low AP weapons still have a good chance of killing soft targets like Guard or Orks. A blob of Guard infantry could easily put down enough fire to ignore cover saves, but shot of killing other Guard it won't help much because everyone still gets an armour save.

What's wrong with the Heavy Bolter?

Jefffar wrote:What's wrong with the Heavy Bolter?

Nothing specifically, with the IG however autocannons generally win as heavy weapon teams since they are the same cost, a longer range, and have the ability to pop transports for only one less shot. The only thing that might benefit the HB is making it heavy 4 instead of 3.

Well that's a function of the main battlefield components we see. In a largely infantry environment we'd see a lot more HBs.

Jefffar wrote:Well that's a function of the main battlefield components we see. In a largely infantry environment we'd see a lot more HBs.

^^This. In the mechanized meta that largely exists in 5th edition, autocannons always win out. However, when I let someone borrow my orks, I load up on HBs. Played against a horde IG, havocs with ML and HBs ruled the day that game as well. The heavy bolter is fine where it is- the middle ground between your standard bolter and an assault cannon. It's other aspects of the game that have made it less useful.

I'd make it into something like a (more balanced) ranged version of the Blood Talon. For every Hit, you get another bonus Hit until you roll a 1. It should get only a couple bonus shots per round, but it could be potentially awesome.

Sigmundr wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Well that's a function of the main battlefield components we see. In a largely infantry environment we'd see a lot more HBs.

^^This. In the mechanized meta that largely exists in 5th edition, autocannons always win out. However, when I let someone borrow my orks, I load up on HBs. Played against a horde IG, havocs with ML and HBs ruled the day that game as well. The heavy bolter is fine where it is- the middle ground between your standard bolter and an assault cannon. It's other aspects of the game that have made it less useful.

Still, the only disadvantage of the autocannon over it is one shot, in its place it gets +2 strength and an extra 12" range. Autocannons are simply more versatile than heavy bolters and only lose against pure horde armies, which aren't that common. If I know that I am fighting Orks I might take heavy bolters instead, but if it is an all comers list or I am fighting marines or a force that is always going to be mechanized I would take the autocannon. It does better against vehicles, it does better against MCs, it has one less shot and added range.

Make it Heavy 6. Strenth 5 Ap4 Range 36. 3 Shots at BS 3 makes it next to worthless in a gaurd Infantry, espeacially against Marine armour.

My suggestion would be to give it a rule along the lines of this, Progressive Fire:

For every 12" less than the maximum range the target is at, the Heavy Bolter gains +1 to its rate of fire.
Therefore, for example, if firing at a target 24" away, the heavy Bolter would be a Heavy 4 weapon.

This is to represent the heavy Bolter as a supressive fire weapon, with the enemy coming under increasing fire as they close. This keeps the Heavy Bolter as a cheap, heavy weapon that specialises in anti-infantry, particular at shorter ranges, such as the optimum ranges of Space Marines: 12"-24".

I'll go with the effect of cover in 5th edition, removing 1/2 the effectiveness of a large portion of shooting in a given game. Now, if GW has the balls to make cover a modifier to hit and change the ENTIRE meta of 40k, then we're going somewhere.

I thought it was about the only gun that didnt need fixing

Yeah, Heavy bolters are sweet. Bs3 variants aren't great, but Imperial guard aren't supposed to be as reliable as Space Marines, so it makes sense for it to me more effective in a Marine's hands.

Just Dave wrote:My suggestion would be to give it a rule along the lines of this, Progressive Fire:

For every 12" less than the maximum range the target is at, the Heavy Bolter gains +1 to its rate of fire.
Therefore, for example, if firing at a target 24" away, the heavy Bolter would be a Heavy 4 weapon.

This is to represent the heavy Bolter as a supressive fire weapon, with the enemy coming under increasing fire as they close. This keeps the Heavy Bolter as a cheap, heavy weapon that specialises in anti-infantry, particular at shorter ranges, such as the optimum ranges of Space Marines: 12"-24".

I quite like this idea.

They could change rapid fire to +1 shot at close range (12"), normal rate of fire at max range.

make Bolters Rapid Fire 1, Heavy Bolters Rapid Fire 3 etc. That way, they can move and shoot, too, albeit at a reduced range.

Personally, I do think that the heavy Bolter needs a change; rarely is a Heavy Bolter taken for its merits as a weapon or its damage output, but due to it either being cheap or the basic weapon (e.g. Bolterback/ Destructor Predator; the main-to-only use it usually sees).
Obviously a problem with upgrading the Heavy Bolter is that it is included in so many other Codices, whilst I can't really speak for the Imperial Guard or SoB Codices due to my inexperience with them, it still doesn't seem to be included much/at all in any of these Codices(including IG & SoB).
The only exceptions I can really think of are Grey Knight Razorbacks with Psybolt Ammo, Dakka Preds and Sister of Battle Retributors, the latter of whom are rarely used anyway, and the former of whom rely on Psybolt Ammo.

Just Dave wrote:Personally, I do think that the heavy Bolter needs a change; rarely is a Heavy Bolter taken for its merits as a weapon or its damage output, but due to it either being cheap or the basic weapon (e.g. Bolterback/ Destructor Predator; the main-to-only use it usually sees).
Obviously a problem with upgrading the Heavy Bolter is that it is included in so many other Codices, whilst I can't really speak for the Imperial Guard or SoB Codices due to my inexperience with them, it still doesn't seem to be included much/at all in any of these Codices(including IG & SoB).
The only exceptions I can really think of are Grey Knight Razorbacks with Psybolt Ammo, Dakka Preds and Sister of Battle Retributors, the latter of whom are rarely used anyway, and the former of whom rely on Psybolt Ammo.

yes, making it heavy 6 or something would further break GK into win mode.

Really it doesnt NEED fixing, the meta needs fixing.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:I'd make it into something like a (more balanced) ranged version of the Blood Talon. For every Hit, you get another bonus Hit until you roll a 1. It should get only a couple bonus shots per round, but it could be potentially awesome.

This could be interesting, more like the old 3-sided die they used to have. However, some would call it OP especially if your dice get hot and you rack up 10+ hits.

Just Dave wrote:
Obviously a problem with upgrading the Heavy Bolter is that it is included in so many other Codices, whilst I can't really speak for the Imperial Guard or SoB Codices due to my inexperience with them, it still doesn't seem to be included much/at all in any of these Codices(including IG & SoB).

Heavy bolters are everywhere in the IG codex, the problem is that they are in vehicles where they are overshadowed by the main weapon (eg. Leman Russ), or there are simply better options (Plasma Cannon sponsons for the Russ and autocannons for heavy weapon squads).

Exergy wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Personally, I do think that the heavy Bolter needs a change; rarely is a Heavy Bolter taken for its merits as a weapon or its damage output, but due to it either being cheap or the basic weapon (e.g. Bolterback/ Destructor Predator; the main-to-only use it usually sees).
Obviously a problem with upgrading the Heavy Bolter is that it is included in so many other Codices, whilst I can't really speak for the Imperial Guard or SoB Codices due to my inexperience with them, it still doesn't seem to be included much/at all in any of these Codices(including IG & SoB).
The only exceptions I can really think of are Grey Knight Razorbacks with Psybolt Ammo, Dakka Preds and Sister of Battle Retributors, the latter of whom are rarely used anyway, and the former of whom rely on Psybolt Ammo.

yes, making it heavy 6 or something would further break GK into win mode.

Really it doesnt NEED fixing, the meta needs fixing.

Ah yes, good spot, my exact words were to make it heavy 6.
The Bolterback isn't the GK main reason for winning, whilst a boost to the heavy Bolter could lead to a price increase, reducing Razorback spam.

Buttons wrote:

Just Dave wrote:
Obviously a problem with upgrading the Heavy Bolter is that it is included in so many other Codices, whilst I can't really speak for the Imperial Guard or SoB Codices due to my inexperience with them, it still doesn't seem to be included much/at all in any of these Codices(including IG & SoB).

Heavy bolters are everywhere in the IG codex, the problem is that they are in vehicles where they are overshadowed by the main weapon (eg. Leman Russ), or there are simply better options (Plasma Cannon sponsons for the Russ and autocannons for heavy weapon squads).

Yeah, that's what I think is the problem with the Heavy Bolter; even with frequent opportunity, its rarely taken, which suggests to me it needs some kind of change.

Just Dave wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Personally, I do think that the heavy Bolter needs a change; rarely is a Heavy Bolter taken for its merits as a weapon or its damage output, but due to it either being cheap or the basic weapon (e.g. Bolterback/ Destructor Predator; the main-to-only use it usually sees).
Obviously a problem with upgrading the Heavy Bolter is that it is included in so many other Codices, whilst I can't really speak for the Imperial Guard or SoB Codices due to my inexperience with them, it still doesn't seem to be included much/at all in any of these Codices(including IG & SoB).
The only exceptions I can really think of are Grey Knight Razorbacks with Psybolt Ammo, Dakka Preds and Sister of Battle Retributors, the latter of whom are rarely used anyway, and the former of whom rely on Psybolt Ammo.

yes, making it heavy 6 or something would further break GK into win mode.

Really it doesnt NEED fixing, the meta needs fixing.

Ah yes, good spot, my exact words were to make it heavy 6.
The Bolterback isn't the GK main reason for winning, whilst a boost to the heavy Bolter could lead to a price increase, reducing Razorback spam.

Buttons wrote:

Just Dave wrote:
Obviously a problem with upgrading the Heavy Bolter is that it is included in so many other Codices, whilst I can't really speak for the Imperial Guard or SoB Codices due to my inexperience with them, it still doesn't seem to be included much/at all in any of these Codices(including IG & SoB).

Heavy bolters are everywhere in the IG codex, the problem is that they are in vehicles where they are overshadowed by the main weapon (eg. Leman Russ), or there are simply better options (Plasma Cannon sponsons for the Russ and autocannons for heavy weapon squads).

Yeah, that's what I think is the problem with the Heavy Bolter; even with frequent opportunity, its rarely taken, which suggests to me it needs some kind of change.

Simply making it heavy 4 would fix it for the IG codex, with vehicles it is just added in there because, but with HWT in squads heavy 4 would give it double the horde killing potential of an autocannon and allow a HWS with heavy bolters to put out 12 shots per turn.

Tun_Tau wrote:Make it STR 5 AP 5 assault 3 and shoot 18" and come on everything.
Don't complain.

I apologize for such a juvenile comment but 'come on everything' in this post makes me think of a horrible special rule that applies to some terrible slaanesh demon prince that we all know theoretically exists in the universe but could never be printed by GW.

As much as this went of the guard deem end....I was really more concerned as to how to make the HB viable in a tactical squad.

Lightcavalier wrote:As much as this went of the guard deem end....I was really more concerned as to how to make the HB viable in a tactical squad.

Well, this is the change (see below) I'm going to put in my Space Marine Fandex, as it makes the Heavy Bolter more viable at the Tactical Squads optimum ranges, an idea further supported by another change that'll be introduced.

Just Dave wrote:My suggestion would be to give it a rule along the lines of this, Progressive Fire:

For every 12" less than the maximum range the target is at, the Heavy Bolter gains +1 to its rate of fire.
Therefore, for example, if firing at a target 24" away, the heavy Bolter would be a Heavy 4 weapon.

This is to represent the heavy Bolter as a supressive fire weapon, with the enemy coming under increasing fire as they close. This keeps the Heavy Bolter as a cheap, heavy weapon that specialises in anti-infantry, particular at shorter ranges, such as the optimum ranges of Space Marines: 12"-24".

helgrenze wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:I'd make it into something like a (more balanced) ranged version of the Blood Talon. For every Hit, you get another bonus Hit until you roll a 1. It should get only a couple bonus shots per round, but it could be potentially awesome.

This could be interesting, more like the old 3-sided die they used to have. However, some would call it OP especially if your dice get hot and you rack up 10+ hits.

Yeah one of my friends tested it out and got 26 hits! That's extremely unlikely though, like probably <1% chance. On average you'll be getting around 2-6 hits.

Buttons wrote:

Jefffar wrote:What's wrong with the Heavy Bolter?

Nothing specifically, with the IG however autocannons generally win as heavy weapon teams since they are the same cost, a longer range, and have the ability to pop transports for only one less shot. The only thing that might benefit the HB is making it heavy 4 instead of 3.

Autocannon- better vs light vehicles, worse versus infantry. What's wrong with that?