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Testify wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Jefffar wrote:What's wrong with the Heavy Bolter?

Nothing specifically, with the IG however autocannons generally win as heavy weapon teams since they are the same cost, a longer range, and have the ability to pop transports for only one less shot. The only thing that might benefit the HB is making it heavy 4 instead of 3.

Autocannon- better vs light vehicles, worse versus infantry. What's wrong with that?

It is only 50% worse, which requires large numbers to eventually add up. If you have a single infantry squad and are tossing in a heavy weapon an autocannon generally wins because it adds the potential for versatility and only has one less shot than a heavy bolter. If you are fielding a blob army heavy bolters might begin to win out, but that is only because the versatility of autocannons becomes redundant and there is no need for a combined squad to fire 10 strength 7 shots at a single transport, however 15 strength 5 shots will begin to win out over the 10 strength 7 shots because you can reliably expect to start doing more damage to large numbers.

Unless I decided to start fielding a blob army (which I have considered, Vostroyans with hordes of infantry and heavy bolters) autocannons will pretty much always carry the day because for individual guns the differences are too minute to cause any real effect. Either that or autocannons could be boosted by 5 points per model making them less of a "just because" option and more of a "I specifically need +2 strength at the cost of 5 points and a shot because I am facing lots of vehicles of MCs."

There's another thread elsewhere on the forum where people are arguing autocannons aren't worth taking compared to lascannons most of the time. I think increasing the cost of autocannons any more would take them from marginally effective to too expensive pretty quickly. I'd rather see heavy bolters become Heavy 4 instead.

Just Dave wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Personally, I do think that the heavy Bolter needs a change; rarely is a Heavy Bolter taken for its merits as a weapon or its damage output, but due to it either being cheap or the basic weapon (e.g. Bolterback/ Destructor Predator; the main-to-only use it usually sees).
Obviously a problem with upgrading the Heavy Bolter is that it is included in so many other Codices, whilst I can't really speak for the Imperial Guard or SoB Codices due to my inexperience with them, it still doesn't seem to be included much/at all in any of these Codices(including IG & SoB).
The only exceptions I can really think of are Grey Knight Razorbacks with Psybolt Ammo, Dakka Preds and Sister of Battle Retributors, the latter of whom are rarely used anyway, and the former of whom rely on Psybolt Ammo.

yes, making it heavy 6 or something would further break GK into win mode.

Really it doesnt NEED fixing, the meta needs fixing.

Ah yes, good spot, my exact words were to make it heavy 6.
The Bolterback isn't the GK main reason for winning, whilst a boost to the heavy Bolter could lead to a price increase, reducing Razorback spam.

Buttons wrote:

Just Dave wrote:
Obviously a problem with upgrading the Heavy Bolter is that it is included in so many other Codices, whilst I can't really speak for the Imperial Guard or SoB Codices due to my inexperience with them, it still doesn't seem to be included much/at all in any of these Codices(including IG & SoB).

Heavy bolters are everywhere in the IG codex, the problem is that they are in vehicles where they are overshadowed by the main weapon (eg. Leman Russ), or there are simply better options (Plasma Cannon sponsons for the Russ and autocannons for heavy weapon squads).

Yeah, that's what I think is the problem with the Heavy Bolter; even with frequent opportunity, its rarely taken, which suggests to me it needs some kind of change.

If GW is planning on actually recosting all the HBs in all the codexes then make it heavy 9 for all I care.

As is now, Autocannons seem like the dummy choice because light armor is so common and horde are so uncommon. back in 3rd edition autocannons were laughed at.

Exergy wrote:
If GW is planning on actually recosting all the HBs in all the codexes then make it heavy 9 for all I care.

As is now, Autocannons seem like the dummy choice because light armor is so common and horde are so uncommon. back in 3rd edition autocannons were laughed at.

Au contraire, I had a friend who played Guard in 3rd edition and had two heavy weapon squads with three autocannons each. It wasn't something you saw people do very often, but we learned to fear them. He would almost always deploy them together and focus their fire on one target at a time, and just like now they shredded light vehicles and monstrous creatures. With 12 shots at once he would even put a hurt on horde and MEQ through weight of fire. The effect was probably more psychological than real, but they were intimidating.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

helgrenze wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:I'd make it into something like a (more balanced) ranged version of the Blood Talon. For every Hit, you get another bonus Hit until you roll a 1. It should get only a couple bonus shots per round, but it could be potentially awesome.

This could be interesting, more like the old 3-sided die they used to have. However, some would call it OP especially if your dice get hot and you rack up 10+ hits.

Yeah one of my friends tested it out and got 26 hits! That's extremely unlikely though, like probably <1% chance. On average you'll be getting around 2-6 hits.

That was actually the range of the HB with the "sustained fire dice"
How about this change: Instead of being "Heavy #"... Make it "Heavy d6".

helgrenze wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

helgrenze wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:I'd make it into something like a (more balanced) ranged version of the Blood Talon. For every Hit, you get another bonus Hit until you roll a 1. It should get only a couple bonus shots per round, but it could be potentially awesome.

This could be interesting, more like the old 3-sided die they used to have. However, some would call it OP especially if your dice get hot and you rack up 10+ hits.

Yeah one of my friends tested it out and got 26 hits! That's extremely unlikely though, like probably <1% chance. On average you'll be getting around 2-6 hits.

That was actually the range of the HB with the "sustained fire dice"
How about this change: Instead of being "Heavy #"... Make it "Heavy d6".

I really hate randomness, if I wanted pure randomness I would play Orks. In the end however it would only average 3 or 4 shots per turn, so no major change, just more randomness. I mean the times where you roll 3 sixes for a heavy weapon squad will be sweet, but overall I don't think it is worth it, it would simply add another dice roll and slow the game down.

Yeah, I agree. Until cover rules change, they just need more shots, end of. I always thought it was strange that the machine gun of the imperium of man was only heavy 3. You'd think they'd be able to put down a more substantial rate of fire than other weapons.

I mean, imagine how slowly a lascannon fires, what with the time taken for the battery to recharge the capacitors and for the gunner to re-acquire a target. You'd think that a machine gun on full auto would put out more than three shots in that same time period...

I suppose the real problem here is a problem with 5th ed in general. More and more, weapons are becoming niche in their usefulnes. In the current mech environment, you need lascannons or missile launchers, with everything else (with somewhat of an exception for autocannons) does absolutely nothing to their entire army. Likewise, said lascannons and missile launchers are worthless against troops.

It encourages people to spam one unit type as hard as possible, knowing that they can render their opponent's over-specialized killing power moot. Upping the heavy bolter's rate of fire only exacerbates this problem. If we want to undo this trend in 5th (other than waiting for 6th), what we need to do is to remake all heavy weapons so that they're all twice as expensive, but everything gains +1S and double their current number of shots. That way autocannons and missile launchers could be a credible anti-infantry weapon again, and heavy bolters could actually hurt light vehicles.

Ailaros wrote:Yeah, I agree. Until cover rules change, they just need more shots, end of. I always thought it was strange that the machine gun of the imperium of man was only heavy 3. You'd think they'd be able to put down a more substantial rate of fire than other weapons.

I mean, imagine how slowly a lascannon fires, what with the time taken for the battery to recharge the capacitors and for the gunner to re-acquire a target. You'd think that a machine gun on full auto would put out more than three shots in that same time period...

I suppose the real problem here is a problem with 5th ed in general. More and more, weapons are becoming niche in their usefulnes. In the current mech environment, you need lascannons or missile launchers, with everything else (with somewhat of an exception for autocannons) does absolutely nothing to their entire army. Likewise, said lascannons and missile launchers are worthless against troops.

It encourages people to spam one unit type as hard as possible, knowing that they can render their opponent's over-specialized killing power moot. Upping the heavy bolter's rate of fire only exacerbates this problem. If we want to undo this trend in 5th (other than waiting for 6th), what we need to do is to remake all heavy weapons so that they're all twice as expensive, but everything gains +1S and double their current number of shots. That way autocannons and missile launchers could be a credible anti-infantry weapon again, and heavy bolters could actually hurt light vehicles.

I always took it as less of only three shots being fired but that most of the shots are expected to miss and only three are expected to kill. Like with a rifle or bolter, one could kill two men with two shots, but it is much more likely that they fire half their magazine and they only expect to have maybe two shots (or bursts of fire) hit the target. So the lascannon only fires one shot but they focus a lot more on accuracy, with the heavy bolter they might fire 100 but due to the recoil only expect three to hit.

Ailaros wrote:Yeah, I agree. Until cover rules change, they just need more shots, end of. I always thought it was strange that the machine gun of the imperium of man was only heavy 3. You'd think they'd be able to put down a more substantial rate of fire than other weapons.
I mean, imagine how slowly a lascannon fires, what with the time taken for the battery to recharge the capacitors and for the gunner to re-acquire a target. You'd think that a machine gun on full auto would put out more than three shots in that same time period...
I suppose the real problem here is a problem with 5th ed in general. More and more, weapons are becoming niche in their usefulnes. In the current mech environment, you need lascannons or missile launchers, with everything else (with somewhat of an exception for autocannons) does absolutely nothing to their entire army. Likewise, said lascannons and missile launchers are worthless against troops.
It encourages people to spam one unit type as hard as possible, knowing that they can render their opponent's over-specialized killing power moot. Upping the heavy bolter's rate of fire only exacerbates this problem. If we want to undo this trend in 5th (other than waiting for 6th), what we need to do is to remake all heavy weapons so that they're all twice as expensive, but everything gains +1S and double their current number of shots. That way autocannons and missile launchers could be a credible anti-infantry weapon again, and heavy bolters could actually hurt light vehicles.

Heavy Bolter Bolts are the size of soda cans. A shell that size would weigh 1kg or more. Modern machine guns run 300-1200 rounds a minute on full auto. Even a battle ready marine cannot carry several tons of ammunition.

Next, Heavy Bolters are pretty good against light vehicles especially for their cost. Making them Str6 heavy6 would make them WAY too good for 10points.

Uh, space marine powered armour was made for carrying spaceship parts, and can and does easily haul dozens of tonnes around. Servos are awesome, no? Secondly, it allows the HB to be fired with no recoil, and at perfect, machine-controlled, human-brain assisted accuracy. This is why it is powerful in fluff. This is why people don't understand why it's useless in the game. This is also why I dont get why theyre only S4 instead of S7.

chrisrawr wrote:Uh, space marine powered armour was made for carrying spaceship parts, and can and does easily haul dozens of tonnes around. Servos are awesome, no? Secondly, it allows the HB to be fired with no recoil, and at perfect, machine-controlled, human-brain assisted accuracy. This is why it is powerful in fluff. This is why people don't understand why it's useless in the game. This is also why I dont get why theyre only S4 instead of S7.

Space marine battle armor was build to protect marines not carry around parts. Besides spaceships are light weight. Just because they can physically lift it doesnt mean they can carry it. An exceptional man can lift 300kg but could never hope to carry it on the battlefield. If nothing else when you quadruple the mass of something you quarter the acceleration and overall speed.
The fluff for everything is excessive, if we followed the fluff as you said everything would be strength 10 and ignore armor except when its the good guys being shot at in which case everything is str1 and nothign penetrates armor.

Might want to catch up on your PA history. It's ship construction suits from the dark ages. Also, mechanical parts don't care about stamina. Servos FTW again.

ATM the current trend of mass vehicles has rendered the Heavy Bolter less than optimal in most cases. Back in the day the sustained fire d4 wound causing version was a deadly beast. The pros and cons of differing weapons varies with each edition and at the moment the Heavy Bolter is at a some what low ebb. New rules changes in 6th (reduced cover) or a slight nerf to the effectiveness of vehicles could easily see the Heavy Bolter rise in effectiveness again.

I really like Just Dave's increase of firepower with each 12" reduction in range, but I think I'd have a hard time justifying that to my mostly ork-playing friend. Maybe give it an extra shot at half range (18") and call it good?

What myself and some buddies have done as a house rule for the Heavy Bolter is that it can shoot up to D6" behind threw cover.

So say you have a squad of Devastators (all with HB) and you want them to shoot at some ork Tank Bustas hiding behind a wall, if the orks were in range you could shoot at them, you would then roll a D6 and lets say a 2 is rolled, you were then able to hit any model 2" behind that wall (cover saves still applied) You could not shoot past the HB max range of 36" with this house rule though

I really like the way that in DoW they slow down targets. Suppression weapons are weak rapid fire weapons that slow movement.

In that vein I'd fix the heavy bolter like this:

Range 36"
Str 4
ap 5
Heavy 3
Suppression Weapon

Suppression Weapon: If an infantry unit suffers an unsaved wound from a suppression weapon then in next movement phase they move as if in difficult terrain. However they roll 3 dice and pick the highest. Non infantry units are not affected.

I'd hand out Suppression Weapons to lots of armies. Shuriken cannons, hurricane bolters, barb stranglers, big shooters....

"Supressing fire" mode. S5 AP- Heavy 6 Pinning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or just tack on Pinning and call it a day.

Thing is, leaderships are easy to pass or units are fearless and so pinning is rarely applied. And then, when it does go through, pinning is really, really powerful.

If a weapon has a secondary effect, like suppression, then I feel it should happen most of the time, or at least 50% of the time. Otherwise you can't plan for it or account for it. And to counterbalance this frequency, the effect itself is pretty weak, but still not bad.

I really like the suppressive fire idea. It would add a more tactical element to the game.
Everything has a chance of failing a pinning test. You just have to keep forcing them to do the test.

How about this

Suppressive Fire :

-Each hit from this weapon causes a pinning test.

Its a bit harsh, but hey, that's what happens when GW makes a rule that hardly works.

For ever wound maybe.

Or how about a unit hit by a Suppressive Fire weapon takes a Pinning Test with a -1 Ld modifier for every model removed as a casualty by the Suppressive Fire Weapon.

Well if its a suppressive weapon, I would honestly think it would pin them due to the volley of fire it produces rather than the damage it does per shot so honestly it could work like this:

S:4 Ap5 Heavy 3; Suppressive

Suppressive: For each hit take a pinning test, for each unsaved wound add a -1 modifier to the leadership of the unit.

And bump the cost up by 10 points.

Seriously, it's the Spess Mahrine's version of a Big Shoota- Heavy instead of Assault, but with better AP and fired with more precision. It don't need much of a boost.

Now the Assault cannon, on the other hand...

Anvildude wrote:And bump the cost up by 10 points.

Seriously, it's the Spess Mahrine's version of a Big Shoota- Heavy instead of Assault, but with better AP and fired with more precision. It don't need much of a boost.

Now the Assault cannon, on the other hand...

Honestly if Heavy bolters had the profile i mentioned with the same range and cost 10pts more, I'd buy them in a heartbeat at least for my Valks/Vendettas.
As far as the Assault cannon is concerned, i'm quite happy with it (but I am a Grey Knight player)

Just Dave wrote:My suggestion would be to give it a rule along the lines of this, Progressive Fire:

For every 12" less than the maximum range the target is at, the Heavy Bolter gains +1 to its rate of fire.
Therefore, for example, if firing at a target 24" away, the heavy Bolter would be a Heavy 4 weapon.

This is to represent the heavy Bolter as a supressive fire weapon, with the enemy coming under increasing fire as they close. This keeps the Heavy Bolter as a cheap, heavy weapon that specialises in anti-infantry, particular at shorter ranges, such as the optimum ranges of Space Marines: 12"-24".

I gotta say, I'm not typically a fan of your stuff but I really like this rule.

Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler

See, the thing about the Assault Cannon is that it doesn't really represent what it does. It ought to be more like Strength 4 AP- Heavy 8 Rending. It's firing a hail of smaller calibre rounds which might bust through something with a lucky shot or sheer volume, used for mowing down infantry and able to at least damage everything up to AV13 with, again, lucky hits.

I think the heavy bolter is fine as it is, it just that cover is a bit to good now. But that is just my 2 cents.

...Was the heavy bolter ever broken?

If you really want to fill the heavy-machine-gun niche better, perhaps make it Heavy 4/24" or Heavy 2/36" at the same points cost?

It's not broken, it's just useless. I've never found a reason to take one over a ML.

Depends on the situation and the squad. Lower-BS models facing down lots of light vehicles and infantry would probably do better with the Heavy Bolter over the Missile Launcher since it's more reliable; Heavy Bolters are actually cheaper than Missile Launchers in 4e-era Havoc/Devastator squads (which applies to Dark Angels and Chaos Marines these days); and there are plenty of situations where you've got the option for a Heavy Bolter but aren't comparing it to a Missile Launcher as an alternative (Leman Russ sponsons, Land Speeders, etc.).

The problem with the HB is the problem with the whole Heavy Weapons rules set. You have to move, wait a turn, then fire. This makes them totally useless in the assault. I say the following rules should be added. If moving there standing still there range 36" Heavy 3 if there moving there Range 24" Assault 2. Basically the gunner is firing while moving and walking the fire onto the target. It works but at less of a range.
This makes the HB a good choice.