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 techsoldaten wrote:


I think any Heavy Support option with melee skills is a good thing but will always be situational. Points-wise, he's efficient, but tactics-wise, it's rare that a Defiler sees combat.

140 points for something where the best weapon option is twin lascannons is a little expensive, don't you think?

I've always thought the Twin Lascannons on the Defiler was a trap. it costs the same 50 points to take as it does on a BS3+ Predator, and if you are just staying back shooting the battle cannon, las cannons, and a havoc launcher it begs the question of why not just take a Forgefiend or the aforementioned Predator? A cheap Reaper Autocannon or spending two more points for a Twin Heavy Bolter gives him some shooting and aren't expensive enough for you to feel bad about moving him into Close Quarters.

I feel like the Giant Crab really needs to get up close and personal to be worth it. Unlike his Ballistic Skill his melee doesn't degrade, he can get a decent number of attacks with the Scourge or you can opt for a lot of auto hits with a twin heavy flamer and a combi flamer. He is also more difficult to ignore if he is trundling towards the enemy, you can also shoot these weapons on the move somewhat effectively if you are willing to buff him by spending command points on Blasphemous Machines or DaemonForge, casting psychic powers like Prescience, and a nearby Chaos Lord or Prince for reroll 1s.

 akaean wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:


I think any Heavy Support option with melee skills is a good thing but will always be situational. Points-wise, he's efficient, but tactics-wise, it's rare that a Defiler sees combat.

140 points for something where the best weapon option is twin lascannons is a little expensive, don't you think?

I've always thought the Twin Lascannons on the Defiler was a trap. it costs the same 50 points to take as it does on a BS3+ Predator, and if you are just staying back shooting the battle cannon, las cannons, and a havoc launcher it begs the question of why not just take a Forgefiend or the aforementioned Predator? A cheap Reaper Autocannon or spending two more points for a Twin Heavy Bolter gives him some shooting and aren't expensive enough for you to feel bad about moving him into Close Quarters.

I feel like the Giant Crab really needs to get up close and personal to be worth it. Unlike his Ballistic Skill his melee doesn't degrade, he can get a decent number of attacks with the Scourge or you can opt for a lot of auto hits with a twin heavy flamer and a combi flamer. He is also more difficult to ignore if he is trundling towards the enemy, you can also shoot these weapons on the move somewhat effectively if you are willing to buff him by spending command points on Blasphemous Machines or DaemonForge, casting psychic powers like Prescience, and a nearby Chaos Lord or Prince for reroll 1s.

Yep. Begs to be in combat, gets shot up on the way there. Same as ever : )

Don't get me wrong, the Defiler is one of my favorite models in 40k. It's just that it competes with the Predator for space in my lists, and I know it's not going to see combat in most games. That makes it expensive for what it does.

TBH I think the FAQ helps Defliers as there will be fewer deep striking units in the game. Units don't generally like to land near one, maybe it will get more mileage from units being forced to move up the board.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 akaean wrote:
How are people feeling about the Defiler after Chapter Approved?

140 Base Cost is pretty cheap, and his wargear options are cheap to. 169 points gets you a Battle Cannon, Reaper Auto Cannon, Defiler Scourge, and a Combi Bolter. That feels pretty reasonably priced for 14 wounds with a 5++ and regeneration. BS/WS 4+ is pretty lame, but prescience, a nearby lord, or just using daemonforge can mitigate that to an extent, hes pretty scary in melee if he can close in as well.

Even as just a big distraction carnifex, he seems like he'd be worth it a lot of the time.

I think any Heavy Support option with melee skills is a good thing but will always be situational. Points-wise, he's efficient, but tactics-wise, it's rare that a Defiler sees combat.

140 points for something where the best weapon option is twin lascannons is a little expensive, don't you think?

I don't know, I run one in my tsons tournament lists and it always does well. Prescience and deamonforge stratagem means your hitting and wounding most things on 3's rerolling all failed hits and wounds. I have gone up against 2 laz preds with my defiler and won. I got first turn, hit and wounded with both laz cannon shots and 2 battle cannon hits, ended up doing 12 wounds destroying the first. Laz pred fired back, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 saved to invulnerable, took 4 wounds. Healed one, fired back, dropped 2nd to 3 wounds. Deamonforge and prescience is great, though I prefer tsons to also give heal d3 wounds from a spell and add one to wound rolls with a spell, nothing says your boned quite as nice as wounding land raiders on 2's.

It also gives you close combat back field support. Your not going to want to charge this thing, same game my opponent charged with a full squad ofnenlightened tzangoors (bow ones on disks) just to try and stop it. He did do 6 wounds to it but in return it crushed the tzaangors between his turn and mine, and thanks to healing I got 4 of those wounds back by end of the game.

Defilers are a serious threat if you invest in them, and an incredible distraction if you don't.

I’m very reluctant to invest my singe Prescience per turn on a unit that fires a random number of shots

If you’re going to do that, you’re pretty much committing to setting aside a CP for rerolling 1 or 2 on the number of battlecannon shots, making it 4.17 shots instead of 3.5

Assuming a T5-7 target with a 3+, that’s a yield of 0.7W

I never like to use my reroll for number of shots anyway, mainly do that on important heavy flamer attacks where I’ve at least not got to chance my luck on hit rolls. If I’m shooting at armour, I can’t help but think I’d like to save my reroll for a Lascannon damage than for number of AP-2 D3W shots to send jumping through hoops, even if it’s statistically a better call

Don’t get me wrong, it’s probably *viable*. Especially now a horde of Cultists provides the CP for a Daemon Forge and reroll

I'm hesitant to take multiple units of 10 Cultists due to the ITC secondary. My alternative is to take one 40 man blob in one battalion and one 30 man Bloodletter blob in a patrol and no other units over 10 models. When the Cultists get small I'll Tide them, denying the secondary for longer, and the Bloodletter blob has Warp Surge and an Icon to keep them alive longer.

The only issue is the need for CP. A second Batt of Renegades for 170 points is looking more and more desirable but completely eliminates the above plan to deny the secondary due to the additional troops.

This is why I look at ITC events and think ‘maybe’ then think how I’d build an army for them and then sigh & close the browser window

I prefer the ITC missions and rules to the book missions, but that's a conversation for another thread.

The above is just how I have to think when making armies to play ITC missions. At the end of the day it forces me to make a more diverse and complex army and I can keep the core of what I love about World Eaters. I just have to learn to also love Plasma, which I haven't had a chance to play with this edition.

What do you guys think of the Hellforged Land Raider Proteus compared to the default CSM Land Raider?

You lose Daemonic Machine Spirit, but gain the ability to replace the bolters with more lascannons or heavy flamers, and you also gain the Machina Malefica ability and become not-shabby in close combat. Thoughts?

You also get the Accursed Phylactery ability though that's ... of questionable utility considering the 4 transport slots it costs.

 lindsay40k wrote:
I’m very reluctant to invest my singe Prescience per turn on a unit that fires a random number of shots

If you’re going to do that, you’re pretty much committing to setting aside a CP for rerolling 1 or 2 on the number of battlecannon shots, making it 4.17 shots instead of 3.5

Assuming a T5-7 target with a 3+, that’s a yield of 0.7W

I never like to use my reroll for number of shots anyway, mainly do that on important heavy flamer attacks where I’ve at least not got to chance my luck on hit rolls. If I’m shooting at armour, I can’t help but think I’d like to save my reroll for a Lascannon damage than for number of AP-2 D3W shots to send jumping through hoops, even if it’s statistically a better call

Don’t get me wrong, it’s probably *viable*. Especially now a horde of Cultists provides the CP for a Daemon Forge and reroll

Again that's why I said if you want to invest in it it's awesome. If you cast flickering flames on it as well your wounding t8 on 3's with the battlecannon, 2's with the laz cannons. It's the idea of how effective it can be that can change your opponents plans. But it is what it is.

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'm hesitant to take multiple units of 10 Cultists due to the ITC secondary. My alternative is to take one 40 man blob in one battalion and one 30 man Bloodletter blob in a patrol and no other units over 10 models. When the Cultists get small I'll Tide them, denying the secondary for longer, and the Bloodletter blob has Warp Surge and an Icon to keep them alive longer.

The only issue is the need for CP. A second Batt of Renegades for 170 points is looking more and more desirable but completely eliminates the above plan to deny the secondary due to the additional troops.

Giving the renegades a heavy weapon team drops the units down to 9 models

 Brother Payne wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'm hesitant to take multiple units of 10 Cultists due to the ITC secondary. My alternative is to take one 40 man blob in one battalion and one 30 man Bloodletter blob in a patrol and no other units over 10 models. When the Cultists get small I'll Tide them, denying the secondary for longer, and the Bloodletter blob has Warp Surge and an Icon to keep them alive longer.

The only issue is the need for CP. A second Batt of Renegades for 170 points is looking more and more desirable but completely eliminates the above plan to deny the secondary due to the additional troops.

Giving the renegades a heavy weapon team drops the units down to 9 models

That...

...

Really?

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'm hesitant to take multiple units of 10 Cultists due to the ITC secondary. My alternative is to take one 40 man blob in one battalion and one 30 man Bloodletter blob in a patrol and no other units over 10 models. When the Cultists get small I'll Tide them, denying the secondary for longer, and the Bloodletter blob has Warp Surge and an Icon to keep them alive longer.

The only issue is the need for CP. A second Batt of Renegades for 170 points is looking more and more desirable but completely eliminates the above plan to deny the secondary due to the additional troops.

Giving the renegades a heavy weapon team drops the units down to 9 models

That...

...

Really?

Yes? It's been a problem for real Imperial Guard for a while. You have 9 models in the squad (which should cost therefore 36 points + weapon), but are charged for 10 because reasons, but you score like 9 models on an objective and lose one lasgun...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'm hesitant to take multiple units of 10 Cultists due to the ITC secondary. My alternative is to take one 40 man blob in one battalion and one 30 man Bloodletter blob in a patrol and no other units over 10 models. When the Cultists get small I'll Tide them, denying the secondary for longer, and the Bloodletter blob has Warp Surge and an Icon to keep them alive longer.

The only issue is the need for CP. A second Batt of Renegades for 170 points is looking more and more desirable but completely eliminates the above plan to deny the secondary due to the additional troops.

Giving the renegades a heavy weapon team drops the units down to 9 models

That...

...

Really?

Yes? It's been a problem for real Imperial Guard for a while. You have 9 models in the squad (which should cost therefore 36 points + weapon), but are charged for 10 because reasons, but you score like 9 models on an objective and lose one lasgun...

That's actually pretty great! Too bad Renegade Militia Squads are terrible or this would be a great way to get CP while denying your opponent points.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'm hesitant to take multiple units of 10 Cultists due to the ITC secondary. My alternative is to take one 40 man blob in one battalion and one 30 man Bloodletter blob in a patrol and no other units over 10 models. When the Cultists get small I'll Tide them, denying the secondary for longer, and the Bloodletter blob has Warp Surge and an Icon to keep them alive longer.

The only issue is the need for CP. A second Batt of Renegades for 170 points is looking more and more desirable but completely eliminates the above plan to deny the secondary due to the additional troops.

Giving the renegades a heavy weapon team drops the units down to 9 models

That...

...

Really?

Yes? It's been a problem for real Imperial Guard for a while. You have 9 models in the squad (which should cost therefore 36 points + weapon), but are charged for 10 because reasons, but you score like 9 models on an objective and lose one lasgun...

That's actually pretty great! Too bad Renegade Militia Squads are terrible or this would be a great way to get CP while denying your opponent points.

Yeah.

About that Hellforged Land Raider Proteus I mentioned earlier....

On the Hellforged Land Raider Proteus: why not just get a Spartan?

 andysonic1 wrote:
On the Hellforged Land Raider Proteus: why not just get a Spartan?

Price, I think. The Spartan is a Lord of War and 500 something points... ... ... ... *does math* like 488 or so, total, after havoc launcher. It also eats my models when I disembark. Being a Lord of War makes it difficult to squeeze into the 3 detachment limit.

The triple-twin-lascannon with havoc launcher is a full 406, more than two cultist squads cheaper. It's only Heavy Support, for better or worse. I don't know; what do you think? Is the Spartan worth it?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If I had to choose I would go with the Spartan since I run a lot of Berzerkers and they need a ride. If you just want a heavy weapons platform you might be better off with Havocs or a Rapier Laser Destroyer or Oblits.

 andysonic1 wrote:
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If I had to choose I would go with the Spartan since I run a lot of Berzerkers and they need a ride. If you just want a heavy weapons platform you might be better off with Havocs or a Rapier Laser Destroyer or Oblits.

What I am looking for is a "command tank" style thingy for a Dark Mechanicus army. The Spartan could work, but I don't know what other people's analysis of it vs. the Proteus would be.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'm hesitant to take multiple units of 10 Cultists due to the ITC secondary. My alternative is to take one 40 man blob in one battalion and one 30 man Bloodletter blob in a patrol and no other units over 10 models. When the Cultists get small I'll Tide them, denying the secondary for longer, and the Bloodletter blob has Warp Surge and an Icon to keep them alive longer.

The only issue is the need for CP. A second Batt of Renegades for 170 points is looking more and more desirable but completely eliminates the above plan to deny the secondary due to the additional troops.

Giving the renegades a heavy weapon team drops the units down to 9 models

That...

...

Really?

Yes? It's been a problem for real Imperial Guard for a while. You have 9 models in the squad (which should cost therefore 36 points + weapon), but are charged for 10 because reasons, but you score like 9 models on an objective and lose one lasgun...

You're paying for 10 because the HWT has 2 attacks, 2 wounds and a lasgun as well as the heavy weapon. It's still two guardsmen, they're just on the one base

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Price, I think. The Spartan is a Lord of War and 500 something points... ... ... ... *does math* like 488 or so, total, after havoc launcher. It also eats my models when I disembark. Being a Lord of War makes it difficult to squeeze into the 3 detachment limit.

The triple-twin-lascannon with havoc launcher is a full 406, more than two cultist squads cheaper. It's only Heavy Support, for better or worse. I don't know; what do you think? Is the Spartan worth it?

Ive been battlescribing some lists with it, as an alternative to a predator and a rhino in a Night Lords army, but that's mainly because of the Accursed Phylactery being a Ld rebuff and with a relatively wide reach as well. Which could be a lot of fun when combined with -3ld from NL, -1 from raptors, -1 from IoD and -2ld from butcher cannons for a potential -8ld total; just have to kill one or 2 and watch even ld9 melt. But I don't think these lists are 'competitive' and I haven't trialed them yet.

I'm also not certain the Butchers Cannon debuff stacks with the others though...

the.cobb wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Price, I think. The Spartan is a Lord of War and 500 something points... ... ... ... *does math* like 488 or so, total, after havoc launcher. It also eats my models when I disembark. Being a Lord of War makes it difficult to squeeze into the 3 detachment limit.

The triple-twin-lascannon with havoc launcher is a full 406, more than two cultist squads cheaper. It's only Heavy Support, for better or worse. I don't know; what do you think? Is the Spartan worth it?

Ive been battlescribing some lists with it, as an alternative to a predator and a rhino in a Night Lords army, but that's mainly because of the Accursed Phylactery being a Ld rebuff and with a relatively wide reach as well. Which could be a lot of fun when combined with -3ld from NL, -1 from raptors, -1 from IoD and -2ld from butcher cannons for a potential -8ld total; just have to kill one or 2 and watch even ld9 melt. But I don't think these lists are 'competitive' and I haven't trialed them yet.

I'm also not certain the Butchers Cannon debuff stacks with the others though...

So spartan is better? For non NL I mean

Hey all, my Google skills are failing me.
Could any tell me if forward operatists count towards deployed /not deployed for the purposes of 50% deployed?
Many thanks!

I believe they count as on the table since they are there before the 1st turn. They are not deep striking in. This is just my opinion, I don't have the book infront of me to read how it is worded.

I'm looking to run a leviathan dread and a chaos assault gunship full of noise marines (maybe a unit of zerkers). Questions questions questions.

Dread is a helbrute so gets legion strat - so alpha legion seems a no brainer(? - thinking going butcher cannon and bombard)

The chaos gunship doesn't quite care the same way - and I'm happy to drop it in a seperate detachment

Here's where I'm stuck - if I drop in a ton of units into the gunship lets assume I go second - should I be making it nurgle for miasma, tzeentch for weaver, or Slannesh for Delightful agonies? The question would then also apply to the dread who would probably benefit from one of these as well.

So far I've landed somewhere like - 8T on the dread means he will eat predominately lascannon shots - so maybe delightful agonies(?) - makes the 8T a third tankier and for the damage mitigation if I put a friendly warpsmith nearby it can be healed d3 per turn.

Chaos gunship go for the nurgle keyword and drop miasma on it to bring it to -1 / -2 (due to fly) to hit. Some people are rocking anti-air but if I pop it waaaay in the back and have it at -2 even dark reaps may be stretched to hit it. (due to range not the -2).. Or should I be sensitive to the fact it doesn't have an invul?

Ideally I'm running the noise marines I guess as alpha... but really want to take them as a troop choice (if going ITC maybe look at 3 x 9 units???). Also contemplating taking the mammoth size squad of 20 and using prec/VOTLW to go YOLO. If I am running them in the gunship - perhaps alpha legion isn't as important (does nothing under 12 inches)... not sure - thoughts?

i ve seen a list Nanavati would play at RTT is really this a list good enough to take on a tournament?

Can dread be healed by warpsmith? I thought only by eating people in melee

Orkswubwub - why not give the storm eagle a 5++ with Weaver?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nature's Minister wrote:
Can dread be healed by warpsmith? I thought only by eating people in melee

Can't be healed by smith IF it ate people in melee. Either/or

Dactylartha wrote:
Orkswubwub - why not give the storm eagle a 5++ with Weaver?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nature's Minister wrote:
Can dread be healed by warpsmith? I thought only by eating people in melee

Can't be healed by smith IF it ate people in melee. Either/or

This was my understanding as well but now that I am rereading it not so sure. Is this interpretation the consensus?

Models with Machina Malefica can’t regain wounds by any means other than inflicting wounds in close combat.

the.cobb wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Ive been battlescribing some lists with it, as an alternative to a predator and a rhino in a Night Lords army, but that's mainly because of the Accursed Phylactery being a Ld rebuff and with a relatively wide reach as well. Which could be a lot of fun when combined with -3ld from NL, -1 from raptors, -1 from IoD and -2ld from butcher cannons for a potential -8ld total; just have to kill one or 2 and watch even ld9 melt. But I don't think these lists are 'competitive' and I haven't trialed them yet.

I'm also not certain the Butchers Cannon debuff stacks with the others though...

So spartan is better? For non NL I mean

Yeah I think it might be, except the for eating 1/6 of the models in it, and being a LoW, as you said. More wounds and firepower and transport capacity for not much more points.

Having 1/6 of the beserkers/NMs inside would hurt a bit; could be fun with NMs though if they get to shoot as they die.